SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My wife has been a classic case of deny, deny, lie until confronted, and then give only the bare minimum. She openly admits that she's lied when she felt it was the best strategy, afraid that I'd leave her if I knew the next kernel of truth.

But now we're to a point where she's essentially saying, "Yes, I've always said there was nothing more to the story, and it has always until now been a lie because it was my strategy to lie if I thought the truth is too much, but now it's not a lie. Trust me."

I don't believe her, but I have to give her a chance to back it up, so I'm thinking of just telling her that when she's ready, when she's truly to that point, now or whenever, then she can take a lie detector test, but until she asks for that, then I'm not going to believe there's nothing more.

If it were me, I wouldn't give her the option of deciding when she wanted to take it. I would simply say "In order for me to believe that you are finally telling me the truth, I have scheduled a lie detector test for X date and time. This is not a negotiation. If you refuse to take the test or fail, I am done with this marriage".

Quick and to the point. I mean, if she's told you everything then she shouldn't have an issue with it.

Poly's are not perfect. How useful they are a function of the person taking the test and the lies you are trying to detect. A Pyscho/Socio path wouldn't feel much anxiety over lying. When they work it is only if the subject believes the lie is a falsehood. Some extremely anxious people may throw false positives. They work best for concrete questions. Something that happened or not. Objective questions like what someone felt or was thinking do not make good questions. You're a dozen years down the road so some memory haziness may play a role here also. Some major reframing done by her.

How much tolerance for more do you have? I ask because it seems unlikely from your story that she has yet to come fully clean to this day. There's likely more to what went on at the company meeting. If she spent the night there will have been sober morning sex.Even the best wayward omits things and she wasn't the best. That she walked away with just a kiss on the last meeting. The most likely answer is that something else happened on his boat. Or at least that was the plan when she agreed. Who knows maybe he was the one with cold feet after her pursuit after returning home.

This has been your fear correct? That is what you have to know? What would be your reaction if you have your fears verified but since dday she has been faithful besides the continuing to lie? What does your path look like if that is the case. What does your wife believe your reaction will be? I assume the kiss revelation went badly for her. Will you believe it if she passes? Those are questions I'd consider before seeking a poly because those answers may be enough for you to guide the conversation even without a polygraph.

[This message edited by grubs at 7:43 PM, Friday, October 28th]

What would be your reaction if you have your fears verified but since dday she has been faithful besides the continuing to lie?

I think this is entirely irrelevant. It isn't just about being "faithful". It's about being with someone who is safe partner. So what if she hasn't screwed anyone since dday? She's still been LYING to you for YEARS and that isn't something small to overlook. Do you want to be in a marriage where you say "She may be lying to me everyday, but at least she isn't having sex with anyone else"?

I believe the only way to move forward in a healthy manner is for you to be able to trust your WW. Right now, you can't. While I know lie detector tests can have false readings, what you'd be asking is pretty straightforward. It isn't based on feelings or thoughts.

[This message edited by BeingNaive at 8:50 PM, Friday, October 28th]

According to the American Polygraph Association, the accuracy rate is 87%, so no they're not infallible, but I will take 87% accuracy over a proven cheater and liar every single time. The threat of a polygraph often prompts the cheater to reveal more info (TT) or some version of the infamous "parking lot confession" just before, during and even after the test. Make sure you get someone with experience in your area.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 9:05 PM, Friday, October 28th]

I'm familiar with polygraphs, generally the threat of a polygraph is more beneficial then the actual results. There's a reason why the Supreme Court in the US doesn't allow it and leaves the decision up to local jurisdictions to allow them and those who do only allow under really strict rules. Results are way too subjective.

In your case the best option would be to say "I've scheduled a poly for xx date (not too far in advance). I need you to write down the answers to the following questions (put all the questions you want answers to). The polygrapher will utilize these questions and answers to come up with his set of questions to ask you. "

[This message edited by BHwhocarestoomuch at 10:27 PM, Friday, October 28th]

Polygraphy (although quite profitable) is based on pseudoscience. Evidence of unique physiological responses to lying is very weak. However there is a large (and growing) scientific literature on other methods of detecting deception. See for example Detecting Deception: Current Challenges and Cognitive Approaches (Wiley Series in Psychology of Crime, Policing and Law) by Aldert Vrij, Pär Anders Granhag et al. One important result of this research is that most of us routinely overestimate our ability to detect deception.

WC,

Given the number of years this feeling you have is not going away, so what is the harm if it produces the truth.

As others have said the threat is often enough.

You can also claim the OM confessed the truth.

My W collapsed when I told her I was going to speak with OM1, she didn't proclaim his innocence when I told her I was going to put him away, also a curious fact.

Honestly this is not a marriage I could live with. If the person you are married to has such disrespect for you that lying is something that is pervasive, I would seek a D.

So sorry for you. I would skip the polygraph altogether. I doubt it will solve anything.

If she’s that good of a liar she could beat the polygraph test. And that would leave you still wondering what really is the truth.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 1:32 PM, Saturday, October 29th]

WH takes polygraphs for his clearance, passes them fine

He says I cause him too much stress, that he’d fail one about infidelity

Let's just think of what 87% represents... Say someone wanted you to buy a lottery ticket for a brand new car, and there was an 87% you would win, would you buy it? If there was an 87% chance there was dog shit in your taco, would you eat it? If your particular form of cancer responded positively to treatment 87% of the time, would you risk it? Yeah 87% looks pretty good from here. Hell 60% looks good..

My thought on them was if I needed to use a lie detector test on my WH then the marriage was long over. I think it’s an indication of something that can’t be fixed.

For the record, I've been the subject of a number of polys, but I have never studied them.

As Bigger says, don't do it unless you're going to believe the results.

Can years of lying be wiped out by one questionable test that consists of 3-6 questions? If lying is her MO, will you not fear that she'll go back to lying after the poly?

Questions I think you need to answer for yourself:

What's keeping you in your M, given her admitted history of lying?

What will be different of she passes?

What will be different of she fails?

What do you need to do/have/change for you to trust your own ability to determine truth from fiction?

Are you depending on a machine operated by a person who doesn't know you to make decisions for you?

A poly is a good tool when a big decision depends on the answer(s) to 1 or 2 yes/no questions. Otherwise, not very useful at all, IMO.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:29 PM, Saturday, October 29th]

I don't believe her, but I have to give her a chance to back it up, so I'm thinking of just telling her that when she's ready, when she's truly to that point, now or whenever, then she can take a lie detector test, but until she asks for that, then I'm not going to believe there's nothing more.

By this statement you're implying that you will believe her if she passes the test, therefore I think it's important for you that she takes a polygraph test, but not "when she's ready or whenever", by saying that you don't sound serious enough, DEMAND she schedules it TODAY right in front of you, have her pay it in advance if possible, otherwise if you don't, she may simply drag her feet for years, kicking the can down the road hoping you'll just forget about it.

A poly is a must do in my opinion. She does not deserve the option whether or not to take one. Schedule it yourself and tell her when it is. If she refuses, you have your answer:

1. She is still lying

2. She isn’t truly remorseful because given the choice between taking the poly snd divorce, or at a minimum an unhappy relationship, and keeping you in a state of pain, she opts for the latter.

Polygraphs are really about getting a confession to more information "the parking lot confession". I did not go the poly route, I went the police type interrogation route.

I’ve known my W over 30 years, once I believed she was a liar, I could spot it. I was headed for D and she asked for another chance. I questioned her eye to eye for hours, and any lie meant filing D. When she finally wrote the timeline and I questioned it forward and backwards, her eyes came back. I’ve known those eyes and they told me when I had the truth. Not saying that works for everyone, but my W is a terrible liar and I know what it looks like.

How do you all feel about Lie Detector tests?

How do YOU feel about lie detector tests? Because in the end, that is really what matters.

Confidence in the science around it---Confidence in the results.
Lack of confidence in the science around it---Lack of confidence in the results.

Do you have a firm opinion on either stance?

I think they can definitely be a good tool to help deciding if reconciliation is possible or not.
If you are already determined to divorce, or state that you will divorce because it reveals a major fact I wouldn’t bother. I would just file already.

What a polygraph does is give a very strong indication on if the spouse is honest or not.
Not the truth per se – but rather if your WS is being truthful as they see the truth.
If your WS really thinks 2+2=5, then they would pass with a "no" if asked "is 2+2=4". We know the true answer is four, but the HONEST answer from the mathematically challenged WS is "true"/honest.

This is why ideally an operator wants a question they know the answer to, without the WS knowing they do. It gives a very clear baseline.

A base for any shot at reconciliation is that the BS knows what they are reconciling from. The WS needs to fully understand this. Learning about a kiss in the past a year from now can do more damage than learning about sex now. At some point the BS commits to reconciliation in the belief that everything is on the table, and that the "problem" has been quantified and defined, only to have something added at a later date. It’s trickle-truth that tends to do more damage than honest-truth.

The first thing out the window at d-day is trust. For the next months or even years the WS needs to contribute the trust needed for the relationship. We – the BS – need to realize that a relationship without trust isn’t sustainable, so part of our recovery is the recreation of trust (trust but verify). At some point down the road, we need to feel safe.
When we tell the WS that we are open to reconcile but we need the absolute truth we also need to get the message across that this isn’t negotiable, and that telling us the truth indicates they trust us with the process. At the same time – lying indicates they don’t trust us and with two partners with limited-to-none trust reconciliation simply isn’t possible.
Therefore – the purpose of a poly should be clear to both – it’s the point where the WS can confirm they have been HONEST in their truth. That they are candidates for reconciliation. It should also give US the BS a baseline to move on from. We need to accept the result and act accordingly.
Like if a WS story consistently says there were 2 affairs, and the poly confirms that then we don’t sink into the pit of searching for the third. We move on with the knowledge that there were two, and that’s bad enough already.

The biggest issue I have with polys is when they are used too early and/or the BS hasn’t decided what the results will lead to.
Right now, we have a thread on this forum where a BS used a poly to confirm the extent of the WS affair (kissing as WS claimed or sex). The WS has stuck to the story and passed a poly on that issue. Yet the BS still agonizes about if it was a kiss or full sex. IMHO this poly was a waste of time.

I also remember a poster whose wife spent a lot of time with her boss, including afternoons and evenings in his hotel-room (to get peace from the busy office up the road…), beauty treatments before these "work-sessions", dressing up for dinner at these sessions, hiding the phone, hiding lingerie, close contact with boss in public, suggestive texts… Basically everything except a visual of them together in bed. His wife refused everything and failed TWO polygraphs on the questions based on having a sexual relationship with boss. Yet the poster had enough doubts about the polys and his evidence that he remained in the marriage, only to fade away from this site when he realized the misery we forecast was becoming his reality.

To conclude: A poly is IMHO a very useful tool if you want a shot at reconciling. What it does is tell you if your spouse is a candidate or not. The message has to be gotten across that you need the absolute truth, and a poly is a great way for the WS to indicate you have it. That they trust you, that they have been honest in their truth and that they want to move forwards with you.
What it does for us however – to be useful for the marriage – is draw a line under our doubts. Of course, we are allowed (and should have) doubts, but like the guy above who has no evidence other than his doubts about the kiss or sex, the doubts need to be logical rather than purely emotional.

--
Finally – about polys.
They are admissible in court in some states and countries but under such conditions that both the prosecution and the defense can refuse them. Nobody can be forced into a poly.
If I was a prosecutor and had enough evidence to go to court, I wouldn’t want to risk my DNA-samples, timelines, fingerprints, witnesses… by allowing the accused to pass a poly, therefore refusing its usage. At the same time if I was the defending attorney and the prosecution asked for a poly (one I can emphasize the unreliability of) I would be thinking the prosecution is desperate.

Falsifying results? Have heard all these stories about having a tic in your shoe, using sedatives or controlling your breathing. Probably all work, once you have tried them several times with an operator where you train to pass a poly. If your WS has the sense, time and resources to go find a polygraph operator willing to coach them into passing a test… the infidelity isn’t your biggest problem!
The above defender? If the prosecution requested a poly, I would consider training my client to pass.
And yes – the operators know all the tricks and monitor for them.

Reliability? I honestly don’t know of a big enough test to answer that.
Imagine a university doing a test on polys. The advertise for 1000 people to test. What life-altering question can they ask? "Is this apple blue?" answered with a "yes" is just funny, lying that the red apple is blue won’t change your life. Now replace the apple with a nervous spouse that knows the future of their marriage is based on the next 20 minutes…

Plus, it measures honesty rather than lies. Of course, infidelity isn’t honest, but people that are generally honest can do dishonest things. But we also have people that don’t really discern between honest and dishonest. People that can lie just because that’s what they do. We have enough narcissists and psychotics that can pass any test that measures honesty simply because they don’t have it.

Some random thoughts…

The one 100% way to detect lying is to ask a question you know the answer to.

Another way to detect lying (but not the truth) is to repeatedly ask the same question and see if there is a difference in answers. While the answers may both be lies, they can’t both be the truth. It is hard living an inner and an outer life. Hard to keep the lies straight.

Nothing says you have trust issues like asking someone to take a poly. I’ve had them, they are very intrusive and creepy. It makes your lack of trust real and visceral.

Who on this planet doesn’t have secret thoughts (at least) and actions that they plan to take to the grave?

A polygraph can actually be a gift to the WS. It offers them a chance to be set free of their lies. It is a confessional. A moment of reset.

Cheers!

Hi OP. I asked my wife to take a lie dectector test to try to verify her claims she didn`t cheat on me.

There are many sides to the argument about their accuracy, and, I won`t argue with mommabear1010`s feeling her marriage would be over if a polygraph was hauled into it. She`s not alone in believing that, other posters have said the same over the years.

I also agree to a degree with what Bigger said it you`re not going to believe the results, it can be a waste of time. It was bit more complicated than that in my case. My trust in my wife was severely shaken at the time of the polygraph. She was shady, a binge drinker, a drunken embarrassing flirt, and could be very disrespectul to me. She was also blonde-haired, blue eyed, and pretty, and I was dumb. I was hesitant to break up with a pretty GF, later wife. Could have used advice from SI members.

So lack of trust... lack of it really messes with your mind. When the test was administered I was not allowed to be present. My wife passed the test. I was elated, rightly so I think, well done wife. But then, I started having thoughts like "I wonder what went on in that room during the test? Did she bribe him in some way?" Kind of pathetic on my part I suppose, but there it was. Note - the administrator was a retired RCMP officer who had delivered tests for many years on the job. He seemed knowledgeable and credible, he walked me thru what the process would be, I crafted the 3 questions with him, I paid for the test... I had as much control over the process as possible, but STILL had that niggly worry, I wonder if my wife was up to something? Lack of trust is a son of a bitch.

And then as time passed you read strong opinions on forums like SI that polygraphs are unreliable, that undermines your confidence a little bit, too (I knew that when I scheduled it).

Now having said that, after the test was administered our marriage improved. I think part of it was some trust was rebuilt because my wife immediately agreed to take the test when I asked. There was not a parking lot confession from my wife of her cheating. Part of it was I had some belief in the results, and furthermore she passed with 'flying colours). And then lots of hard work reconciling our marriage. She had, I'll crudely say, an attitude adjustment at about the time of the test - much more loving to me, no more drinking, active and interested in reconciling things. But I think the test helped to make things 'real' to her, our marriage was in trouble.

We don't talk about the test, ever, haven't told family or friends either. And for some time when polygraphs were mentioned on a TV show it was a bit awkward between us. As mommabear1010 alluded to, it makes me sad that a fucking polygraph was a part of our marriage.

One last thing, today am I 100% sure my wife didn't cheat on me? Nope. As I grow older I just shake my head at some of shit she pulled and now think it's 50/50 she cheated to some degree. But when I look back the test helped break the logjam of lack of trust from me so I/we could work on reconciling our marriage. We've had some bumps along the way, but I'm glad we stayed together.

[This message edited by SnowToArmPits at 3:14 AM, Monday, October 31st]