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Found out wife (39) is having EA with co-worker

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Meers posted 11/14/2019 20:26 PM

Please be very careful about doing anything that affects your wife's earning potential without FIRST discussing it with your lawyer. The amount of support a court will order you to pay to her can depend on her income and earning potential.

Thumos posted 11/14/2019 22:43 PM

As we’ve said there are three separate legal actions that need to be considered, coordinated and sequenced appropriately — but you won’t know squat about how to proceed unless you get moving with a divorce attorney and employment law attorney NOW and insist they talk to each other to help you.

The three actions are:

1. Divorce
2. Claim against her company with the company acting to terminate the AP douchebag.
3. Alienation of affection lawsuit against the AP under NC law. If your divorce attorney won’t do this or can’t , several other attorneys in NC will take this particular case. They’ve been in the news lately.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:44 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]

MickeyBill2016 posted 11/15/2019 01:13 AM

The amount of support a court will order you to pay to her can depend on her income and earning potential.

It is not always that simple. Income and earning potential are 2 different things.
A friend used to work in the S Florida court system. A big part of the job was determining court ordered payments.
If a WW has a 20 year solid work history at 100k per year and gets let go because of banging the boss, they will look at the 20 years not the last 6 months. She would say I am sorry about your current financial situation but you will need to go find another job with equal pay, you have done it for 20 years, you can do it again.

To be honest, if Master sues the Co, the VP will be let go with a probably a severance package the WW will be left alone to avoid a sexual harassment suit filed by her. It will be al ong time before she gets another promotion.

Bigheart2018 posted 11/15/2019 03:01 AM

Good Post Mickey and very true!!!!!

Buffer posted 11/15/2019 03:39 AM

One day at a time brother,

Booyah posted 11/15/2019 11:31 AM

I know you're still reeling from the betrayal but listen you are sitting on a MULTI MILLION DOLLAR TICKET right now.

I know $ isn't on your mind right now but trust me when the dust settles this is something that will help bring some justice to this situation (specifically with this piece of shit other man).

TAKE ACTION NOW!!!

Shockedmom posted 11/15/2019 14:53 PM

How are you doing today?

Thumos posted 11/17/2019 14:37 PM

Just checking in and wanted to see how you are doing this weekend?

This is a lot to deal with all at once, but you have it within you and you will get through this.

None of us know you or have met you face to face, but we care about you as another human soul. As people who have been thru what you are now dealing with, we want the best for you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:38 PM, November 17th (Sunday)]

Carissima posted 11/17/2019 17:40 PM

Not to pour doom and gloom on this thread but in my experience it's not the high up member of the board who gets fired! Oh they may get penalised with a sideways move or even a demotion. If they do leave it'll be with a golden handshake and probably a glowing recommendation for their next job to sweeten deal!

Your wife is more likely to to be penalised for breaking any fraternisation policies within the firm which is why it's important to speak to a competent lawyer who will give you a realistic expectation of the possible outcome.

Thumos posted 11/18/2019 07:16 AM

Not to pour doom and gloom on this thread but in my experience it's not the high up member of the board who gets fired! Oh they may get penalised with a sideways move or even a demotion. If they do leave it'll be with a golden handshake and probably a glowing recommendation for their next job to sweeten deal!

I respectfully disagree. The CEO of McDonald’s just had to step down in a most humiliating fashion because of an inappropriate relationship. There’s much lower tolerance for this in corporate America now. Besides, he’s a VP and expendable, not a board member. And he’s the VP of HR which is deeply problematic for the company. The exposure here is red alert territory. They will heave him over the side in a heartbeat.

Masters2020 posted 11/18/2019 09:36 AM

I really appreciate the check in's, they help a lot. It's nice to know that someone who doesn't know me in person cares.

I'm in a very strange spot right now. I know most, if not all, of you have been through it, so you understand better than anyone possibly could. I go from wanting to be back with her, wishing things were different, wishing she never cheated and we worked on our relationship together...to getting very angry and feeling the hurt all over again. I'm a rare person that requires a lot of physical touch, hugging, kissing, etc. When I think about her I go from, I miss her, love her, and want to snuggle with her, to disgust, anger, and disbelief that she could do this to me and our family.

We went to a party at a friend's house on Saturday night. We've promised to try to not talk about the situation, and not fight. Trying to enjoy each other's company. However, she asked me a question, I responded, and it ended up that we got into a fight. She still defends her position, we only kissed a few times, it's because you weren't giving me what I needed, etc. She even said that if I was in a big office, like she is, and I developed a friendship like relationship with a female co-worker, the same would happen. Once again she's trying to justify her actions in saying that I would do it. I got really angry at that comment and said absolutely not, I don't cheat on my wife, I made vows in front of God. Her response, well you've done plenty of things God wouldn't be happy with (ie, watch porn, not exactly the same).

We went to the party, had a good time, and were relaxed on the way home. Sunday was a good day.

What I'm getting at here is, she takes full responsibility for her affair, but always points it back to the situation we were in, and says it was bound to happen. BS, you don't cheat when the going gets tough, you work on it with your spouse, the person you married. Or you end it if you're not happy.

I told her, and I believe, that in years down the road, she'll realize her mistake more fully and it will hit her. Will it come soon enough, I don't know.

My thoughts are this...separate in the new year for a period and let us breathe. If we can work it out, great, if not, we sell the house and move on. She travels the first week of December, I travel for a full week right before Christmas, then we're going back to St. Louis for Christmas. Timing just doesn't work to do it right now, although I think it may hit her harder and sooner if we did.

I deserve someone who I love and loves me back, I deserve someone who I can trust. I'm trying my best for the kids, who I love more than life itself. I know I can't do it only for them, but I'm making this last ditch effort. I wish she would realize how much this hurt me, the mistake she made, and be willing to make an effort.

It's been almost a month, and the pain is still present every second of every day.

[This message edited by Masters2020 at 9:37 AM, November 18th (Monday)]

oldtruck posted 11/18/2019 09:47 AM

just kissing?

did you polygraph your WW?

WW is not owning it: she says if you worked in an
office you would do it too. Also defending it by
you did not met her needs.

the final nail in the coffin is that she still
works with the OM

Buster123 posted 11/18/2019 09:56 AM

she takes full responsibility for her affair, but always points it back to the situation we were in, and says it was bound to happen. BS, you don't cheat when the going gets tough, you work on it with your spouse, the person you married. Or you end it if you're not happy.

She's still trying to minimize and justify her A, because of that she's no R material at this point, what happens when the same situation presents itself again in the future ? you guessed it, it's "bound to happen" again.

I wish she would realize how much this hurt me, the mistake she made, and be willing to make an effort.

Put down the "hopium pipe" if she's not "willing to make an effort" you have nothing to work with at the moment, you can't nice her back in the the M, it never works, btw this was no "mistake" she willingly made the choice to cheat and kept doing it those "few times", a mistake is when you accidentally take a wrong turn on the street or grab a whole milk bottle instead of 1%, she DECIDED to cheat with every step she took.

Your WW should be bending over backwards to make this work and begging for forgiveness yet she seems kind of defiant and cold trying to justify her decision to cheat, have you exposed her huge betrayal with her parents/your parents and close friends yet ? if no, I encourage you to do it ASAP, tell her you need their support in going through this, she needs the embarrassment of it, if there's a chance at a successful R (which you don't have at the moment) she needs to own up to it without justifications, a good talk between you, her and her parents/your parents may help.

Buster123 posted 11/18/2019 10:03 AM

the final nail in the coffin is that she still
works with the OM

If she still works with OM then she's still working in that "big office", the A may go deep uderground and/or resume at some point in the future. If there's a chance to R, one of them should quit, if OM is a superior go to HR and report him, otherwise tell your WW she needs to quit ASAP as a condition to R, yes another consequence of her huge betrayal, if she refuses just file for D (it takes a long time and can be stopped if she comes around), if her job is more important to her than the M, then you don't have one.

Ponus18 posted 11/18/2019 10:08 AM

What I'm getting at here is, she takes full responsibility for her affair, but always points it back to the situation we were in, and says it was bound to happen.

This is the exact opposite of taking full (or any, for that matter) responsibility for an affair.

She is continuing to gaslight you.

And of course she has not told you the full truth about anything.

It sounds like you know all of this but it's important to reiterate so you don't get bamboozled.

ShutterHappy posted 11/18/2019 10:41 AM

"I take full responsibility except that in big offices, people kiss all the time "

Thumos posted 11/18/2019 12:04 PM

Masters,

You're getting some really good advice here. Please take it and implement it.

You're doing some things right, but gently, some other things wrong. I'm worried that if you don't move fast now, you're going to end up in a spiral of self-recrimination, regret and very deep anger (where I find myself) later. You will wish you'd acted decisively. Please do act in your best interests right now.

I was in a similar spot as you three years ago, even around the holidays. The difference is I didn't have a community of very insightful people telling me to pull my head out of my posterior. If I had, there are a lot of things I would have done differently. We're trying to save you from that.

Have you VAR'd her? Have you consulted with an employment law attorney? Have you demanded she take an STD panel, since STD's can be spread through deep kissing (yes, really)? Have you exposed the affair to her family (not just her father)? Has she delivered an NC text and email to AP and proven this to you? Has she given you a WRITTEN timeline? Etc. Etc.

In short, have you delivered the package of non-negotiables to her that I and others recommended at the beginning of this entire thread? If not, then any circular nonsense discussions with her and dancing around the idea of separation are going to get you more heartbreak and pain.

I sense both strength and hesitation in your update. That's normal. Gird yourself. Do not go weak in the face of her tears, equivocations and words. Women are better verbal communicators and they can dance around men with verbal gymnastics and really toy with your mind. Keep your mind focused here.

When I was confronted with this shitshow three years ago, I exposed to her family, I demanded NC and got it. But I went soft along the way, and I'm only now asserting that package of non-negotiables. I could have saved myself more than 1,000 days of torment and pain by ripping the band-aid off three years ago. I don't want that for you. I want to see you get clear here.

Some things to consider:

I'm a rare person that requires a lot of physical touch, hugging, kissing, etc.

This isn't rare. It's normal. It's what a normal empathetic human being craves and should be given. If your WW hasn't been doing that for you hitherto in the marriage, then she's the outlier, not you. She's the one who hasn't been meeting your needs, which a normal loving wife would do. On top of that, she doesn't respect you and has done the most disrespectful thing a woman can do to a man. In fact, she holds you in contempt and considers you a comfortable significant other she had children with -- a pack mule for hauling groceries around and chauffeuring the kids. She thinks she's entitled to a boyfriend on the side. Get it?

I'm in a very strange spot right now. I know most, if not all, of you have been through it, so you understand better than anyone possibly could. I go from wanting to be back with her, wishing things were different, wishing she never cheated and we worked on our relationship together...to getting very angry and feeling the hurt all over again.

It may feel "strange," but in fact it's a perfectly normal human response to betrayal trauma from the one person you trusted above all others. Your brain, your nervous system, your endocrinal system, everything in your body is in hyperdrive now working overtime to stabilize a patient that is bleeding out. Soon, if you haven't already, your system will flood with endogenous opioids (the body's very own Dr. Feelgood drugs for a body that is in shock). You'll go a bit more numb. At the same time, your brain is now at Defcon 1. As far as your brain is concerned, Kruschev's finger is one tic away from the nuclear button. Your beautiful mind will continue to assert anger and other rational alert thoughts whenever you feel weak and start to go soft in your WW's presence. This is because your system is trying to protect you from further danger.

And you need to be protected, my friend.

Just be aware that the wanting to be back with her is the residue of a marriage you thought you had. That marriage is now dead as a doornail. You just haven't realized it completely yet.

Your brain is trying to puzzle through the very complex reality that this person in front of you is not the wife you thought you had. So remember that in more ways than not, your residue love is for a person who doesn't exist. The person in front of you .. that's your real wife. It's who she has been all along. Once you get your head wrapped around that, your feelings of limbo about R vs. D will become easier to sort out. You may decided to R with her in the long run, but forevermore you'll know the real her that she's been hiding from you for many years. This is who she is.

We've promised to try to not talk about the situation, and not fight.

Horrible, no good, terrible, very bad idea. Do not assent to this. She doesn't get to set these terms. My WW pulled this stunt. Don't let it slide. Tell her you will talk about it and talk about it and talk about it. And you'll be angry about it. And she will need to face your anger. For years. If she's not down for that, she's NOT RECONCILIATION MATERIAL.

She even said that if I was in a big office, like she is, and I developed a friendship like relationship with a female co-worker, the same would happen. Once again she's trying to justify her actions in saying that I would do it. I got really angry at that comment and said absolutely not, I don't cheat on my wife, I made vows in front of God. Her response, well you've done plenty of things God wouldn't be happy with (ie, watch porn, not exactly the same).

I'm glad you saw through this for the absolute horseshit it is. Adulterers say the most astonishing ridiculous hurtful things because they are astonishing, hurtful people. A few additional thoughts:

- The moral equivocation is quite common. It's a form of rationalization. My WW did another version of this when we discussed the sacred marital covenant and vows. She tried to say that 'we've both broken our vows in different ways.' Sound kinda familiar? That's because THEY ALL work from the same sad cheater's script. My wife would never elaborate on this when challenged, because she had nothing to back it up. It was just more shit cheaters say.

- Also, the porn thing is a version of "Fireproof." She's trying to "Fireproof" by saying "you watch porn, so I was entitled to an affair" (this is the actual plot of this so-called "Christian" movie). While the porn may be ethically dubious (and it is, and you should stop that, but that's for another discussion) it has no bearing on her decision to commit adultery. The two are not the same at all.

- Saying you would do the same thing in a big office should make you coldly furious. And did you notice she's implicitly admitting it will happen again as long as she works in a "big office"?!? It's a lie straight from the Enemy. Do not let her pull you into the moral abyss she's willingly leapt into. You don't have to be in infidelity with her. That's her own private hell she created for herself.

Read Proverbs 30:20 one more time please, and really let it sink in. Because this is describing your WW almost perfectly right now.

What I'm getting at here is, she takes full responsibility for her affair, but always points it back to the situation we were in, and says it was bound to happen.

It's already been pointed out, but this is exactly the opposite of taking responsibility. This rationalization, minimization, blameshifting and gaslighting.

My thoughts are this...separate in the new year for a period and let us breathe. If we can work it out, great, if not, we sell the house and move on. She travels the first week of December, I travel for a full week right before Christmas, then we're going back to St. Louis for Christmas. Timing just doesn't work to do it right now, although I think it may hit her harder and sooner if we did.

For what it's worth, and of course this is only my opinion: YOU SHOULD SEPARATE NOW.

The timing is never good to separate. It always sucks. There's never a good time.

The time is now. Not after the New Year. Let her stew over the holidays in the shit soup she created.

This is one of the worst cases I've read here on SI of a WW not feeling remorse and showing how unsuited she currently is to reconciliation.

She is unsafe at any speed.

Put a separation agreement in front of her NOW. Do not delay. There's no reason to delay, you will only signal weakness, and you'll end up severely regretting it.

If she does the ENTIRE package of non-negotiables after you've separated, then you can consider reconciling, and you can tell her that.

Separate now. Do not put this off.

I deserve someone who I love and loves me back, I deserve someone who I can trust. I'm trying my best for the kids, who I love more than life itself. I know I can't do it only for them, but I'm making this last ditch effort. I wish she would realize how much this hurt me, the mistake she made, and be willing to make an effort.

You got the first part of this right. The last part is wrong. You're not making a last ditch effort here, you're letting her get away with it, potentially driving the affair underground for it to continue, and allowing her to control the terms and the narrative. You're allowing the "fog" to continue to drift into her mind.

A last ditch effort would be to separate immediately, give her the package of non-negotiables you need from her immediately, and then maybe you'll consider reconciling with her. That's a last ditch effort. That's shock and awe.

So one more time:

1. This isn't an EA. It's a full blown PA. This needs to be said over and over because she's still gaslighting you. She's lying her ass off. STILL LYING TO YOU, EVEN NOW! Deep kissing happened, bodies made contact, and she had sex with him. Bet on it. She wanted it, planned it, made sure it would happen. She exposed you to potential STD's. And she is not remorseful about it. At all.

1a. Separate now. Signed separation agreement giving you primary custody of the children, based on the emotional duress she's placed them under and behavioral problems you've noted with your kids because of her erratic actions. If you delay on this, you'll get divorce raped bc you stayed with her and courts will consider that forgiveness.

1b. Separate legal action from an employment attorney on the workplace issue. Make sure the two attorneys coordinate timing and sequence on this.

1c. Separate legal action on an alienation of affection lawsuit against her AP. The one-two punch of two separate actions against him will break him; and he needs to be broken, not for revenge, but because it creates a massive zone of safety for you to begin to heal and think and pray. Along with exposing to OBS (which you already did) it also severs once and for all with utter finality any ongoing limerence and relationship between the AP and your WW.

2. Expose the affair to her immediate family (not just her dad). Tell them in no uncertain terms this is why you are separating, that she's continuing to be untruthful and unremorseful, that she exposed you to STDs with deep kissing (even as she laughably claims no sex), that she's blameshifting and gaslighting you. Tell them you understand blood is thicker than water, and that you've given your WW a very precise list of things she will need to execute if there's any hope of reconciling with you.

2a. She needs to quit her job if she wants to stay with you. Again, you should ask your divorce attorney about this before demanding it. But given that she's a good earner, she should be able to get another job quickly.

3. Access to her devices, email accounts, social media, everything. No nonsense from her about "privacy" -- if she wants to help you heal, then privacy ends. She must hand them over willingly and you will use retrieval software to download everything that's been deleted. Again, this is non-negotiable. Not up for debate. She either does it or you walk. Don't screw around with this or get in an involved circular discussion with her. It's "Hand the phone over right now or we're done."

4. Give her the package of non-negotiables below. This is an all or nothing package. It's a take it or leave proposition. Be ready to walk and mean it with a fervor down to your gonads.

Along with the above actions, here's the package she gets as a take it or leave proposition:

A. Immediate NC with AP and document it. Maybe she should even apologize to the OBS in writing (some others may weigh in on this, but it gives you documented proof of her irresponsible and erratic actions in writing in her own hand).

B. Immediate IC for both of you, preferably with therapists who specialize in betrayal trauma. You are the victim of betrayal trauma now, but that doesn't mean you need to stay a victim. IC is for her to own this and figure out why she's such a fuck up. IC is for you to process and heal. No MC -- too late! That marriage is dead, dead, dead. It doesn't need "counseling." It needs to be buried. A new one could emerge, but only if she works to make it happen.

C. Full STD panel for her and for you. This must happen. Tell her this is what you want and it's not up for debate. If she can't do this minimal thing for your peace of mind, then you need to be quits with her.

D. Written timeline of the entire affair. Detailed, WRITTEN, narrative timeline. This makes her put it in black and white and puts psychic pressure on her. In this case, give her a week to finish it and hand it over. She had plenty of time to screw around with a co-worker, she's got plenty of time to detail her affair in writing for you.

E. Polygraph exam for her tested against the timeline for veracity and truthfulness. Polys are cheap in the long run, about $500 or less. Better accuracy with one single question, like "did you have sex" but you can ask additional questions for the same price (the accuracy goes down a little bit with each added question, however). Polys are accurate. The FBI, U.S. Senate, intelligence community and military all use them for a reason. The poly is also a tool to exert tremendous psychic pressure on her to come clean. You'll read a lot here about the proverbial parking lot confession. It's not cruel, it's rational and smart. You need to be rational, cold and smart right now.

F. Moving forward, a post nuptial agreement for you to protect you from divorce rape in the event of future infidelity. She's demonstrated a worldview callously capable of adultery. Cheaters don't always repeat, but post nups are recommended for a reason.

G. As I already said, she secures another equal paying job, and quits her job and reports the infidelity to HR. It sounds like they were screwing around on the job, so this is a MUST.

H. She must read and implement How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair. No balking, no weaseling, no delays. Then she provides a written plan for how she will implement all of the book's
"to do list" immediately.

Lastly, VAR her. You need intel, and she's not a trustworthy person.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:12 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

Thumos posted 11/18/2019 12:25 PM

One more thing. Normally, religion and politics are shied away from on SI. So in case a moderator is reading this, I'm only mentioning the below because it is highly relevant, especially in Southern evangelical settings.

It needs to be mentioned to protect Masters from bad advice:

Do not let ANYONE snow you with insipid talk about trying to emulate the prophet Hosea. This is one of those terrible unbiblical things that is passed around repeatedly in evangelical American settings these days, always in the context of an adulterous wife. It is complete nonsense. God never demands we emulate the prophets outlandish behavior (they did crazy stuff, like walking around naked in a city). Hosea was burdened for whatever reason with having to take back his lying, adulterous, unrepentant wife Gomer (what a perfectly ugly and suitable name for an adulterous wife). That's not an expectation for anyone else -- and it's toxic to suggest otherwise.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:29 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

MickeyBill2016 posted 11/18/2019 12:28 PM

For what it's worth I dated a girl for a couple years who considered make out sessions and oral to be more intimate than just good old fucking.

So I always chuckle when people say "it was just kissing".

Hang in there, I hope that you get out of infidelity.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 2:28 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

Thumos posted 11/18/2019 14:50 PM

Masters,

I wanted to provide a brief comparison/contrast on mistakes I made so you'll see why some of us are so adamant about you considering the list of non-negotiables with your WW.

While it's true that every situation of infidelity is unique, it's also true that, just as with marriages, there are many commonalities and routine mental models can be applied commonly to each situation. So you and I are not the same, we live in different parts of the U.S., we have different backgrounds, we're different ages. BUT. We're both dealing with very common situations. Infidelity is rampant, and women have achieved parity with men (or had it all along) in being unfaithful.

What I did right:

-I VAR'd her. This led to undeniable proof, and I was able to confidently confront.
-I exposed the affair to her family.
-I insisted on NC right away. I got it.
-I did not allow her to fudge facts. This led to a trickle truth D-Day 2 more than a week later in which she admitted to sex "one time."
-I did not allow her to rewrite the history of our marriage. I refused to participate in it.

So some good stuff right. But here are my mistakes -- and they have been costly:

-I agreed to marital counseling right away - big mistake. It completely confused me and made me feel worse. The therapist minimized my emasculation and helped create an unhealthy dynamic where for a time we didn't talk about the affair anymore. We’re no longer in MC.

-I agreed not to tell the OBS - huge mistake. I only contacted the OBS more than a year later. She was not responsive to my questions about details and just wanted to move on.

-I agreed to reconcile right away - big mistake. It should have been hard 180. We should have separated immediately and then she should have had to demonstrate a desire to reconcile through non-negotiable actions.

-I “forgave” her right away - but it was forced and fake and that completely backfired. It was really just a version of the "pick me" dance, and I felt ashamed by it later. Real forgiveness is a process; not an epiphany.

-I agreed to stay and we started HB sex right away - big mistake. Distance and time should have been created for me to think straight and not be tortured with having to "perform" in the midst of painful mind movies.

-I failed to push a hard line on WRITTEN timeline, an STD test right away, and for a polygraph measured against the written timeline. This would have allowed me much more peace of mind very early on, and much less agony over the past three years.

-I’ve allowed my thinking to be heavily influenced by friends telling me to stay (devout Christians). I’m not saying they are wrong. I’m saying they have no grid for understanding the trauma I’ve experienced and their advice is not all that helpful.

-I allowed her to keep the phone from me and destroy the texts. There's a huge debate about "how much" you need to know. This is a meaningless discussion. You need as much as YOU NEED. In my view, knowing the real truth about the affair is healthier than living a lie with someone.

So please don't do what I did. File. Separate. Give her the nonnegotiable package. Expose to her family. Then focus on you and see what happens.

Here's something you'll find: Your wife just knocked herself off that pedestal you had her on, and then dynamited it. It's sinking in for you (I can tell) that this is the real her, along with the good stuff over the years, too. But you're slowly realizing how utterly unremarkable she is, how many great women are out there, and you're starting to wonder if you want to stay married to this self-absorbed dumb ass. The shine is off and she's not really all that attractive, is she? Sure, she might be pretty. But there are lots of pretty women who are warm and kind and generous and won't commit adultery. Attractiveness and compatibility are common and unremarkable, or our species would have died out long ago. She's nothing special; she never was. And now she's certainly damaged goods.

She's going to have to go a long ways and do a ton of work for you to see her as good marriage material again. Right now, she thinks she got one over and you're desperate. That's not how you feel and she needs to know it. She needs to understand just how unremarkable and damaged she is. She's not "great ROI" as they say in corporate America. She's a bad investment, in fact. A dangerous investment. Until and unless she starts doing the heavy lifting, you need to create significant space between you and her.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:51 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

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