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Betrayed Womenz Thread

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Chaos posted 9/25/2019 06:25 AM

FUCK Wednesdays!

Hugs BBE. Fuck narcissists too.

DaisyAnne posted 9/25/2019 08:24 AM

This is the longest week ever! But he will be home tomorrow!

We have FaceTimed more the last few days than we have in years. We even FaceTimed as we watched our favorite guilty pleasure together, 90 Day Fiance.


Happy Wednesday ladies!

TX1995 posted 9/25/2019 11:06 AM

DaisyAnne - That is great that you guys are finding more connection. I really enjoyed that part of the aftermath of DDay 1. It's a nice little reward for putting up with feeling crappy so much of the time. :) Hope the next day goes by quickly!

((BBE))

I've been incommunicado with WH for about 40 hours now since it's day 3 of his intensive. I'm actually keeping myself so busy that I'm not getting very emotional. He did leave a letter in the mailbox for me. He's afraid I will not miss him and feel more peaceful that he is gone. I'm not really sure what I think TBH. I miss talking to him because we normally text all day long and then spend most of our evenings together. But kinda just missing that friendship as opposed to feeling a longing for my husband, you know? I do feel less anxiety now. I spent the first day in my rabbit hole of the cOWhore, but yesterday and today I'm not doing that. I am also feeling less of a desire to have my nightly cocktail. Of course that could be linked to the fact that I'm solely responsible for my kids and can't be drinking and driving them anywhere in case of emergency. I posted in General about wondering if this is in fact a dealbreaker and I'm just not willing to face it. I will daydream about a future with my WH. Even down to wanting to renew our vows for our 20th in 2 years. But then I can't look at him. I'll listen to a podcast and think YES, I want to be married to him, we can do this! and then 10 minutes later think NOPE, never want to touch his penis again. I'm going insane. You know, I realized that I have NEVER had this much trouble with a decision IN MY LIFE! I am usually pretty decisive and don't take much time to think through things. WH is the logical list maker in our family (ha ha the one who fucked his cOWhore, I know ironic!). Me, I usually say what I want and then follow through. But this one is a puzzler....I feel very out of control. But I suppose that's what I am. Out of control.

I skipped bible study this morning because we are doing a study that is all about disappointment in life and I started crying twice last week during our discussions. Just can't deal with that today. So instead I will be working on some schoolwork and ignoring my thoughts (again).

I hope you all have a wonderful FUCKING Wednesday!

HeHadADoubleLife posted 9/25/2019 11:11 AM

Happy (belated) Birthday Chaos!!!!! I hope it was full of glitter and awesome underwear!

BBE, fuck narcissists also! Stay vigilant and safe!

Sorry about the breakup, Hawke, but it sounds like you're taking it in stride! And good on him for recognizing that his daughter needs him more right now. On a side note, what the hell are raspberry salted caramels and where do I get some?? Those sound delicious! I'm obsessed with the dark chocolate raspberry cremes from See's Candies.

DaisyAnne, I know this has been a tough week for you, but it sounds like your H is taking all the right steps... FaceTiming you so you can watch your show together is really sweet!

Heartbroken, I am so sorry you have back pain that is bad enough for you to be taking narcotics regularly. My dad injured his back right before DDay, a similar injury, a herniated disc between L4 and L5 that actually caused him to have a drop leg, so they rushed him in for surgery to prevent any permanent damage. Be so, so gentle with yourself, you don't want to aggravate it and have complications! He has spent the past year on an intense regimen of drugs, along with several surgeries, and he is still in gnarly pain. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, even my X! Agreed that chiros can be great, or terrible depending on who you get.

I tweaked my back years ago and it still flares up from time to time, but that's muscle pain, not in the vertebrae. I too have heard that yoga would be really good for it, but I also never do it. The biggest hurdle I have to overcome is what my IC calls my "intolerance for frustration." I have been known to excuse myself and cry when I tip over trying to keep my balance It doesn't help that I'm knock-knee'd and therefore doing any of the positions the "right" way is incredibly painful. Also, I live in LA, so even the "beginners" classes are full of people who somehow just easily throw themselves into Scorpion pose... I swear, sometimes the advanced yogis go to these beginners classes just to mock the rest of us haha. We're all in corpse pose and they're over there in Visvamitrasana. I know, I know, comparison is the thief of joy and all that.

Ellie, such good news about Stig! Also, the visual of you distributing kicks in the dick is so satisfying, and hilarious! I know you've earned the Perel award for that, but should we also hand out the Kick in the Dick award whenever our WHs/XHs/BFs/any other douchey males do stupid shit? I mean it's better then actually kicking them in the dick, right? Any nominations this week? Heartbroken, I would say your H telling you to work out your emotions with Jesus is a pretty strong contender in my book.

Wouldn't it be cool to have a partner who didn't make you cry? If I ever get back into dating, that's what I want. Furthermore, I insist on a partner who, if he sees me crying, is overcome with empathy and concern as I would be for him.
I have this sneaking suspicion that this is actually how it's supposed to work.
That would be nice wouldn't it? I have a view that's a mix of Coco and Dee here. I won't disagree that there are some biological factors at play, as there is obviously a difference in how our hormones and genetics operate. I mean, there's a reason why most serial killers are men - with prevalence rates like that, we would be stupid to dismiss that there isn't some correlation. But nurture certainly plays a part, as most of these men also have insanely traumatic childhoods as well.

I do think it is something that is beaten out of them so to speak, the whole "real men don't cry" type of bullshit that is taught from a young age. I believe that empathy was quite literally beaten out of my XH - he received semi regular beatings by his Dad as "discipline." He would talk often about how his youngest brother would cry to avoid the beating, and how he saw that as weak. In our 7 years together I only saw him cry 3 times. I know he possesses incredibly deep feelings, when I got him to open up that was apparent, and it's one of the reasons I fell in love with him, but he had an incredibly difficult time expressing it.

All three of my brothers are incredibly empathetic, so I know it's not something that men are not capable of, it just isn't ingrained in most of them in the same way it is for women. Unfortunately lack of empathy is a detriment to relationships, but a benefit in pretty much every way that we can quantifiably measure "success" - like in career achievements, money earned, homes, cars, etc. all of which are things that many men are taught are more important than anything else. After all nobody makes the Forbes list by being a good listener, or a great shoulder to cry on.

Not that crying is the only indicator of empathy, obviously that's not the case. To each his own, I can understand why people wall themselves off and cannot cry, although I did wish that he felt comfortable enough with me to open up more in that way. But it's much different when being that closed off causes you to be disconnected from others, to lack empathy. For example, even if you don't cry, when you see someone who is crying, can you empathize with them and comfort them? Like how you mentioned comforting your son who was sick this past weekend, Coco. I still distinctly remember having a complete breakdown when my grandfather passed away, and while I could barely string a sentence together between sobs and was basically a pile of snot, XH came up, gave me a side hug, then said "I'm gonna go to the beach with the girls, k?" and just left me there. I asked him to stay with me, and he was just like nah, we're good, and didn't come back until late afternoon. Ummmm, what???

And Coco, I know this was a few pages back, but I totally understand why the lying upsets you so much. I would catch XH in the dumbest lies, and he would deny, deny, deny until I finally said fuck off, just admit it, and he would have a smirk on his face like whoops, sorry you caught me mom! I would ask him all of the time, if you can lie about this, what else are you lying about? If you lie about something that is demonstrable, like whether or not you took money out of the joint account, when I can clearly see in our transaction history that you did, how the fuck do you expect me to believe you when there are things I can't verify? The only lies that are acceptable are ones that are told when you're planning a surprise party, or hiding a birthday gift. It would bug me even more that he had basically told your son that it wasn't that big of a deal, because it's just perpetuating that cycle. We're supposed to be teaching our kids right from wrong, and watching your husband model bad behavior has to be so incredibly frustrating!

Even when taught about family life, it seems men are more often taught to take on the provider role where it's still all about things and making enough money to pay for all of that stuff. Much less about the actual emotional IQ it takes to be a good father and husband. Though when I see the way some of the BHs here talk about their children and all of the steps they take to be there for them during all of this trauma, my hopes are high that this isn't always the case, it's more about the perpetuation of cycles. We've seen it time and time again, trauma begets trauma, liars beget liars, those who are abused often become abusers, hurt people hurt people. Not always, but it's tough to break the cycles.

I know there is a lot of talk about how we need to raise our daughters differently, to tell them it's ok for them to want success, to be career driven etc. and I agree, it needs to be part of the discussion when raising a child of any gender, but it's all about balance. I have to say, I think we're better off as a society going in the opposite direction - IMO we'd all be happier if we taught men to care less about that, rather than teach women to care about it more. I'm sure the answer actually lies somewhere in the middle, but if I had to pick one direction to focus on, it would be teaching men to have more empathy, not teaching women to have less.

Whether I'll ever have another relationship again is still in question. I literally feel terror when I think of it. I could have sex again, absolutely, but I think I'm now the one who's intimacy-challenged, lol. It would be like "thanks, man. NO!!! OMG DON'T CALL ME!! Why do you need to know my last name?!?" Ha ha
I completely relate to this, and I do fantasize about having NSA sex just so I don't have to deal with the emotional aspect of it. I actually used to very much have that attitude when "dating" before I met my XH. I mostly stuck to FWBs, guys from the periphery of my friend group so that I knew them well enough to know they weren't psychos, but I also didn't have to "get to know them" in the same way you do when dating. I didn't have to give a fuck about them, and I found that freeing. And I don't mean not giving a fuck in the same way our WSs did, where they don't care who they hurt. But in the, I know some generic facts about you, and I care enough to hope that you're happy, but I'm not gonna call and ask how your day was kind of way where I could just see them when we were all hanging out, we both knew we were going home together at the end of the night, then I could have sex with them and leave so I could go to sleep in my own bed.

I thought I was protecting myself, but with therapy I quickly figured out I was really setting myself up for failure. Because by being as closed off as I was, the ONLY kind of person who was going to be able to penetrate that wall was the love-bombing personality disordered kind. Enter Meth-head McSexAddict, my lovely XH. When I look back at it now I think, of course the girl who was only looking for a fuck buddy was going to attract a sex addict, duh! So we've really got to be careful ladies, let's not become emotionally stunted, or else we'll just attract that into our lives!

In the current dating market, I just don't know if most men have that empathy in them, or at least many men my age and older (early 30s). I'm even skeptical of what appears to be empathy in men now, because it can often feel like something they learned to mimic just as a means to an end - to get laid, or to get you to pay for stuff, or to get their wife to do something for them etc. Think about this whole incel movement - how they think they're nice guys, and that being nice entitles them to sex, so women denying them that makes them involuntarily celibate. Nice isn't nice when there's an ulterior motive behind it. It's fucking nuts.

I'm hoping with the changes in parenting over the last few decades the ones coming up now will have more empathy - thank god for discussions re: toxic masculinity - but that doesn't help me much for my future in dating, unless I want a child groom And the fact that porn is now a non-starter for me has basically drained my dating pool down to either the uber-religious or old men who don't know how to use the internet. Nothing at all against those who are religious, or those of a certain age, but considering that I'm an agnostic who wants children, those aren't going to work either haha.

Also, I know this is the womenz thread, and we often talk about our husbands, ex husbands, boyfriends whatever, but hello there to all of you womenz who don't fall into that hetero-normative category! I know we have several women in same sex relationships on this site, just want to make sure you all feel welcome in this thread too!

TL;DR hugs to everyone, and kicks in the dick all around!

Oh, and FUCK Wednesdays!

EllieKMAS posted 9/25/2019 11:46 AM

Also, I know this is the womenz thread, and we often talk about our husbands, ex husbands, boyfriends whatever, but hello there to all of you womenz who don't fall into that hetero-normative category! I know we have several women in same sex relationships on this site, just want to make sure you all feel welcome in this thread too!

HHADL - Just saying, 'kick in the dick' is not only for actual dicks.... can also be spiritual dicks. Much in the same way as I am a girl, but can tell someone to suck my dick. So same sex womenz - KITD is just for when your partner/SO/Spouse is being a douchey wayward thinking asshat. Just clarifying

PS glad to see you back HHADL - you missed some shit since last time you were here

heartbroken83 posted 9/25/2019 12:49 PM

I would be honored to give my husband the Kick in the Dick award on most days...lmao

We are actually having a great week this week

TX1995 posted 9/25/2019 13:09 PM

Also, I know this is the womenz thread, and we often talk about our husbands, ex husbands, boyfriends whatever, but hello there to all of you womenz who don't fall into that hetero-normative category! I know we have several women in same sex relationships on this site, just want to make sure you all feel welcome in this thread too!

Very good point! A kick in the dick just has a nice ring to it. But really it just means a kick in the nether regions of whoever is being a DICK - whether or not they have one.

Good to see you HHADL! The no-porn factor for dating DOES seriously drain the pool. I tend to think that the only men who don't look at it are the ones who have seen how devastating it can be to a marriage and don't want to let it enter. Old, young, religious or secular, men seem to find porn, strip clubs and joking about either quite "normal". Apparently even getting a happy ending can be "normal" (when not married). I had no idea that most men thought that way, but since WH's honesty vomit, I have learned some VERY disturbing things about people I have known for the past 25-30 years. Men can be disgusting and their friends laugh and encourage it. Not to be political, but when the whole "grab her by the pussy" thing came out, I naively thought that was a smaller group of the population of men who had that kind of "locker talk". Nope. Apparently it's a majority. Even the ones leading groups at church, or your best buddies at work, baseball coaches and your own husband. They may not all LIKE it, but they definitely condone it.

Brokenheart, glad it's a good week for you and your WH.

DevastatedDee posted 9/25/2019 13:25 PM

I thought I was protecting myself, but with therapy I quickly figured out I was really setting myself up for failure. Because by being as closed off as I was, the ONLY kind of person who was going to be able to penetrate that wall was the love-bombing personality disordered kind. Enter Meth-head McSexAddict, my lovely XH. When I look back at it now I think, of course the girl who was only looking for a fuck buddy was going to attract a sex addict, duh! So we've really got to be careful ladies, let's not become emotionally stunted, or else we'll just attract that into our lives!

OMG, you just articulated my deepest fear about dating!!! I was SO independent and strong when I met my XWH that I suspect no normal guy was going to penetrate the walls I had up. I was looking for mostly FWBs as well. Now I know better and know what to look for, but if I was closed off and independent and strong before, I am triple that now. Well, "strong" may be the wrong word. I tend towards being self-sufficient to a fault, which is why I don't notice lack of effort from a man as quickly. I don't expect anyone to do things for me, so any little thing is a huge deal. He got lots of credit that he didn't deserve for piddly effort, I'm sure.

Yep, keeping myself out of the dating world for a bit longer, lol.

DevastatedDee posted 9/25/2019 13:28 PM

Let me sanity check myself. Is it bad to not "need" anyone or is that a positive thing?

I mean, it works for my daily life. It enabled me to leave my XWH without second-guessing myself. It meant he was an idiot to try that shit on me, mind you, lol, but still...I do worry that I'm too self-sufficient to be healthy.

TX1995 posted 9/25/2019 13:54 PM

Dee, I think it's pretty fucking healthy to not NEED someone. You want to be inter-dependent. Like they add some spice to your life, but you are pretty tasty and a whole meal without them.

I will give you an example as my mom. My father left her for his OW when I was 2.5 and my sister was 5. Just left. She didn't fight for support (even though he was a lawyer) bc he threatened to take us away. So he gave her VERY minimal financial support for us. And rarely saw us (every few months I'd say). My mom did not date. The first date she had post divorce was when I was in high school. She then had a boyfriend for a couple of years. Then another a few years after that. They were more like companions for her. She loves living alone. She filled up her life with friends, books, outings to the arts, her kids and grandkids, her church group and more recently political activism. She needs NO ONE. And she's happy. She doesn't NEED anyone. I think *I* want her to have a partner more than she wants one. She likes her independence. :)

EllieKMAS posted 9/25/2019 14:24 PM

I tend towards being self-sufficient to a fault, which is why I don't notice lack of effort from a man as quickly. I don't expect anyone to do things for me, so any little thing is a huge deal. He got lots of credit that he didn't deserve for piddly effort, I'm sure.

Yep, keeping myself out of the dating world for a bit longer, lol.

Dee..... DEEEEEE. Yes. 1000% this. I did the same damn thing with the ex-asshat. Now looking back and WTFing myself bigtime. And yeah, I am not in ANY rush to jump back in to dating... Ew.

That was one of the last heavy text exchanges we had... He said that I never 'needed' him (and aside - it's a good fucking thing too cus he is useless TBH), and that I'd be better off without him.
I agreed to both of those and told him that yeah, I never needed him, I wanted him and I deserve to find a guy who appreciates the difference between those two. Sigh.

Internet provider can suck my dick today for realz. Those jerks expect a 7 page document notarized, notarized copies of separation agmt and divorce decree (which I don't even have yet) in order to switch account from his name to my name. WTF. Lady I talked to was SOOOO annoying - she keeps saying "can I speak to Xwh?" I must have told her 10 gd times "we are divorcing, he lives 200 miles away, he is not here" and she'd say "sorry" and 90 seconds later "can I speak to Xwh?" *slap *SLAP SLAP SLAP

So I asked them if he could just cancel and I could set up new acct with my current equipment and she said yes that's an option. Then why in the name of cheese would I do all that other shit????

Fuck Wednesdays. Fuck internet providers. Fuck all of the shitheels who cheated and made us have to be here (tho that last one I am happy about cus y'all are fucking amazing).

DevastatedDee posted 9/25/2019 14:29 PM

That was one of the last heavy text exchanges we had... He said that I never 'needed' him (and aside - it's a good fucking thing too cus he is useless TBH), and that I'd be better off without him.

OMG same! My XWH said that was part of our problem, that I never needed him and he needed me. So I laughed, lol. But yeah, he was offended that I didn't need him. Like you say, damned good thing I didn't. And he could probably learn to not cheat on the people he "needs".

DevastatedDee posted 9/25/2019 14:30 PM

Dee, I think it's pretty fucking healthy to not NEED someone. You want to be inter-dependent. Like they add some spice to your life, but you are pretty tasty and a whole meal without them.
I will give you an example as my mom. My father left her for his OW when I was 2.5 and my sister was 5. Just left. She didn't fight for support (even though he was a lawyer) bc he threatened to take us away. So he gave her VERY minimal financial support for us. And rarely saw us (every few months I'd say). My mom did not date. The first date she had post divorce was when I was in high school. She then had a boyfriend for a couple of years. Then another a few years after that. They were more like companions for her. She loves living alone. She filled up her life with friends, books, outings to the arts, her kids and grandkids, her church group and more recently political activism. She needs NO ONE. And she's happy. She doesn't NEED anyone. I think *I* want her to have a partner more than she wants one. She likes her independence. :)

Okay, that makes me feel better! Thank you! Whew.

northeasternarea posted 9/25/2019 16:02 PM

My question is why do men who have a deep-seated need to be needed marry women who are independent? Captain Save a Ho should go find a needy damsel, not a self sufficient woman.

HeHadADoubleLife posted 9/25/2019 16:45 PM

My question is why do men who have a deep-seated need to be needed marry women who are independent? Captain Save a Ho should go find a needy damsel, not a self sufficient woman.


Ok, so many other things to respond to, but this gave me such a good laugh!

And I agree with you, for the life of me, I will never understand this. They ALL say they LOVE this about us in the beginning, and then they hate it by the end.

I mean look, I have some codependent/fixer tendencies I need to work on, and coupled with the being fiercely independent thing I can be an unstoppable force. But at least I wasn't under any delusions that Meth-head McSexAddict wasn't a serious fixer-upper.

[This message edited by HeHadADoubleLife at 4:45 PM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

Lostheart8 posted 9/25/2019 16:47 PM

Why the fuck do I have to miss the cheating liar?

Who’s away on business trip, meeting up with his cheating sack of a woman?

Read a funny quote....don’t give that man wife benefits, just give him a can of cold ravioli.

EllieKMAS posted 9/25/2019 16:56 PM

NEArea - OMG that made me snort out loud

And riiiiiight???? Like I never asked you to "save" me motherfucker. All I wanted was for you to not be a lying sack of shit. Apparently that was asking too much.

HHADL - Meth Head McSexAddict Crying lol - I am deaded!

LH8 - Sending hugs dear. The missing part sucks!!

HeHadADoubleLife posted 9/25/2019 17:06 PM

Just saying, 'kick in the dick' is not only for actual dicks.... can also be spiritual dicks. Much in the same way as I am a girl, but can tell someone to suck my dick.
Very good point! A kick in the dick just has a nice ring to it. But really it just means a kick in the nether regions of whoever is being a DICK - whether or not they have one.
Ahhhhh, so it's like Big Dick Energy, but for being an asshole. I get it now

Never fear Ellie, I'm never really gone, just reading from afar haha. I read here everyday, I just don't always reply because, as you've seen, I tend to write in dissertation format. I can't help it. I see things in patterns and how it all interconnects and then as I begin to write I see everyone else replying, and what starts off as one paragraph quickly evolves into an essay.

Thanks to anyone who actually reads all my word vomit. I'll always try to include a TL;DR at the bottom for those who want to skim

crazyblindsided posted 9/25/2019 17:10 PM

My question is why do men who have a deep-seated need to be needed marry women who are independent?

Wow this is the million dollar question! Mine also said that I didn't 'need' him and it made him feel less than poor cookie.

My therapist says it's because Narcissists are attracted to people THEY want to be like and eventually they get jealous of this and start to break the person down to their level. Disgusting freaks!

HeHadADoubleLife posted 9/25/2019 17:11 PM

Also, I agree with TX re: inter-dependence.

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