SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I hear your concern, and I appreciate you trying to look out for me. I understand the risks of starting a family with him, but honestly with this happening we will postpone having children at least 2 years. I think in that amount of time I will have a clear idea of how much work is being put in and whether it's enough for me to feel confident. I will also make sure I can take care of myself and any kiddos.

I will say though that it doesn't read very understanding or supportive when posters just say run to childless BS's. I'm not sure you achieve the desired effect with newcomers. Just something you may want to consider. The responses in the last couple of pages read more empathetic while still getting your point across IMO.

Thanks for the reading suggestions. I'll look them up.

I don't want to add a lot more details about my specific case as this was meant to be a more general question.

So how would you really ever know whether the WS has changed in fundamental ways, or is just performing another act in their little screenplay of lies?

I can give you lots of examples of what I know is fundamentally wrong with my WS, the FOO damage he needs to heal, but here are just a couple.

1. Does he get defensive when I point something out, a selfish moment or dismissive action? Bad sign. That's the old him.

2. Does he face uncomfortable conflicts with his family and me head on (gently, of course) or does he avoid, rug sweep, and minimize?

Three years ago, he got defensive and avoided conflict 97% of the time. That's why we were getting a D. These days he gets defensive about 40% of the time, but he recovers and apologizes quickly. Not perfect but so, so different from who he was. He is still avoiding conflict about 60% of the time, which is not good enough. But he is sharing the struggle and we are openly talking about it (typically related to his family's disrespect). His issues and vulnerabilities are out there now; he's not lying and gaslighting me to avoid seeing these issues in his life. We are handling these struggles as a team, and it is bringing us both mutual respect and a true partnership. We still have some tough days, but I share my struggles with him, as well. And on our best days, I feel we have one of the strongest, most authentic partnerships I have seen irl.

Do what is good for you" is the same as saying "Do what you think will control the outcome" imo, and we all know from SI that there is no way to control the outcome.

Im sorry, cheatstroke I don’t see how these are synonymous. I think you are assuming I am telling her to R, but I’m actually not. What I’m saying is that each situation is different and one blanket piece of advice doesn’t necessarily work for all.

It’s a risk to R and it’s a risk to D. With R you have to take a leap of faith with the evil you know and with D you take a leap of faith with the evil you don’t. Either one is a risk.

It’s a combination of what the BS wants and what the WS is willing to give. She could want R but her WS is not a good candidate. She could want D even if her WS is a good candidate.

Ultimately she has to be the one to decide whether the work of R will be worth the benefit of whether D is the better choice with where she is at in her life. Only she will truly know if her WS is exhibiting behavior worthy to R with her.

My husband was told to cut his losses and run as fast as he could from me. He chose not to listen and took a chance. We have children, but no one would have blamed him for leaving. We both worked very hard and now have a pretty amazing marriage, despite my A. I’m glad he did and now after all we have been through we are demonstrating to our children what a healthy relationship looks like.

Again, not advocating for R or controlling any outcome. Just letting the OP know that D doesn’t have to be the only option if the both want to put in the work to save the M. Nobody has a crystal ball to see into the future, but people know what they want in their heart and they know what their gut tells them.

Had my WH been a great candidate for R (and for a while there he seemed like one), I very much doubt that I would have been as a BS.

T/j Lol DevastedDee, reverse the genders and this is true for me too. If she wanted to reconcile, I would have done everything to make us both miserable in the marriage. Even on Dday, the dominant thought in my mind was How fuckin dare you!!

Iris, I think your current plan of observing for sincere change in his disordered thinking is the right one. But one thing you should consider is if you are capable of not holding this resentment beyond a reasonable time. I know I'm just not built like that. This doesn't get discussed on this site as much. Now that you know that he's capable of this, do you think you'll feel safe with him in the future? Someone who at best does not have appropriate boundaries and at worst, someone who's always on the prowl if you're not 'on your best behavior'. Staying with my ex would have made me an angry and bitter person.

I get that the WS has done it once so they might do it again, and if we have kids in the future there will be other entanglements that make divorce more difficult than it is before kids. I get the more superficial reasons, but do you really think that the BS will be happier divorcing? If so, why?

It’s not primarily the entanglements.

It’s that infidelity hurts children - badly.

The very first thing that went through my mind upon finding out about my XWW’s adultery is the incredible pain that my children are going to be subjected to for no other reason than my XWW’s incredibly selfish addictions.

The pain you feel from the betrayal is 1000 worse when children are involved.

They feel all the fear, uncertainty, despair, anguish, and anger that we feel - even if It is kept a secret from them because they sense the tension.

Kids are world-centric about things so they will tend to feel like it’s their fault when their family is destroyed due to infidelity.

To destroy a family due to one’s inconceivable selfishness and subject children to it all is the worst thing a person can do in life - they are irredeemable pieces of shit.

I don’t care what the excuse is nor about their “remorse” - they knew they were causing lifelong damage to children when they were doing it and they simply did not care.

If my then WW and I did not have kids then I would have divorced her far more quickly than I did.

I sure as hell would not have given her the chance to do it to me again - much less to any of my children.

Yes, it’s possible that a new spouse could do it but I would have the benefit of knowing all the big red flags that I didn’t notice before with my XWW.

Your spouse betrays you this way and you don’t have children together?

Run.

Please go to the Divorce/Separated section and read SleeplessinSouth’s post.

She was dating and her BF cheated. She left him. Eventually they got back together. They married. Had kids. They are now divorcing due to his long term affair with the OW.

But more importantly it’s not the cheating that was the issue. It’s the character traits she overlooked for too long that were red flags 🚩 all along. His cheating was just one example.

And his choice to cheat was just one of many selfish choices. He has no relationship with his kids (apparently never did). Because he chose the Affair at the expense of his children and family.

So if you take a step back - and look at the big picture - we (the BS) tell people who are NOT married and cheated on to run because we have the wisdom of experience to see how the future may be. And how often we are right unfortunately.

FWIW on paper my H was not reconciliation worthy. Two Affairs and ILYBNILWY and wanted a D during the last Affair. He has changed and did it on his own. The changes he made are 6 years in effect. I am one of the lucky ones. But just know HE decided to change. HE made the commitment to address things. Like I said I am one of the lucky ones.

I say RUN and I don’t say it empathetically because it’s that serious. Like telling a child to not touch the hot burner.

We never had children and I have stayed with my WH.

I wish I would’ve divorced, though. It’s been over 5 years.

Things are ok now but I think I would’ve been better off if I just walked away from it all.

I'm with sewerdak. I just say, Run, because it's urgent. No time for niceties until the hand is away from the fire.

Things are ok now but I think I would’ve been better off if I just walked away from it all.

You can still walk away.

Rusty

But one thing you should consider is if you are capable of not holding this resentment beyond a reasonable time. I know I'm just not built like that.

This is a valid concern. I guess this is part of the work that the BS must do in order to be in a marriage worth having. I'll have the next few months to see if I can do it.

keptmyword

The pain you feel from the betrayal is 1000 worse when children are involved.

They feel all the fear, uncertainty, despair, anguish, and anger that we feel - even if It is kept a secret from them because they sense the tension

I know this is not how you wanted me to read this, but if the pain is so much bigger with children, and they suffer so much from the infidelity, how is it more understandable to R with children than without? I mean, the cheater has already proved that they can and will cheat regardless of their children, so when you stay with them you risk hurting yourself AND your children for a second time. Just another way of looking at things.

The1stwife

Please go to the Divorce/Separated section and read SleeplessinSouth’s post.

Will do.

Sewardak

So I'm undeserving of empathy because I don't have children and it's just so easy for me to throw my husband away like a broken toy? And I suppose if I stay with him, have children, and he is unfaithful again I am to blame for mine and my children's misery and deserve it all for believing that someone deserved a second chance.

I am a little angry and this may come off harsh but if you think that infidelity is the absolute worst thing that can happen to you and your children, let me tell you I wish my dad had cheated, maybe then he would have run off somewhere and us kids might have actually had a life before he finally died. Will probably regret these words but damn I'm upset.

iris,

If you start a new thread in the future, I recommend doing what some people do: state what you're looking for.

You asked a question in this one and you got answers.

In the next thread, you might want to say something like, 'I'd like some help working this out. I've considered kicking him out, but for now I'm leaning toward R. Please do not tell me to run.'

That will stop most of the 'run' responses, unless you describe a sitch in which you're hurting yourself - but you don't seem to be in that sort of sitch.

Iris I'll chime in on your question.

When you have kids it's NO longer about you and your spouse. Kids are not a birth right or possessions you own. They're a blessing from God and when (and if) you happen to have this gift placed in your life you now become a steward for them and to protect them to the best of your ability.

That means you need to look at life, not as playing checkers, but rather as playing chess. What does that mean? It means you aren't moved/driven by what's right in front of you or by emotions. You realize that each choice in life that you make has consequences. What is the long term ramification if I do X as to compared if I do Y?

When it's just you and your spouse your choices just affect the two of you. Bring kids into the situation and it now becomes about them.

As abandonedGuy mentioned, would you bring your kid around a dog who's bitten someone? Hell no!!

Would you let your kids in the car with a driver who's intoxicated? Hell no!!

Would you let your kids play with a gun? Hell no!!

I could go on and on with examples but the point of the matter is you do NOT play Russian Roulette with kids no matter how small the percentage is that something may go wrong.

ONCE YOU KNOW THE NATURE OF SOMETHING DO NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN IT ACTS IN IT'S NATURE.

So a spouse cheats. There's no kids in the situation. People suggest that if you don't have kids it might behoove you to cut bait and D.

You can say, "well if I D the next person in my life could cheat on me as well". Yes, but that's a probability, however in this case it's not a probability but rather a FACT that your spouse has cheated. Also, once someone has basically said FUCK YOU to your Vows and crossed the line and lied to you trust me it's easier to do it again.

So yes life is a gamble and there's no guarantee to safeguard choices we make in life, but someone who has a child/children doesn't have the luxury to play make believe. They have to deal with reality and do whatever they can to protect their kid(s).

Cheating is basically MURDERING a marriage!!

If there's no kids in the equation you better think LONG and HARD about making a decision to bring innocent children into this crime scene.

Nobody is telling you what to do.

You have free volition to do whatever you want.

That said the reason you don't understand why people would suggest to D a cheating spouse if there's no kid(s) in the equation is because you don't have any children. You won't understand this logic until you have kids of your own.

Choose wisely.

Nobody is telling you what to do.

Uummm, not to argue the point, but at least one member on this thread explicitly wrote:

Run.

IDK, that reads to me as someone telling iris what to do.

Sister, I didn't tell her to "run" nor do I give a damn what anyone else has told her. I shared my thoughts on the matter. As I said she has free volition to do whatever she wants to do as it's her life.

Once you know the nature of something don't be surprised when it acts accordingly. Yep and that's why I'm not surprised that you're here to argue as that's what YOU do.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

Just my thoughts on the situation, Iris. I could be every bit as condescending and ignorant towards BS with children as some are towards childless BS.

I could tell them how irresponsible they are being by not removing their children from a toxic enviroment. I could tell them how cowardly they are behaving by using their children as an excuse to reconcile. It’s very easy to turn every single one of their “virtuous” arguments right back on them and paint them as cowardly. Like those who are afraid of the consequences of divorce, but instead of admitting their fear they preach their righteousness in staying for their kids. Or those who claim there is no doubt in their mind that they be divorced if they didn’t have kids. Such saintly behaviour! But talk is cheap, and that’s all they’re offering. Truth is, who knows what they would have done, but I doubt it’s what they say they think they’d do.

Now, I don’t believe the shit I wrote above. I know folks are willing to attempt to reconcile for all kinds of reasons, in all kinds of situations. The situation you find yourself in is one I can relate to. I had hoped to reconcile with my ex and we didn’t have children. I’ve had to grow a thick skin when reading threads advising folks without children to divorce. Because it won’t change. It’s projection, pure and simple, but even worse, it’s usually nothing more than hypothetical. Those with children advising the childless to leave based on that reason alone don’t know what it’s like, because they don’t have children. See even that can be flipped on them. There is no point in arguing with them. Nor can you stop their advice. All you can do is take what you need and leave the rest.

And I suppose if I stay with him, have children, and he is unfaithful again I am to blame for mine and my children's misery and deserve it all for believing that someone deserved a second chance.

If he's not remorseful when you make the decision to stay, then yes, there probably is some truth to this statement.

He has to be remorseful before you can decide to stay with him.

So, what is being remorseful?

Answer: IMO, understanding how, where, and why he has destroyed you

This will be different for each BS. In my world, how, where and why I have been destroyed is trust.

How was trust destroyed? It's been reduced to ZERO. NONE.

Where was trust destroyed? All of what comes out of my WS' mouth and most of their actions are considered bullshit - things said and done purely in their own self interest.

Why was trust destroyed? WS actually went all the way and had sex with someone else. Only someone with no integrity could do that.

Yes, WS had issues with FOO, issues with self-esteem, issues with self-talk, issues with <insert your own "black dog" list here>, etc., etc. That doesn't change the how, where, and why.

So, what to do. In my case, polygraph. WS schedules and pays for them, ad infinitum.

Why polygraph? It's the only way to get some semblance of the truth. You think you got all of WS' passwords, text conversations, phone conversations, and in-person conversations?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THINK AGAIN!!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

ALL of those things can be EASILY, EASILY gotten around and lied about. And, USED FOR FURTHER DECEPTION.

Polygraphs aren't perfect, but at least they're not as easy to get around and use for further deception as those other things.

Wow cheatstroke, that is just straight up victim blaming.

Anyway both myself and many posters are confusing a general question with a request for advice for my specific situation.

It really boggles my mind that people believe it is somehow so much more understandable to R when you have kids than when you don't. I've carefully read everything you've said, and there are some good points but I still believe it's basically the same children or or no children.

Iris - I’m not going to say somethjng like “honey, you know, it might be in your best interest to not touch that hot burner. I mean, you do you, but ultimately, if you could use some caution when you get close to that burner, if might work out better for you.”

Ive been here a while iris. I’m 52. I’ve been married over 30 years. This is a site ppl come to for advice. You don’t get to decide what or how they say it.

[This message edited by sewardak at 2:19 PM, June 9th (Sunday)]

the cheater has already proved that they can and will cheat regardless of their children, so when you stay with them you risk hurting yourself AND your children for a second time.

This is a valid statement. The reason I say to think more about R if there are children is because children deserve an intact family. That is the ideal. Of course, the parents have to be able to work things out so that it is healthy for the children. D may be better for the children depending on the particulars. But, if there is any way the parents can work things out and provide a healthy, intact family for their children, that should be their goal.

Most of the biggest debated problems in life are complicated and nuanced. Lots and lots of shades of grey. You aren’t likely to see a 10 page vigorous debate about wether puppies are cute or not because that’s a pretty simple fucking question. Puppies are objectively cute. Not a lot to discuss or argue about. Now, if one were to ask wether or not they should adopt a puppy or not? Now that gets complicated. It would involve discussions of where you live, how much time to have to commit to the puppy, if you have the finances to deal with it etc, etc, etc.

But people, as a general rule, fucking hate nuance and shades of grey cause it forces them to think hard about shit and commit to choices they might not particularly like to have to make with consequences they would rather not have to contemplate. So a lot of the time people will simply just try to boil shit down to nice easy one sentence talking points. Like:

People never change. Or

Once a cheater always a cheater. Or

If you don’t have kids, cut your losses and run.

Those are nice, concise, easy ideas to get your head around and they are quick, direct, and easily digested talking points to get across.

But, like so many here have said: each situation is different. And there is clearly no way that those situations, with all of their complexities and subtle variations, could every possibly be fully conveyed in a single post here on SI. Or in a hundred or a thousand posts for that matter.

Which is why people say take what you need and leave the rest. Part of the beauty of SI is that there are so many members, with so many different experiences and perspectives. One of them is bound to have the advice that fits for you. And your very own gut will most likely let you know when you read that advice. Trust your gut when it tells you.

That’s why I love reading everyone’s opinion here. Even the people who I generally disagree with. As ong as they aren’t being complete fucking Assholes I, for one, am happy to have them putting in their two cents. Even if I disagree with them.

As to the question at hand, that’s just an example of when all those grey areas come in. It’s my opinion that no one should ever make the decision of wether to R or D on one single factor alone. Or even on 5 or 6 factors. Like I said, it’s complicated and nuanced and a decision like that deserves the kind of thoughtful and careful consideration it requires.

I know that, for me at least, Reconciliation was a long, painful, difficult, daunting decision. It wasn’t a one and done kind of decision either. I changed my mind and went back and forth countless times the first couple of years. Each time I reconsidered that decision something would always tip me back into continuing to try. But that something was always changing. Sometimes I stayed because I still loved my wife. Sometimes I stayed because I had made a commitment and I wanted to try and see that commitment thru. Sometimes I stayed, I think, simply from inertia. Other times, I am quite certain, I stayed just to fucking spite her. A lot of times I stayed because I had children to think of and I wanted them to have a family that was whole and healed. There were other factors as well, countless different factors, more than I could possibly hope to remember or rewrite down right now. But you get the idea.

It’s likely that no single one of those factors alone would have been enough to carry my through all of those periods when I wanted to just call it quits. It took all of them, at different points and in various combinations to carry me through the toughest times. Does that mean that, had I not had children, I would not have reconciled? Not necessarily, there is no way to know for sure. I know that my kids were a big factor in my decision to Reconcile, but I would never have stayed for that reason alone. I think, that if I had told myself that I was staying solely for the kids alone, that would have possibly resulted in my remaining in a victim mentality and eventually resulted in me resenting the shit out of my wife. No, it took at least most, of not all of those many variables to carry us all the long way through the process of Reconciliation.

So the real question isn’t wether or not people without children should Reconcile. It’s wether the people in question still have enough reasons to reconcile without the added factor of children to think of. And that’s gonna vary quite a bit from situation to situation. End of the day the only person who can decide that for you is you.

HT