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I am at a loss as to how some people are so certain that she was having an affair because she wanted sex/relationship, and completely dismiss the possibility that she really did want a sperm donor.

People make irrational decisions all the time. If there's an undiagnosed, untreated mental health issue, it is easily plausible that she really did just want a sperm donor. Money was tight, IVF is expensive, and lots of people don't want to adopt-- we haven't heard the OP say one way or the other about whether they had discussed that, or if he would have been open to it. Furthermore, by leading OP to believe he was the biological father, she increased the chances that he would bond with them and love them and stick around for them; maybe he would have loved them just as much if they came from IVF, but it's not at all unreasonable for her to worry that he might not.

I don't claim to know what the real story is, but I really think that people here are ignoring the possibility that this is one of those rare cases where it turns out not to be just garden variety infidelity. Those cases do happen, and anyone who's been on this site for more than a year can undoubtedly remember some of them. I don't think it's implausible that a woman with some mental health issues (not dramatic, minor and manageable mental health problems still make an impact), believing a doctor who said that it was almost impossible for them to conceive, decided to do something as stupid as getting pregnant by another man.

Again, I'm not tying to assign a likelihood to this being the case; I just think the multiple posts stating with great assurance that the pregnancies just happened as part of an affair, rather than being the reason for the affair, are going too far.

I'm also not at all sure what the correct course of action would be if it turns out she was telling the truth; the act of infidelity is usually not the thing that prevents reconciliation, it's all the lying that the WS did in order to conduct the affair that becomes the barrier that can't be overcome. In this case, she lied for a long time about something very important, so I don't know how likely it would be for OP to ever really trust her again-- and a marriage without trust isn't much of a marriage.

[This message edited by Sordid at 12:24 AM, Friday, February 11th]

I think I was trying to say something similar in my post.

What is KNOWN is bad enough. No need to go assume motives, multiple affairs, or what have you. Even if she is telling the truth - well holy shit how do you even begin to reconcile that? That's enough for one human to handle right now.

We do no favors to severely, newly traumatized people by adding logs to the flame. Logs we don't even know, could not possibly know, belong on this particular fire.

As a guy whose wife led me on for five years about the true story of her pregnancy, I can relate somewhat, though your story is so much worse than mine. Given the hiding of the reasons for the payback of the money, and the fact that she didn’t want the second child but got pregnant again to keep you in the dark about the first one, and given that you were absolutely clueless about any of this, it is clear that you know nothing about your wife at all.

So now you know that everything you thought about your marriage was a charade, and that your supposedly loving wife is a stone sociopath. BUT, she loves you! So that’s ok then!

Oh, and her mother was in on part of the deception. You must feel like your life was scripted by Stephen King and directed by Quentin Tarantino, based on a story by Rod Serling and aired on an episode of Breaking Bad.

I am so so sorry for you, especially that you are joined at the hip with her forever because of the boys.

The seeds of her future narrative is there for all to see. It really all comes down to it being your fault. Despite her claims of repentance, she will soon lawyer up and demand most of what you own in perpetuity since, ya know, why not? That’s what antisocial sociopaths do.

T/j. How do you know his wife is a sociopath? She loves her children. Sociopaths don’t love anyone. She says she loves her husband and until the DNA disaster he had no reason to believe she didn’t love him. Sociopaths are abusers, thieves, killers. So far none of this info says that.

I hope both of you get into therapy. You need real help in this.

One main thing you need help with is how and when to tell your boys. Please do not use the term "real" daddy because you are their real daddy. He is a sperm donor.

I am at a loss as to how some people are so certain that she was having an affair because she wanted sex/relationship, and completely dismiss the possibility that she really did want a sperm donor.

Sordid she already admitted to the A, "she fell for OM" way before she had child #1, she admitted to trying to start a relationship with OM a.k.a CHEATING. I know OP has a lot of his plate and is confused about many things, but as he himself points out by saying "let's call this full EA/PA Season 1", this is not one of them. Again let's get this out of the way, she cheated/tried to start a relationship with OM, she then continued to cheat for years.

"Our problems at home grew and he kept saying how I deserved better and I believed him and then you think you feel something for someone else and you and I started talking about separation and I fell, I tried to start a relationship. Then I realized it was wrong and things were not as they said it (??? Who said it? Who said what?) and any attempt of a relationship that could have existed ended and as two grown adults we remained as friends." (Some parts of this section are written in third person, clearly by someone not ready to "own it", someone who can’t reconcile her perceived values with her actions) (let’s call this full EA+PA Season 1)

[This message edited by Buster123 at 2:24 AM, Friday, February 11th]

Sociopaths are completely aware of and able to conform to the rules of society, but are indifferent to them, and are indifferent to consequences until they get caught. And if she ain’t an abuser of her husband, what is she? And her story about paying off the debts of someone else’s crime is extraordinarily hard to swallow.

She loves herself first. Everyone else comes in second. Nuff said.

I am at a loss as to how some people are so certain that she was having an affair because she wanted sex/relationship, and completely dismiss the possibility that she really did want a sperm donor.

It's called the "if quacks like a duck" rule. Every single thing about this is just a garden variety affair. By her own account it started before having children was even a consideration and for the same reasons that every other WS claims.

Since her account contains the same blame-shifting and minimizing that every WS does, it's safe to assume that it also includes the same kind of lies that they all tell. As he points out himself, there's really no reason not to believe that this may have just been a LTA that happened to include the time when they decided to have children.

As always, the motives are entirely selfish and about her, not heroic an self-sacrificing as she claims. It's not even out of the question that she much preferred to have children with the OM and might have deliberately avoided conceiving with her BS.

It's very likely that she was much more deeply involved and aware of the conflicts of interest and mismanagement that went on at work than she admits. Once again, instead of dealing honestly with a problem, she engaged in massive financial infidelity. She didn't do that because she was an innocent victim in all of this. She did it because she was trying to hide it.

ShouldHaveStayedAsleep, please be very wary of your WS. Right now she's overwhelmed with regret for being discovered, but she's nowhere close to true remorse and being ready to fully come clean. She has demonstrated a history of extreme measures to get what she wants. If she's concerned about the consequences this might bring, please consider whether she might just disappear with your children and make sure that can't happen.

[This message edited by Seeking2Forgive at 4:09 AM, Friday, February 11th]

So OP and WW were together tracking fertility and ovulation so that they could both have a baby, and when the time is right for child 1, on her account, she goes to AP secretly to plant the seed.

That’s pretty staggering in and of itself.

They were poor and IVF was expensive. Ok.

She does not seem to mention sperm donation, which isn’t expensive.

She must have thought AP would make a good sire, good genes, why gamble on a random.

She does not tell AP the sex was to get pregnant.

One time sex perhaps, who knows.

At that time she was friends, on her account, with this ‘married with kids’ AP, having fallen for him previously, and having tried to start a relationship, but having decided not to. But she did keep in touch with him a lot, and he was in touch with her a lot with all kinds of business ideas (some of which were borderline or fraudulent ones, we don’t know the extent of WW’s knowledge of that at the time).

The emails would be interesting, lot’s of ego massage.

WW’s subordinate kept trying to tell WW that AP was a two faced liar. She ignored that. Sounds like affair fog to me.

She knew AP was a terrible person by the time she decided to use him as a sperm donor again for the second child.

Both times she decided to get banged up by a man she was close enough to, for long enough, that it was no biggie to have impromptu unprotected sex with, even though he was married with kids.

She did that in preference to another trip with husband to the doctor and a bit of a wait. Probably without even calling her usual doctor to double check her fatalistic view about OP’s infertility was right. Then she did it again for child #2 years down the track. The worst decision of her life she says, twice.

And she did it because she loved OP so much that she was prepared to move heaven and earth to make him a father.

That assumes she is not minimizing, and she probably is, big-time.

Your kids are as precious as they ever were. It would be lovely if you could still love and support them. Your wife has no right to expect it, but it sounds like you will, and bless you. I hope I would do the same. I would be conflicted.

I would divorce in your situation, as you say you will. It’s your call of course, and once the smoke clears, you decide.

If you did think of R, you need to ‘follow the money’ first. I would make her scramble to recover and produce every email, phone log, bank transaction, disciplinary letter, and her medical file. I would also speak to at least her former subordinate (with her permission), and her Mum, to corroborate the facts, including the financial lies and scandal. It’s usual to say ‘contact OBS’. I would, but given she apparently knows or suspects, I would wait, put the history together, and speak with the attorney about it first.

[This message edited by straightup at 5:04 AM, Friday, February 11th]

They were poor and IVF was expensive. Ok.

And yet she was able to come up with the money to cover for her improprieties at work.

I'm not sure why anyone is giving any credence at all to this sperm donor story. She was in the A before that even came up.

Dear (((SHSA)))

As usual you write so well but have so much to unpack. Using seasons is a great way to break up the timeline.

Season 1

Back in early 2012, she took a managing position at this not that small organization.

you and me having problems at home, each day worse than the previous one (this aligns with the rough patch described in my last post)

So now you know why you were acting "off" and she is blameshifting and so are you. This OM was in the middle of your marriage as soon as she started the job. You were right in your feelings in 2012 and she was to blame. Then the "nice guy" OM helped her stop the affair (EA or PA?) and she did what she should have done from the beginning of the EA.

After a while, I decided to make an effort and work things between us. You asked me why did I suddenly change, why I decided to put extra effort between us

It looks like she wants to blameshift the start of her affairs on YOU. Do not accept this, do not take ANY blame for her bad decisions.

Season 2

Now with her integrity completely broken she finds a way to go further into her chouses.

boosting your ego and making you feel special always felt good

then you and I started having problems again

Of course you were having problems she was having an EA and again blames YOU.

And I knew that asshole has kids and wasn’t hard to convince, I was foolish and made impulsive decisions and never thought of the consequences. All I wanted was to be a mother and you to be a father.

She just can't get back her integrity and makes an even worse decision.

What if SHSA finds out what I did?

Yes, she knew someday you would find out she knew and made the decision again.

Season 3

She just can't find a way out, in too deep and doubles down. I have seen gamblers pack it in before this.

Season 4 I will add financial infidelity.

"it cost me a lot of money"

Why doesn't she get you involved? You are the expert and this? She takes family money to give to the OM, I am just spinning. She had to be going insane!

Now it looks like her mom knows everything and loans her money too!? She used YOUR money too.

Present Season

She says I can keep everything, I can keep the house, the cars, the savings, the investments, everything. She will sign anything I want, whenever I want, but please don’t kick the kids out of my heart.

This will sound harsh on SI but DO IT NOW. You are not leaving your children, get this signed now before someone gets in her ear, and she loses what little integrity she has gained. This whole situation could easily devolve to you losing. (Take it from me I know) Lost more amazing court cases with wife 1 that I thought should have been thrown out of court.

Future Season

This is yours to write. How do you want it to look?

Actually, I hope it includes R after D (did I just spin you again?) get moving on a favorable D that saves you and your children, maybe full primary custody with visitation for her? This should fix some of the citizenship issues. If you ever were forced out, you can take the children.

Sure not many will agree but yes you can R. You know you want your children. You know you want a good mom. You are further along than most with a true picture. You know you still love the nut case that did so many stupid things. Somehow, I am having a hard time picturing her as evil or as some have said a sociopath.

I will continue to pray like you asked in a previous post. May that wisdom of Soloman and God grace be with you.

May you heal soon.

Organic

PS. BTW I raised my WW daughter as mostly as a single dad then adopted her. This will be my standing achievement of my life. It was so much fun and love. Yes, teenage years are a challenge but still so much fun.

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 6:36 AM, Friday, February 11th]

Nope, nope, nope. You being sarcastic did not push or force your wife into a very long term relationship of physical and emotional infidelity, financial infidelity, possible criminal activity, betrayal of her children, her spouse, her family, herself and her employer. The mythology of the predatory AP who swooped in on the vulnerable WW who was upset because her husband was difficult or because her husband wanted a second child is offensive beyond belief. Please. I can’t believe the notion that infidelity—and infidelity on this scale to boot—is somehow caused by conflict in the marriage or a spouse being difficult is still floated here. And in this case, SHSA’s WW didn’t just have an affair. She deliberately got pregnant TWICE by this horrible predator, among other things.

My WH said I was "mean" because I didn’t wish him Merry Christmas on Christmas morning. This is the person who destroyed my past, present and future, destroyed my kids’ family, our 27 year marriage, and the life that we had planned together. The person who destroyed my trust and made me physically ill. But yeah, I’M the mean one. For the record, he doesn’t see himself as being mean or hateful for any of what he’s done. He’s very invested in seeing himself as a victim of everything. No, I didn’t make him cheat for almost 7 years. That’s all him.

Betrayed spouses tend to be fair people who own their own imperfections in the marriage and examine their behavior. Nothing that SHSA did or said caused or pushed his WW in this direction. Nothing. And certainly nothing that he did CAUSED his WH to do this.

SHSA, you’re doing really well in an awful situation. As others have pointed out and as I said in an earlier post, her story is full of self-justification, blameshifting, lies of omission and distortion, and self-pity. It says a lot about you that your head is still above water here. She sounds like a complete wayward in the way she has narrated everything. Just take a minute to ponder how completely distorted her thinking has to be to believe that you wanting a second child forced her to go back and have sex with someone she calls a horrible person until she got pregnant again and to then resent you and the baby she was carrying. And now, to throw that out in a blameshifty, "you got what you wanted." I’m guessing that what you wanted had nothing to do with your wife choosing to cheat again, get pregnant by someone you were completely unaware of again, give both of your children a story that would invariably harm them, the marriage, you, your family, and on and on and on. How comfortable are you with your WH deciding that THIS was what had to happen and what you wanted? Your agency on everything was stolen by someone with horrific judgement who made every major decision for you and your children without allowing any of you a voice.

Do her motives really matter when her judgement and behavior are so horrific and catastrophic for you and for her own children? Do they matter when she didn’t give you any choices and kept you completely in the dark for years? Do they matter when you all could have easily been involved in the shady financial mess that she bought her way out of?

At a certain point, you have to recognize that loving someone can’t make them safe or healthy for their family. Waywards are broken. They often break other people because of it. And some of them don’t have it in them or don’t really want to change. It’s too scary. How do you see your WW in this area? Is she owning her bad choices really, or is she trying to explain them? Is she still lying to herself?

You’re early on. Keep watching her behavior and keeping track of what she says about her actions. How does her story change with time? How do her explanations? And most of all, what is she doing to show that she is more than words? She has offered to give you everything. That is a cheap promise unless she has offered to contact an attorney and get the paperwork done or better yet, unless she has already contacted one. You may not even want this, but that’s not the point—the point is whether or not she is making empty promises to elicit pity or control you rather than taking real steps to change.

You are not even beginning this journey yet. The journey through and out of betrayal is a very, very long one. You’re doing well, but there is a lot of pain still ahead as I’m sure you know. But none of us could have really imagined how long and difficult it is when we were this early on. It will take you places you never could have imagined in your wildest and worst dreams. Please protect yourself and your boys.

[This message edited by NowWhat106 at 8:09 AM, Friday, February 11th]

I don’t have advice. I don’t have anything to say other than my two posts were overly optimistic. I thought the DNA tests were wrong. I was optimistic.

My heartfelt sympathies goes to you and your situation.

I hope you find a good counselor who can support you through this.

One day you will emerge from this nightmare. We all do. Just know that you will survive this.

I still don’t get it why she was so nonchalant about the original suggestion to have a DNA test, knowing it would expose the truth.

OP: I read your final post.

She was wrapped up with office romance / sex culture at work.
I don't know how or why that is, but that was her, and she was all in. Maybe indirectly in competition.
Just drop her flowery language and romeo and juliet stuff of roses, unicorns and gold petals from heaven.

Yes, the kids do and should meant a lot, lot. They're kids.
Sorry I don't like her. She is a weak easily led astray person.
You're a good person. Try to step away and think what the future is that you want and what it looks like.

I still don’t get it why she was so nonchalant about the original suggestion to have a DNA test, knowing it would expose the truth.

Anything other than this would have raised a red flag. It’s possible She was hoping he’d forget about the tests.

Or she’s just a cold calculating person who does not care. Either way - if he finds out it doesn’t matter to her.

It’s like finding out you’ve been married to a serial killer - you are unsuspecting and see no signs of that type of evil.

This one just breaks my heart.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:52 PM, Friday, February 11th]

I’m a little perplexed as to why she was 100% sure the first child was AP’s. She was, because she says she went back to him to conceive child #2. Was it just that the first child resembled AP in some way, or has she already done her own DNA test.

Earlier in this thread I had assumed she had persuaded herself that the children may be OP’s, because she was sleeping with two men, even if the low fertility made it unlikely. Further info from OP after confronting his WW suggests to me she has done tests post birth.

[This message edited by straightup at 1:16 PM, Friday, February 11th]

She wanted to have sex with AP and she did. She did not want to use protection so she did not. She wanted to keep the kid so she did. She did not want you to know so you did not. That is literally it. 6 A4 pages of trying to make her look better. Pouring gold dust on a dunghill.

At this point, you already know what you should do. Any more then it is just trying to convince us to agree with you. You said you has a strong psyche, I don't know about that.

Somehow this always happens. This has gone off into the weeds. I’m so sorry.

I would like to get back to what you are facing. I came across as a little harsh in one of these posts I made. My experience has been that in a relationship two people contribute to it and two people take away from it. In this case what little bit you have let us know makes it sound like perhaps you had a little bit of a sarcastic manner when you got angry. I am married to a man who is and I’ve had to just tell him to shut the F up because I’m not going to put up with it. I don’t know if your wife did not have enough grit to be able to tell you that but you have to look at what you contributed to your relationship. Somehow this man was giving her what she was not getting from you. People who do not have a strong sense of self-worth will fall for that if the person they love will not provide it. This is all in your somewhat vague description of y’all’s relationship.
I’ve never approved of cheating. That’s got to be said. One thing you can ask her is how does she feel when you talk to her. Someone who is being talked down to even in an oblique way is still going to feel it. If she felt she had to constantly defend herself against things you said to her then she was wide open for another man to step in, especially a con artist like he sounds.
Imagine her anguish when she found out that was a possibility the two of you could not have children. She was in the middle of what was probably an ongoing EA, possible PA, and that got thrown into the mix. At that point it sounds like she did a nose dive into hell. There he was fertile because she knew he had children and it made sense to her at the time. For those of us reading what you have written it does not make sense but we were not her and we were not there. I’m not excusing this please understand that. You’ve been cheated on and robbed two times and more. What you have to do is decide if you can do enough to keep the marriage going without brow beating her about it every day. if you divorce the two of you have to maintain a cordial relationship for the benefit of those two boys.

You ask for thoughts about the letter, I think.

It looks like it could be an accurate reflection of her thinking now about her thinking and actions then, IMO. What really counts, though, is what you think about it. So what do you think about it?

Motivation is one thing. It's pretty much entirely separate from the effects on you.

Gently, I read a lot of projection in this thread. You have to live with the knowledge that you have been betrayed in this way. How does knowing the way I or anyone else would decide to live with this type of knowledge help? (I'm not saying it will or won't help. I'm asking you to think about how it helps you.)

*****

I'm a lot more concerned about your kids. I say 'your kids' because raising a kid is different from being a biological father.

They are victims here as much as you are. You've bonded with each other. How are you going to solve that problem?

*****

I read a lot of horror about the the fact that SHSA's WS got pregnant by om.

Let's not forget that the A itself is enough for D, even if the SHSA were the boys' bio father, even without an STI, even without a double betrayal, even without any other 2nd factor.

Certainly a 2nd factor could be the difference between wanting R and wanting D, but the A in itself is devastating beyond description.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:26 PM, Friday, February 11th]

I have to say I disagree with one aspect of a recent post.

The wife is upset that she may not be able to have children without assistance - in vitro or Sperm donor etc.

That is not an excuse to cheat. That is not a justification to cheat. I call foul on that line of thinking.

Many people face infertility — some never have children. Sadly it happens but it’s NEVER a reason to cheat.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:53 PM, Friday, February 11th]