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We continue to lurch through our recovery, finally managing a somewhat productive conversation about the affair that didn't degrade into emotional overloaded shouting matches on both sides. However...

This week I asked a question from the BS to WS forum - was there a time when the switch went off in your head and you realized the hurt and damage you did to us and to me?

His answer: I didn't think anybody would be so hurt by it.

My reply: Anybody? Who else was hurt? Your MOW? Where there others involved I don't know about?? What other bodies???

His response: No, I meant you.

Mine: Then why didn't you say that, why say anybody instead of you? I'm sitting right here.....

His response: I don't know.

My response: Well. If you didn't know that I would be devastated by your betrayal and lying and all the choices you have made since discovery then you don't know me at all.

His response: Silence.

My response: Most WS take a year or three to have the reality and the fallout catch up and for them to realize what they have done. I'm worried that you will never get there.

His response: We are going to be fine.

My response: Silence and deep confusion. I am clearly not fine, not by a long shot.

Anyway. This conversation won't stop rattling around in my brain and I am really hung up on being referred to as anybody.

We have had many conversations where I stop him from answering specific questions with generalizations because that doesn't work for me and it is a trigger. I keep redirecting to the specifics of us, and our situation, and can't accept vague or obtuse answers. It makes me feel like he is still manipulating me and the flow of information. At the least, he is not putting a lot of thought into his responses.

My thoughts are that he is still abstracting or objectifying me and the A, and this is just further evidence he is a long way from accepting his actions and reaching remorse and empathy. Or evidence he is still compartmentalizing the A. He tries very hard to not talk about it and plays the I don't remember or none of that matters or that's all in the past cards. I won't play that game until it's in my past too, and I am on the slow train. His stance is that I overanalyze everything and make a big deal out of word choices. But I think a therapist would pick up on the distance he creates with his responses. Maybe it's a safety feature in his brain when things get close to painful truth to create some distance, as though he observed this happening and didn't cause it. I don't know.

Am I reading too much into word choice here? Anybody else have a spouse that uses confusing words to answer simple questions? Should I let this one go? Right now, I can't because it feels like it means something important, but I don't know what.

That's an emotionally charged conversation no matter how you slice it.

I'm going to sort of defend your WH here. I think that the A is done and nurtured in secrecy from the whole world. Anybody is you, your kids (do you have any?), OW's family, maybe friends or other loved ones that held him as a roll model. The affair is hidden from everyone. They do block out everyone and the initial lie is "No one gets hurt if no one finds out" but it isn't specific to the BS. That's my impression of the wayward thinking anyway.

I'm not saying you are wrong, or that being intentionally obtuse about "anyone" and mainly thinking about the BS isn't the case. I think this is part of how WS minimize to some degree by depersonalizing the damage and hurt. Good luck on working through this. Maybe help him realize his own self talk is often not completely honest.

TIF, thanks for the feedback, it was helpful.

There were no other bodies hurt here, our grown kids don't know, none of his friends or our family know to judge him, and my WH has made it clear that he doesn't care at all if he hurt her, she knew the rules. They both agreed no one was to ever know so they never considered anyone else but themselves for nine years of cheating and a few more years of lying to me. But they both knew that I was devastated and broken when I learned of the A and believed we were reconciling while they went deeper underground and never discussed saving their marriages. He certainly doesn't care about OBS, because MOW painted a bleak picture of him and their relationship, but I know that both their Facebook pages show the story of a happily married couple, just like ours did, with lots of compliments about our wonderful spouses. I don't know with certainty that AP told OBS, but I think she did because of the timing of his job change and their move. She did apologize for four people hurt, but only after I pointed out that she had expressed no regret or remorse in multiple exchanges with me. I wonder sometimes if either of them is capable of truly caring for anyone but themselves. At any rate, there is no logical reason for him to include others in that response, unless he had said I meant you and me, ie us. I know I'm overthinking it, but what you said is very important too... I don't think he is being honest with his self talk.

If I want to belabor the point, I might ask him again about it and if there might be something in his avoidance causing him to respond in an abstract way and not look at me and just say I can't believe how much I hurt you, and maybe a switch never went off but I get what I did and I'm so sorry. I'll bet anything he will say I don't know. Maybe that is the real problem, he didn't say what I wanted/needed him to say. He is not a good apologizer, and has complained more times about how much he has had to apologize (a thousand times!) than he has giving me an actual heartfelt apology (a handful). I'm still in the stages of looking for remorse I can trust, and true empathy for me, so I will try to remember I'm filtering everything he says through that judgement and need.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 7:28 PM, Tuesday, December 7th]

Your WH sounds like mine. Mine is very good at compartmentalising everything and using semantics to say, but not say things.

The way I read your post it sounds like your WH didn’t think about you as a part of the affair (I wasn’t a consideration in my WH at all during his affairs) as such he could ignore any pain his actions may have caused you. It’s a way of separating the real from the fantasy.

I now correct my WH as soon as he starts using language in this way in an effort to ensure he understands exactly what he did so he can own it and perhaps one day decide to help remedy it.

I hope you achieve this quicker than I have.

I think it's hard to give good advice without understanding the whole picture. So I have to ask - why are talks of the A degrading into shouting matches? What is he doing to challenge himself and become a safe partner to you? Has he FINALLY stopped TT'ing you? Would he take a polygraph to prove to you that you have the full truth if you wanted it and felt like he was still lying?

I think TiF has a point. But I also think that given your history with him, it's just as likely that your gut is right. Maybe it's not about him finding the perfect words to say in this instance and more like his demeanor is pressing on a general feeling you have had that he's not all in with R and he's not doing the work. It's like he doesn't "see" you and he doesn't give off a general feeling of showing up for you during this talk. You seem to be looking for reassurance and he's not stepping up to the plate in that regard. His word choice may be open to interpretation but it's possible that it's the ONE concrete thing you can point to and say, "AHA! That's it!" when his actions and words are more mixed. So what do his actions say? Is he being consistent and pro-R in what he does?

He is not a good apologizer, and has complained more times about how much he has had to apologize (a thousand times!) than he has giving me an actual heartfelt apology (a handful).

I can tell you this. If he has read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" he should know that phrases like "I've already said I'm sorry" are off limits and don't show remorse or provide the reassurance a BS is looking for. If he hasn't, he absolutely should read it and do his best to implement the advice in that book.

Time for help, thanks. It has taken way too long already. But I think you are right, that I was never a factor in his affair, he has been adamant that it wasn't about me, but also blames resentments for fueling his actions. I just want to know that I know the extent of his misdeeds and moral compromises and and that he has come to a comfort level with honesty with me. Hope we both get the conversations we are hoping for.

Nekonamida, hi, thanks for responding. The shouting matches are due to two things. One is his frustration with my not getting over it quicker and "badgering" him about the A, but any conversation is called badgering, and he has no patience for emotions. He is on the spectrum of personalities that doesn't really do emotions well, very analytical and engineer like. When he yells, he literally yells "I'm not yelling" and I have panic attacks when he is angry or unsupportive. The other reason we fight is because I'm not afraid of being honest in a forceful way with him now, and he is not used to the co-dependent people pleaser taking a back seat to this version of me that just won't stifle her feelings or settle for bullshit answers to hard questions. I push back hard now, and rightly so. Maybe I have a bit of an attitude, but he has really put me through a lot and any sane person would have left him, but I'm still willing to fight for this marriage and for us, even if it's ugly. I wouldn't mind the shouting if we were making progress, but he has started saying anything, often mean things to shut me down and end any discussions. He has admitted after the fact that he says things intentionally to hurt me because he considers any talk of his LTA shaming him and rubbing his nose in it. He admitted that he doesn't remember half of what he says during any of our talks. So, I am growing tired and angry about not making progress and I'm not backing down from what I need or deserve to stay with him. Fighting is new. We went 30 years without a fight like the ones we have a couple times a month now. We are both a bit frayed.

Many have asked why no poly for my peace of mind. He will not take one, he considers them pseudo-science, and I believe if anyone can game a poly it is him, so I haven't pushed for one. I have pushed for a timeline, but they went from 2009-2018 and he assured me all the details are gone and I'm not getting one beyond what the MOW gave me. I may not get over the timeline thing, because I have a lot of holes in the facts I've found and the stories I've been told. I also know it's past time wanting the whole story, the chapters I have are awful enough to know what I need to know. I'm more interested in what he was thinking or how he felt about us and her during those years, more than what they did or where they went.

You are correct, I am looking for reassurance and he can't/won't give it to me. I've actually asked for it when I'm feeling down and he said he's good for a hug, but he is not going to say things just to make me feel better, that feeling better is a choice I'm choosing not to make. He believes he is here now, choosing to be married and faithful and happy and I am the one holding us back. The truth is he has not put in any work beyond listening to a few podcasts the first year, and will not read, go to counseling or do any thing beyond assure me that he is done with infidelity. His words aren't comforting. The constant hugging and physical contact feels like love bombing a little, and I'm just looking for him to show me something I need to see, which is a commitment to change and complete honesty. I have all the transparency I could want, but none of that helps me understand what happened or the mental gymnastics he used to pull off so many years of betrayal and secrets.

I'm pretty adamant that I get to take as long as I need to get over this, I won't be hurried and that any attempts to rush me on this will make it take longer, and piss me off. I keep reminding him it might take as long to fix his marriage as he spent trashing it with poor choices. So I'm still in the 2-5 year window they say it takes to heal, but I'm giving myself the length of their affair to heal, halfway by that measure.

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate the different perspectives.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 8:38 PM, Tuesday, December 7th]

... he is not going to say things just to make me feel better, that feeling better is a choice I'm choosing not to make.

Imagine the cost of making someone you love feel better is some words. Imagine you are truly devoted and remorseful. Could you imagine intentionally choosing NOT to say something that would make them feel better that you know would help? Then for the cherry on top saying, "Feeling better is up to you!"

I know there is a lot of therapy self-help type advice that says you are responsible for your own happiness, but as it relates to dealing with your partner, there really truly is an alternative where they stop the behavior that is causing you to be unhappy. Your husband needs to understand the hurtful behavior before was the A itself, but the hurtful behavior now is the unwillingness to do what is needed to show remorse, devotion, and provide reassurance that he has become safe. The self-help remedy is to leave the relationship when you realize they are unwilling to stop hurting you.

So often it isn't the A itself that causes the D, it's the abysmal effort at R in the aftermath.

IMO, if he says things to hurt you and shut the conversation down, especially when you're trying to talk about how he has hurt you, that is abusive behavior. So clearly he is not working towards R. He is attempting to force you - in a harmful way - to rugsweep. I have to ask, why are you still trying to force him to R with you? Is leaving an option if he won't R?

This is Fine, funny story. I bought that book for us, I read it and gave it to him to read. He would not finish it, said he didn't need a book telling him he's an asshole. I tried a few more times, he would not read it, and actually got mad I kept bugging him about it. So I got madder and burned it in the fire pit. I am a book lover, never bend a page, but I burned that book in a fit of rage like an idiot, along with a heartbroken letter I gave him when I took off my rings. He wouldn't read that one either, because he knew it would be sad, and he wants to pretend we are fine. If you ask him we are fine. I'm the one who is a mess.

I have quoted from the book to him, told him he can't use that logic on me, it's not fair or appropriate if helping me heal is the goal here. I'm still working on getting things through to him I guess. I'm not sure of the timing on the book, but the A might have been still underground, not long over like they said when I gave it to him. He is a tough cookie. I've written long emails trying to explain my process or concerns to him, but he doesn't answer them or want to talk about them unless forced to. So I quit trying to communicate so much except for the conversations I make us have when I reach a break point or have a bad day. If we could have some talks that felt reassuring or productive it would really help me. I know a MC might be helpful here, but he would need IC before I would get back in a therapist room with him. We made that mistake early on. I'm considering getting back into IC to find a path to dealing with our very different needs and approaches to keeping this marriage intact. But it feels like I'd be asking them to help me change around his stubbornness if I choose to stay without having my needs met.

I might be painting an ugly picture, but our story is ugly. I look around at so many couples struggling in R when the WS does everything right, and mine does almost nothing right R-wise. If you didn't know about the LTA, you'd think he was the most loving and attentive husband you ever met. Just don't try to have a meaningful conversation with him about feelings or emotions. He will not engage and when pushed will get defensive and angry every time. To me, the anger is a huge red flag that he has some issues to work on. I think if he put as much effort into positive recovery steps as he does into fighting me over them, we'd already be there by now. He accepts blame for cheating and thinks saying I'm sorry, today is a new day, lets be happy should be enough for me. I'm still figuring out who he really is and what makes him tick and he is hating every minute of it and starting to blame me for the slow progress.

Wish me luck. I'm going to need it.

This is Fine, you nailed the root of my hurt. After everything, even now, I'm not worth a conversation or reassuring words. What a small price for most of us to pay. No wonder I am not choosing happy yet.

nekonamida, valid questions. Love? I know leaving is a choice I have, I can afford to and when I'm feeling hopeless, I like to imagine where I will go and where I will live next. But I want this life, the one we built together. We own our own business, we work together, we have lots of shared hobbies and interests, there's a lot to stay for. There's ample reasons to leave, too. I already think it's a miracle I'm still here. He has not made it easy, maybe not so much because he is cruel, but because he is incapable of typical self reflection, empathy and kindness - part personality, part horrific FOO coping techniques. I have called him on the abusive behavior and don't have many more fights in me before I will give up. I think I'm getting that part through to him, that he can get angry but he can't yell at me for his mess, or blame me for not having a heart of steel to deal with the heartache.

Why I won't stop pushing for R on my terms? Maybe because I feel I deserve the effort from him. Someone here told me over a year ago that I needed to get over this or get gone. Isn't there another option where he finally, eventually comes around to remorseful behavior? I'm giving him extra chances to find out because I want us to stay together. It's always a good reality check though, to ask myself what I'm doing here, and why.

WILA - we could be married to the same man.

I don't know that I have any advice. All I can do is say what has helped me - which is to emotionally detach and stop trying to spoon feed my WH my pain, my feelings, what I've learned, what I think will help, etc. After a bit of this -and realizing that I am the ONLY one trying to drive the bus to R - I turned to getting my D ducks in a row.... getting myself to a place where I can (in the words of the great Lizzo) "walk my fine ass out the door" at any time.

As I detached, I became clearer & clearer about the ways in which my WH does not "get it" or "own it" or do jack to "heal it". He is who he is, and he's entitled to be whatever kind of person he likes. Turns out that person is NOT -by a fucking longshot- healthy for me.

Months ago my IC said something along the lines of needing to feel "safe, seen and soothed" by our partner. I feel NONE of those things. Not bc he's a jackass, cuz he's not. So long as I'm rugsweeping, the day-to-day is perfectly fine. If I was so inclined, I could go right back to the M I had before dday, with sex and dates and companionship and solid intellectually stimulating conversation, and all the trappings (and, TBH, the CONVENIENCES) of M.

The problem is.... that's not the M I want today. Dday shook me to the core. He's not safe. I'm not seen. And his personality of logic and shame is not soothing to me... to the person I am TODAY, which is decidedly NOT the person I was on dday (thank Heaven!)

Now, we can say that you are nitpicking the language, or not.
The thing is, that IMO, the language matters not necessarily bc of the actual words used, but bc its a reflection of the WORK the WS has (or has not) done. The language shows the ability to REFLECT and be MINDFUL of the other person. It won't be perfect (cuz we are all, you know, human). But it can show that we are SEEN (bc they are trying to use language that reflects/attunes to our needs rather than language that reflects emotional laziness or trying to say what we want to hear so it can just stop), it can help to make us feel SAFE (bc the language reflects trust that we are important, that our comfort is - at least for a time - taking priority over their discomfort) and it can help SOOTH us, bc language that shows empathy is, well, comforting.

My suspicion is that most BS just struggle until that seen/safe/soothed stuff is addressed.. until the WS has the ability to be and SHOW empathy (which is, generally, via language). Again, it's not like they will get it perfect (that human stuff can be quite the PITA, right?) but when we can see EFFORT is when I believe those things will begin to click into place (not that I've personally experienced it, but I've done enough of my own work/learning to get a sense of what others do).

I don't think you see that effort. I sure don't, and it sounds like others on SI don't see it either.

So - what do YOU want with a spouse who can't or won't make that effort?

One is his frustration with my not getting over it quicker and "badgering" him about the A, but any conversation is called badgering, and he has no patience for emotions.

I wouldn't mind the shouting if we were making progress, but he has started saying anything, often mean things to shut me down and end any discussions.

He has admitted after the fact that he says things intentionally to hurt me because he considers any talk of his LTA shaming him and rubbing his nose in it.

He will not take one, he considers them pseudo-science, and I believe if anyone can game a poly it is him, so I haven't pushed for one.

he assured me all the details are gone and I'm not getting one beyond what the MOW gave me.

I am looking for reassurance and he can't/won't give it to me. I've actually asked for it when I'm feeling down and he said he's good for a hug, but he is not going to say things just to make me feel better, that feeling better is a choice I'm choosing not to make.

The truth is he has not put in any work beyond listening to a few podcasts the first year, and will not read, go to counseling or do any thing beyond assure me that he is done with infidelity.

Why I won't stop pushing for R on my terms? Maybe because I feel I deserve the effort from him.

You absolutely DO deserve the effort from him. But he will not (or cannot) give you any effort, and shows you that consistently and repeatedly. You aren't in R. You haven't even started R. And he has shown you pretty blatantly that he has zero interest in R if it doesn't stand for Rugsweep. I completely understand not wanting your marriage to end, but you deserve so much more than this continued disrespect on top of the gross disrespect of an LTA.

Sending hugs your way!

...when I'm feeling down and he said he's good for a hug, but he is not going to say things just to make me feel better, that feeling better is a choice I'm choosing not to make. He believes he is here now, choosing to be married and faithful and happy and I am the one holding us back. The truth is he has not put in any work beyond listening to a few podcasts the first year, and will not read, go to counseling or do any thing beyond assure me that he is done with infidelity. His words aren't comforting. The constant hugging and physical contact feels like love bombing a little, and I'm just looking for him to show me something I need to see, which is a commitment to change and complete honesty.

It sounds like semantics are the least of your problems. Honesty is the opening ante, and you're not getting it. What you're getting is a bunch of word salad and, astonishingly in the face of a nine year affair... bravado.

If it was me, he could take his lovebombing and stick it up his butt along with the divorce papers I'd have shoved up there far enough he'd be able to taste them by now. (Figuratively, people... I'm not an animal..lol) But seriously, I'd be angry, and he would NOT be welcome to hug or any other physical contact. This isn't remorse. Did you blow up MOW's world for her? Because if not, I'd start there. I would treat this guy to the ass-whooping of his life, and not lose a minute's sleep over it. I'd be raining hell on him. What colossal gall? The outrageous narcissism of declaring "I'm here now. What's the problem?". This is denial of the severity of his transgressions writ large.

I can't offer you any advice, because my eyes are bulging with the aneurysm this guy is giving me, but wow.. you're not wrong to be put off by his responses.

I'm sorry, but it really doesn't sound like he's remorseful enough to put the effort into giving you want you need. And I really don't believe that you should accept any less. I'm back here after 18 years because I'm tired of not knowing what was really going on in my life during my FWW's A. She stonewalled me on getting answers until I gave up. Later on she finally got it and may have been more open, but I had already swept it under the rug and didn't want to think about it any more. We made a happy marriage but not having those answers has always nagged at me. It impacted my life in ways that I never wanted to admit. I won't accept that any more. I deserve better.

You say that he's very analytical and engineer like. That makes me think that he remembers more than he admits. Speaking as someone like that, it suggests an organized mind. Yes, I often can't remember trivial, short term memory stuff. But all the important stuff is filed away in there and it's just a matter of finding the will to access it and a way to get to it. The way for me is finding a starting point that I remember and following it to its conclusion. Also, as an organized, analytic person, I would bet that he has more resources that can help him remember than he will admit: calendars, emails, bank records, phone records. It sounds like he's not trying very hard.

He has admitted after the fact that he says things intentionally to hurt me because he considers any talk of his LTA shaming him and rubbing his nose in it.

Here's the thing he has to learn to accept and live with: the things he did back then were shameful. He needs to recognize and own that. That's part of the benefit of answering these questions. But that's not the purpose of asking the question. The purpose of asking the question is so that you can understand who he was and what was happening in your life during that time so that you can start to reconstruct your reality and accept what happened. He doesn't have to wallow in that shame. He can accept it as the consequences of some horrible, selfish, hurtful choices and commit to never being someone who would make those choices again.

Many have asked why no poly for my peace of mind. He will not take one, he considers them pseudo-science, and I believe if anyone can game a poly it is him, so I haven't pushed for one.

As a BS with a similar mindset, I agree with this. I'm working with my FWW to reconstruct a timeline from 18 years ago. I believe I have discovered enough on my own to trip her up if she lies. But I would never risk blowing up my M based on the results of a test that isn't even admissible in court. Then add the difficulty of knowing whether you're getting an expert, some yahoo, or even just someone who hates WSs.

I have pushed for a timeline, but they went from 2009-2018 and he assured me all the details are gone and I'm not getting one beyond what the MOW gave me. I may not get over the timeline thing, because I have a lot of holes in the facts I've found and the stories I've been told. I also know it's past time wanting the whole story, the chapters I have are awful enough to know what I need to know. I'm more interested in what he was thinking or how he felt about us and her during those years, more than what they did or where they went.

Some of the details are gone just by nature, some because he wants them gone or it's convenient that they're gone, and because (hopefully) he hasn't fondly lingered on those memories over the years. But a lot of events are in there if he wants to find them.

Try this exercise for yourself. Think of an event of high excitement from that time and try to reconstruct it in as much detail as possible in your mind. That will give you an idea of what is possible. Some BSs expect way too much. Most WSs admit way too little.

Part of the problem is that these memories can be elusive when you look for them, but may pop up unexpectedly at any time. My objective is that once we work through the timeline and all my associated questions, that time period will be an open book from then on. If I have thoughts about the A I will share them. If my FWW recalls things that she left out, I will expect her to share them at the time or note them so she can share them at the appropriate time.

He has shown you that, for years, he is capable of betraying promises, deceit, and, thus, being unsafe for you.

You say:

he is incapable of typical self reflection, empathy and kindness

He says you are choosing not to be happy.

But he is choosing not to read and reflect. He is choosing not to want to engage in an IC process that would require him to look inward and reflect on FOO issues and on current patterns of thinking and actions.

He is choosing to not read heartfelt letters written by you that would make him face and possibly feel some empathy for you.

He is even choosing to shut down conversations about the A with hurtful comments or yelling/bullying.

So beyond assuring you with words that it's all good now and you should now trust him and be happy (because he says so), how is he a safe partner for you?

His willful avoidance of having to face your pain and own his part in it tell me that he is capable of potentially feeling empathy for you. He doesn't want to. If he wasn't feeling guilt/shame, he wouldn't be pushing back SO VERY HARD to avoid facing it. Even for people on the spectrum, actions of empathy can be learned. He is taking consistent actions to not show empathy for you.

If he won't even self-reflect, how has he changed and become safe?

Saying that he is doesn't make it so. You are feeling that.

My best wishes for your healing, dear lady. You deserve peace, security, and true happiness.

I am not qualified to diagnose him with anything. But if you're accurately relaying your experience I can observe that your H has narcissistic traits which may be an earmark of NPD. Maybe the two most noteworthy being a lack of empathy and entitlement.

If he faces that, you must accept that you can not reason with it. As a matter of fact, you showing emotion by burning the book feeds his condition.

You love him. You're devastated not just by his A, but just as much by his lack of empathy after DD which includes his apparent apathy towards personal and emotional growth. You are pouring from your almost-empty cup into his cup which looks in need. I understand how you feel, right?

Here's the problem and it's one that not just someone with NPD would have...all WS's have it until they don't; their cups are empty because there's a hole in the bottom that they are chosing to leave there.

What you describe looks like you giving from your own cup that desperately needs to be refilled NOW into a faulty cup. You can't afford to do this. He needs to fix the hole in him and until you stop pouring into his cup, he can't begin to work on it. Have you ever attempted to fix a wet surface that is supposed to be water tight? Until it's dry, the real repair can't begin.

Too, as you metaphorically pour into his flawed cup he sees how little you value what you give. He is showing you how you're wasting your effort and yet you continue to pour. No one simply gives away or wastes what is hard earned. Nothing worth attaining is easy to get. What message are you sending him?

Show him that he can either begin to repair the hole in his heart and mind or you'll remain disconnected from him emotionally. It's hard. I know from experience. But it gets easier over time and you'll begin to find more inner peace.

The individual circumstances make up a huge hole that he needs to fix.

WW here (really MH as my husband just admitted to his EA with my friend).

This stood out to me:

Why I won't stop pushing for R on my terms? Maybe because I feel I deserve the effort from him. Someone here told me over a year ago that I needed to get over this or get gone. Isn't there another option where he finally, eventually comes around to remorseful behavior? I'm giving him extra chances to find out because I want us to stay together. It's always a good reality check though, to ask myself what I'm doing here, and why.

The "option" I gave my husband was divorce papers written up (not served, drafted and ready to go) if he wouldn't get IC. He was angry and abusive (of course, as I had a PA with a COW). He wasn't admitting to his abuse and it was getting worse. He had a pattern of financial and emotional abuse throughout our marriage (he's an engineer type too) and despite my off and on IC and MANY pleas to get MC/marriage retreats/any kind of counseling, he refused. Refused to see his contribution to our unhappiness, refused to see beyond my post partum/obvious struggles with depression and anxiety and refused to take ownership of ANYTHING.

I realized (a year into IC), that regardless of me being the WS, I did not deserve to be abused, did not want a marriage where it was acceptable to my BH to abuse me, did not want to be with ANYBODY who refused to take responsibility for their own actions. I was finally learning to do so, to own my shit and I could no longer be married to someone who wasn't even interested in working on doing the same.

So, I made it clear: get in IC NOW or I will serve him with D papers.

He chose IC. And by the grace of God, we are in MC and he has been participating in IC for the past year. Improvements are being made, we have a ton of shit to work on and I am far from being done with my own work, but where there's progress, there's hope.

You're not making progress right now- he's not participating in healing your M. Right now, you can't have an M unless you are partners in rebuilding.

I can't guarantee an ultimatum with your WH will work. If you're serving D papers only to manipulate the situation in your own favor, it won't work out for you. Unless you ask yourself what you want out of a marriage and are ready to leave the one you have if it's not what you want, serving him with D papers will be a hollow and anxious gesture.

I knew in my core that when I drafted those papers that I would D my BH if he did not start IC and stop the abuse. Do you know that in your core? Do you believe for yourself that you deserve more? And if not, WHY?

Wishing you the best.

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful feedback and perspectives, the sympathy and the truth bombs. I would love to respond to each of you but I am am bit overwhelmed and already self conscious about how much I write and how much I reveal, so this is a catch all response to all your replies.

No real surprises in your responses, or nothing I haven't already realized at this point. I know I should have titled this post something else like When a little thing is really about a big thing, or How do you keep going when you are too stubborn to quit, or How to R with a non-compliant spouse, or How to compartmentalize like a champ or How to settle for less and like it... I realize I am in a spiral because he is not doing what I need and now that we are learning to yell at each other I feel less safe than I did when there was a secret sex buddy in the middle of our marriage. I want to clear the air with him, reach a bedrock of understanding and I keep trying knowing every time I do that it will likely end badly. I call our relationship problems and my attempts to work through them with him the brick wall I keep running into face first. I'm a bloodied mess and I just keep trying. This is who I am. I do not give up when I want something, and no obstacle has ever kept me from achieving a goal I set for myself, until now.

Everything shifts when you discover your life is a charade, that the story you wrote for yourself is false and tainted, and for me, it's equally hard to see myself change through this. I have learned I don't really know him, and based on how many things I have done out of character and how much I am changing, I don't really know myself anymore either. I am very off kilter. I want better for myself and for us, and I just haven't found a path to wanting better for just me. I may be one of those sad sacks who just loves more than the other person and I know that the one who loves the most has the most to lose or as I like to say, he who loves the least always wins, because they have all the relationship leverage. I am also the sad sack that has pair bonded for life and can't see a path for my life alone, at least not yet. I can still see that brick wall and I just keep running at it hoping for a breakthrough, thinking I can wish the repair work into existence. I think my H has been trying to tell me he has given all he is capable or willing to dealing with the past and will give whatever I need moving forward as long as it is about the future, ie let it go. I have never been a let it go person, but a tenacious problem solver and fixer as any good troubled middle child would be, and maybe that's why I'm still here venting, whining and making excuses for us both. I don't know. But I know that problems do not fix themselves, that issues have to be identified and corrective actions are required to prevent recurrence. He understands analytical problem solving at his core, and if we were troubleshooting a thing or a process and not human emotions, he would succeed every time. This time he is failing both himself and me.

He has admitted to being at his core a selfish person, but will not admit to NPD. He has no interest in psychology, self assessment, any of it. We took the enneagram personality test at work decades ago and his response was nope, just mark me down as the type who thinks these tests are stupid. That is one of the funny stories we tell, but also very telling. We took the Myers-Briggs during our MBA classes and he also declared that a waste of his time. Zero interest in how he works, or how others work or how to work better together. Not surprisingly, he is a successful self employed businessman and prior to that a very hard person to work for or with. I always did it best because I thought I knew how he worked and what made him tick, and I was able to see the positives in his negatives. That bubble is very burst now.

Sometimes I think I am stuck because I just can't believe this shit even happened, it is so outside the realm of what I though possible and what I thought he was capable of doing to me. Sometimes I think he is stuck because he can't deal with the initial premise that no one would ever know therefore no one was going to get hurt, and he can't handle the fallout my random discovery caused and I am a constant reminder of that. I think part of his hard heart toward his LT girlfriend is that she gave him the card that I found after he told her to stop giving him that crap, so it is her fault the sexy secret bubble burst and I think he harbors anger at her for that. And anger at me for finding it, and then tenaciously, but glacially, finding everything else over the next two excruciating years. Further anger at me for not accepting his minimizing deflections trying to save face and manipulate the outcome, but I have yet to detect anger at himself for all he has caused. For me, that self reflection is a keystone in the rebuilding of self, and partnership. That plus unbridled honesty and hard work. No one I know works harder at their job or hobbies than my WH and no one I know puts less effort into relationships than him. I was fine with that part of his personality because I trusted and felt completely safe with him, until I realized what he was capable of. He knows how to learn, he knows how to work hard, but only at things that make him feel better about himself. My pain and working through it make him feel worse about himself, and he can't let himself go there, so I remain further collateral damage. The real question is how much more can I take? What is my break point?

He has already offered to leave me if I can't be happy, and that freaked me out, that he would give up without a fight. He said he can't make me happy so if he is the cause of my unhappiness he will leave so I can be happy. Noble gesture or indication of his lack of attachment or will to try? I don't know and neither does he, he just knows all this is getting old and too much for him to handle. Based on my reaction to his offer to leave me, which was mostly shock and panic after being told he would never quit trying, I know I am not ready to quit, not yet. But the foundation is being laid down that road, isn't it? I talk to several LTA survivors here, and was heartbroken for one of them whose husband gave up on R because she could not stop talking about the A as part of her healing. He just left rather than do the work. Maybe the traits that let them betray and cheat and lie are the same ones that default to self preservation and running away when things get hard and require dealing with so much emotional baggage. I am always pulling for R if there is enough love on both sides to fight for. I am equally unsettled by the BS who reach the point of giving up and choosing the unknown rather than keep fighting a losing battle. I am the most freaked out by the BS in my situation who find themselves back on the JFO forum after years of trying. I don't want to be any of these stories, but I can't figure out how to write the ending I can live with.

"I didn't think anybody would be so hurt by all this." He can't say I didn't realize my affair would hurt you so deeply. I didn't know you cared so much about our marriage. I think the word choice is really the key indicator that he can't even talk about what he did in simple terms. In our few therapy sessions, before I knew the horrible truth, when asked why he was there, he answered that he was there to help me get over a problem or maybe he called it an incident we had in our marriage. I can still see the therapists eyes bulge, and I went off right away on that word choice - a problem? You had an affair, you need to call it what it is. I was reminded to not shut him down and let him speak, but I was shocked and outraged at the minimization of it all. Still am. The therapist and I talked months later when I found out the truth, in an IC, that my H has issues way beyond MC. His inability to take responsibility or even call his affair by name and his goal of fixing me and not himself were very concerning. He told me to remember that I have done nothing wrong, a great wrong has been done to me, and there are no right answers or paths moving forward, but to take care and time in choosing my path with a vision toward future happiness. I have his words stuck in my brain, you can always leave, just be sure it is the path you choose wisely, because you seem very invested in the life you have built together. He also told me our story made him fear for his own marriage, because of the amount of deception that lay beneath what looks on paper to be a perfect marriage.

So here I am, getting my therapy during a pandemic from a wonderful supportive group of people who have seen it all and lived to tell the tale, and even more surprising, show up here to offer help and support to the next batch of broken people. Thanks to you all for the time to read all this mess and the offers of support and the suggestions you have given me. I have told my WH that one of the saddest parts of our story for me is the kindness and support and checking in I get from a group of people who I have never met, when I wish I could get it from him.

If I can rugsweep, compartmentalize, harden my heart and change my nature I can move forward pretending to be the perfect happily married couple. If I force him to give me what I need, if he is even capable, he will resent me for it, and I already resent having to ask in the first place. What a hot mess. I'll keep you posted as things unfold. Thank you all again, truly.