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So I’m the BW and I’m still learning new things about the affair.

But my WH disagree on this, he says he loved and never stopped, I say BS if you loved me this wouldn’t have happened so clearly he didn’t love me. I was a freaking safety net, the one that never rejected him. I’m the having the cake and eating it too. He was sleeping with me and the OW at the same time like it was no issue. That is not love, I’ve told him this. I’ve told he just doesn’t see it yet.

Two different perspectives here.

The cheater truly believes they love their spouse. BUT want some extra sex on the side. In their minds ( ) they don’t view the cheating as being caused by the fact “they don’t love their spouse” in some cases. For some reason they believe one has nothing to do with the other.

The betrayed perspective is the opposite. Betrayed spouse’s believe “the cheater doesn’t love them while they are cheating”. It makes sense. You don’t intentionally hurt and disrespect people you love.

I don’t have an answer but I agree with you. A cheater cannot love their spouse if they are cheating.

But cheaters will tell you differently. Doesn’t mean you have to accept it or believe it.

So basically a cheater can’t actually differentiate between the two. They love us but are happy to have sex with some one else.

How can they not comprehend that they don’t love us. I don’t I understand how they don’t get this. It’s so clear to me.

I find that the answer lies in what the betrayed wants or needs the answer to be. Some betrayeds are offended at the idea that their WS didn't love them. Too hurtful? Some betrayeds are outraged at the idea that their WS did love them. Too disrespectful? You feel however you feel on the subject, and that's fine.

I think it just varies so much case by case. With my XWH, his capacity to love is just different from normal humans. I'm sure he loved me as best he was able. It's just that his ability to love and care for others is so fundamentally flawed due to his selfish nature. He treats his current fiancee the same way. He told me he didn't treat his big-deal ex before me very well (although he didn't cheat on her).

I don't know how your marriage was pre-infidelity. Mine wasn't ever great. Did he treat you well, and then cheat? That's a different scenario that I just can't speak to. I don't understand how a person who really IS good at loving their spouse can cheat, and still love them.

I don’t I understand how they don’t get this. It’s so clear to me.

But think about how screwed up their thinking is to have an affair in the first place. Does it surprise you how flawed his thinking can be?

The bottom line is---he did NOT love you during his affair. Why? Because YOU get to decide what your definition of love is....and by your definition, he did not love you. Any time he gets pouty or frustrated with that statement, you can tell him to go pound sand. The love that you are talking about is a verb....not an unconditional love that you may have with, as an example, a child that you gave birth to. I'd be willing to bet that in the vast majority of physically abusive relationships, the abuser loves their partner.

But that declaration only makes the person look more disturbed.

If love does not represent a predicable set of behaviors, it has no value to me. What value is love, if it can coexist with betrayals, lies, rejection, etc. I'm so glad you still loved me while you were gaslighting, cheating, and breaking all the promises to each other. What sort of balm is a love that coexists with abuse? You can NEVER know what someone feels. You can only think you know. But you can know what someone does, as a reflection of what they feel. How they treat you. What level of devotion they show. The sacrifices they make for you. What they do reflects their love for you.

How does one get any solace or relief from the "love" of a cheating, lying, abusive, partner. Call it love if you want. Of what value is their view of love? There is an inherent reasonable set of assumptions about what love means in terms of the relationship. Coexisting abuse and betrayal with love would make a mockery of love. Who would marry someone if they said, please understand, I believe in a love that can include betrayal and rejection and abuse. You good with that?

I think when a BS goes searching and wrangling over did my abusive, cheating spouse love me, it is mostly related to the painful healing path that a BS has to slog through.

[This message edited by DIFM at 5:54 AM, November 9th, 2020 (Monday)]

I got the "I don't know how I feel about you anymore" of course he was already about 6 months into his 2+ year affair.

Not sure my FWH loved himself much during that time. Of course he was showing every sign of classic Affair behavior and I wrote it off to his fathers death a few months before.

D Day is coming up in a few days...it's been 8 years in recovery. Today I know he loves me.

DIFM, love your answer.

Can you love your wife while having an affair with another?

No, love would not have allowed you to have an affair.

Can you hate your wife while having an affair with another?

Yes, hate is what allowed you to have an affair.

I agree with the others here. Your WH is showing you that he clearly doesn't understand the level of betrayal. IMO, a WS could not cheat, lie, betray their BS if they were truly in love with BS. There are a myriad of reasons why a WS fails. They are selfish, broken people, and can tell themselves many different things to justify they A. "As long as BS doesn't know, they won't be hurt". "I'm never going to leave BS because I love them, so it's OK". and on and on. None of this negates the facts of the A and the fallout that BS's have to deal with. If you loved someone, you would NOT put them through that.

WS here. I suspect that your WH is being sincere as far as it goes, because he has a flawed and limited definition of love.

If you asked me, "During the affair, did you enjoy spending time with your BH, was he attractive to you, did you have great sex, did you miss him when he wasn't around, did you admire his skills and talents, did you like doing things to make him happy, did you still have dreams and plans for the future with him, was staying with him your Plan A," then the answer would have been yes, and I'd have argued that that proved I still loved him.

But if you said, "Did you have his back, did you keep your promises to him, did you respect his agency, did you put the needs of your relationship ahead of your own selfish desires, did your actions reflect genuine care for his well-being," I wouldn't have wanted to look at those questions, because the answer was obviously no.

Some WS detach and vilify their spouses in order to justify an affair. Others compartmentalize and persuade themselves that they can sustain an affair without it affecting their marriage. The latter category is more likely to insist that they loved their spouse during the A, and they think they're telling the truth. It's an incomplete and totally inadequate understanding of what love means.

My XWH would have said throughout his many affairs that yes he loved me. And in his way I think he did (and probably still does). But he couldn't understand why I didn't see it the same way!

No. no way.

The betrayal, the lies, the secrecy, the gas lighting, the manipulation, the disregard & disrespect shown to a faithful partner during any betrayal screams out many things,

Love is not one of those things.

You don’t treat the person you love in this way.

It’s more than likely they love themselves more when they betray a ‘so called loved one’

ETA...typo

[This message edited by BigBlueEyes at 10:01 AM, November 9th (Monday)]

No.

During the affair, you do not love your wife with respect, kindness and gratitude.

Maybe I'm stupid to believe that someone could love another person and still have an affair. That's what I think though. This is under the concept that love is a *feeling* and not some defined set of actions, or combination of behaviors.

Why? First, it is possible the affair isn't necessarily about love. It could be any number of reasons or coping strategies. People do dumb and selfish shit even when they are in love. One of those dumb and selfish things is have an affair. But any number of things could fill this gap. Gambling, drugs, hiding other things (secret purchases), taking too much time for yourself at work or in a hobby. These are things that are bad for you and substantially harm the person you love. These are done mostly out of weakness and lack of impulse control. The inability to balance your life appropriately doesn't mean you don't love the other person.

For a second line of thought, and not trying to apologize for cheaters, especially those that cheat then ask for an open marriage, I do think it's possible for many people to love more than one person romantically at the same time. That's not compatible with everyone. I won't stand for it personally because I'm possessive and prefer committed monogamy. But that doesn't mean it's the only solution. It's entirely possible a WS loves their BS and their AP at the same time (though not usually true). They combine this with a personal weakness like above, and you have a recipe for a lot of hurt and disaster.

So there you go. I might be a little off the typical path on this thought process for most BSs, but that's my view. You can love someone AND betray them. Arguably, it wouldn't be a betrayal if they didn't love their BS. They would probably have a more healthy reaction. Say, "I'm sorry BS, but I just don't love you anymore." Then leave. Then find someone new. Sure that would hurt, but with no love existing in the first place, the betrayal is gone.

I'm with DIFM, and this:

Some WS detach and vilify their spouses in order to justify an affair. Others compartmentalize and persuade themselves that they can sustain an affair without it affecting their marriage. The latter category is more likely to insist that they loved their spouse during the A, and they think they're telling the truth. It's an incomplete and totally inadequate understanding of what love means.

My WH is in the latter category (I think - he's not really done much work).

To me, it doesn't matter what the cheater thinks. Whatever their concept of "love" is, is extremely dangerous and harmful to me. If lying and fucking someone else is "love", then I want no part of it.

say BS if you loved me this wouldn’t have happened so clearly he didn’t love me. I was a freaking safety net, the one that never rejected him. I’m the having the cake and eating it too. He was sleeping with me and the OW at the same time like it was no issue. That is not love, I’ve told him this. I’ve told he just doesn’t see it yet

This is extremely flawed thinking. People who become WS do it because they are fundamentally broken. Their mental health is not good, and saying they loved or didn't love you because of their actions is flawed. The cheater or WS is ultimately so mired in their own stuff everything else falls away. This is represented in a lot of different ways depending on how the WS tries to keep up appearances, or justify their actions.

For me my WH was incredibly mean and unhappy, and NOTHING I did was wrong, not enough, and it made me feel like I was crazy. Of course this was him trying to rewrite things to justify his actions. I think he was ultimately heading toward D with me so he could be with her, that was the fantasy. But ultimately he knew that was wrong, and thus the internal conflict.

As BSR stated

But if you said, "Did you have his back, did you keep your promises to him, did you respect his agency, did you put the needs of your relationship ahead of your own selfish desires, did your actions reflect genuine care for his well-being," I wouldn't have wanted to look at those questions, because the answer was obviously no

I think this is where a lot of WS's fall. They don't want the M to end, but they also want the ego kibbles and false positivity they are getting out of the A.

So my ultimate answer is No. You aren't loving your wife, your AP, or yourself because you are broken, and having so much self conflict they are completely self absorbed. It's fantasy land. It is not reality, and when reality comes crashing down, just like a broken person will do, they blame everyone and everything else.

No.

During the affair, you do not love your wife with respect, kindness and gratitude.

I agree. And, if one can defend that they loved the person that they disrespected, was unkind to, and had no gratitude for........of what possible value could there be in the concept of love. So what, to love, would be the question.

Feelings can often be as fickle as dust in the wind. Good luck in placing your expectations in that.

There is a reason that, "But I love him/her" is used to justify poor decisions. This phrase doesn't exist because love is some portion of rational self interest.