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When considering a Revenge Affair, remember this one piece of free advice: Never make permanent decisions based on temporary feelings.

Hikingout - I don't want to hijack this from Buzzy anymore. I will simply say, the post I was talking about is different than the one you are talking about. The one I am talking about mentioned how "integrity/moral high ground" is lonely and separates the BS from the WS. Some WS were talking about how they wished the BS would level things so they could work on the marriage together without feeling they can't approach certain topics pre-A. The thread then turned and the WS mentioned they wouldn't want the BS to feel the shame and guilt though.

Is anything I stated incorrect? FYI - The BS also feels the moral high ground makes them feel stupid at times because they feel it is a trick to stay "moral". That is them trying to understand the WS though.

Damaged people trying to fix a messed up situation.

So lets move on.

I am interested in Buzzy's responses.

Lets talk about some of the WS who currently have lost a lot of faith in R. Is pushing the BS to RA a hail mary pass?

I don't think Westway cares if I bring him up because he is hard on the D path. If he found a side girl he loved, would he just play house if his WW pushed for a pretend marriage?(Don't answer Westway, just using your case as an example)

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 5:11 PM, November 5th (Tuesday)]

I posted in your other thread but feel very strongly about this matter so I'm going to repeat it here!

The fact you hold yourself to a much lower standard than your wife is telling. You demand NC from her but you continue to have contact with your AP (no matter how limited) because it would impact on your social life to go NC. Well that's what you get for sh*****g where you eat!

Now my wifes AP knew she was married and should not have considered having an affair with my wife he had the obligation of common decency.

OP, these are your own words about your WW's AP didn't your AP have the same obligation?

I think Revenge Affairs can be really effective under certain circumstances. I think it's pretty hypocritical for Waywards to say that RA's are as terrible as the first affair. You can draw a straight line from the first affair to an RA. I just think they don't want to feel the pain of being cheated on even though they instigated the whole mess.

If you WS doesn't want to reconcile after an RA, not only are they a cheater, but a hypocrite too. For them to beg for reconciliation, but divorce when it happens to them, I think is silly. If they do want to reconcile, they'll understand a little more about what the BS went through, and maybe through that understanding the two of them can start to heal.

We know the timeline of recovery is 2-5 years. A lot of that consists of hurt and anger. Even after 5 years you might still be feel like a chump. I know people will say an eye for an eye or two wrongs don't make it right, but if one option is to feel depressed for years, or to regain some semblance of worth and even things out, I would take the latter.

I feel like making things more even can help more than it hurts for certain couples.

If my wife had a RA, I'd be hurt, but I would understand. I would be able to better put myself in her shoes and her in mine. Hopefully from there we could heal more effectively.

Note: I don't condone having an RA with an unsuspecting AP. I think they should know the situation before anything goes down.

[This message edited by zooom at 10:17 PM, November 5th (Tuesday)]

I am also fine with divorce with option to date, for lack of a better term. Where BS tells WS, you might have a chance to win me back, but I'm still divorcing you, severing all of the financial stuff, and will CONSIDER you as a potential future partner, along with others, after I am divorced.

That still rankles some of the R advocates here who think the BS has to have 100% commitment to any direction.

As far as straight RAs go, it depends on the couple. I wouldn't recommend it as a general tactic, but depending on the dynamic of the couple it would be very effective in certain circumstances. Maybe moreso in a couple where both have had plenty of prior sexual experience. I am divorced, and there were plenty of directions advised to me that I did not take due to circumstance.

>I am also fine with divorce with option to date, for lack of a better term. Where BS tells WS, you might have a chance to win me back, but I'm still divorcing you, severing all of the financial stuff, and will CONSIDER you as a potential future partner, along with others, after I am divorced.

I believe in this as an option too. Especially if the BS thinks the WS is only with them for financial/comfort reasons. If they're still as repentant after the divorce, it makes reconciliation much easier. And the BS knows that they are no longer trapped. I think that helps with letting go of the outcome for both spouses. Reconciliation from that point forwards is because they both want it.

I have to say, this wasn't really a RA but a one-sided open marriage.

Why?

Because your wife knew what you were doing and by the definition of an affair, this wasn't it.

My attitude is that a revenge or as i prefer to call it a "rebalancing" affair.

My opinion is that a BH should do WHATEVER he needs to do to recover. It can mean divorcing the WW and remarrying, or a temporary separation where he can date other women, or a ONS, or an RA, or an open marriage. Every BH feels emasculated after their wife cheats, and every BH frames the situation differently. The worst that a BH can do is nothing, and languish, mired in helplessness for the sake of finances, kids, religion, etc. That's a terrible way to live.

OP - at the end of the day, you did what you felt you needed to do to restore balance in your marriage on your terms. If your WW does not like it, she is free to leave. You have to obviously respect her choice as well, just like she would have to accept your choice to leave had you wished to, after her A.

On a side note, its interesting to observe the tone of the now "reformed/remorseful" WWs on the Wayward forum lecturing the OP indignantly from their high horse. Suddenly, they are the epitome of good character, personal integrity and moral uprightness, now that they've "discovered their why's". Living saints they are!

I did notice the weighing in of some WSs here, and I held my tongue on commenting about their positions. I know that I am still angry. I also know that I am very eloquent in expressing myself. I know how to put nuance and emotion into my words in such a way as to elicit specific desired emotions.

I'm a fuckin' writer, it's what I do.

Nevertheless.

While I do not think that WSs, when "reformed," are saints by any means of the word, I do think that they do have input, especially as humans, which most of them presumably are, that are removed from a situation.

Objectively speaking, shit behavior is shit behavior. Requiring someone in a marriage to act a certain way or accept certain things or give up other things for doing something atrocious like having an affair, and then doing that exact same thing as -further- punishment and refusing to adhere to your own rules is, frankly, shit behavior.

We act shitty when we're hurting, especially when we hurt from something as immeasurably fucked up as infidelity. Some of the things I have considered doing to lash out and "punish" my STBXW are pretty damn cruel. I recognized the shittiness of my urges and I refrained.

Other times, in the heat of a fight, I have used my indelible skills as a speaker and writer to absolutely eviscerate her. I hit every single psychological trigger I knew, from 17 years of marriage, that she had. I played those buttons like electric drums. I sawed on those strings like I was beating a symphony out of a violin. The terrible music that came from those actions could have peeled paint off the walls.

I don't feel good about those times. They were beneath where I should have been, and they lowered me. Were they as bad as cheating on an otherwise faithful partner? Fuck no, they weren't. They were less than a shadow of it.

But that's irrelevant. If someone shoots you with a .45 and later on, not in the heat of the moment, you find them and you shoot them with a .22, you still shot someone. You still broke the law. It wasn't self defense anymore, it was retribution. You had time to think about it, plan it, reconsider your actions, and then do it anyways.

I'm a little more understanding of RAs on/right next to DDay. It's a knee-jerk reaction. Part of me wishes I had done so both times. Part of me wishes that I had been able to take advantage of that window of "clean conscience" and break out, break through, and get what could have been gotten.

But I didn't. In my case, well, the relationship is over. I'm ostensibly single now, in everything but legality, and I can do whatever I want with whoever I want, just like she can. I'm still angry. I'm still raw. I'm still furious and vengeful.

But what defines me now is how I act, as a person, moving forward. I am not my ex's husband, boyfriend, fuckbuddy, or booty call. Neither am I her father, teacher, pastor, or counselor. It's not my job, my right, nor my place to punish her, regardless of what I said earlier about being available as an active agent of Karma.

One must weight out their situation and see what one is comfortable with. What one can live with. What one's morals and ethics can support. In my case, my morals an ethics do not support lowering myself to the level of my ex and engaging in genital retribution. My code does not support me verbally lashing out or applying to her rules that I refuse to adhere to.

I banned her partners from the house, therefore I do not bring partners to the house. I put a stop to her spending family funds on her business, so I do not spend family funds on my business. I require an accounting of everything that is spent, so I provide an accounting of everything that I spend. I refused family funding being spent on her relationship with her fuckboy and walrus, so I do not spend family funds on pursuing a new relationship.

Quid pro quo. Tit for tat. Hold yourself at LEAST to the standards you hold others to, if not higher.

On a side note, its interesting to observe the tone of the now "reformed/remorseful" WWs on the Wayward forum lecturing the OP indignantly from their high horse. Suddenly, they are the epitome of good character, personal integrity and moral uprightness, now that they've "discovered their why's". Living saints they are!

I'm not sure why you think we would be a better example of reform/remorse if we said, "Sure, we all agree there are reasons why it's ok to cheat on your spouse and to stay in contact with the AP afterwards. After all, you've been hurt and are therefore not accountable for what you do with your genitals. Also, they know now that you fucked someone else and haven't ruled out doing it again, so at least it's all above board. If they don't like it, they can leave, so that takes you off the hook." If that's the standard for remorse, then I can hang up my hat and stop challenging new WS in Wayward, because pretty much all of them arrive with explanations of how their cheating was caused or mitigated by their spouse's behavior.

Can I empathize with the grief and rage that underly an RA? Absolutely. Can I condone going ahead with it? Not if I really believe what I say every day, which is that the responsibility for cheating rests 100% on the cheater. Having compassion for someone who commits an offense is very different from arguing that it's not an offense.

On a side note, its interesting to observe the tone of the now "reformed/remorseful" WWs on the Wayward forum lecturing the OP indignantly from their high horse. Suddenly, they are the epitome of good character, personal integrity and moral uprightness, now that they've "discovered their why's". Living saints they are!

So are they not allowed input? Redemption? If their current state of mind is much clearer than a hurt BS, then just go with the flow, because more people here can commiserate?

Being that we are giving our opinions here, I'll chime in with mine---the advice to a BS to 'do what they gotta do' to even the scales? Absolute fucking horseshit. I'm talking about legally married couples here. If you were in an unwed, non contractually-bound relationship, you are free to walk away. If you have children together, then there are caretaking and financial obligations, but otherwise, you can leave that day.

Not so if you are legally married. I agree fully that the WS broke the marriage vows, and if you want to divorce, more power to you. But you have legal obligations that now must be legally severed, and until you do so, you are married in the eyes of the law. Whether it is divorce, or legal separation, then do this before any other relationship. Is it unfair that you got decimated by infidelity and have to play by the rules to get out of the marriage? Yup. But they are still responsibilities that YOU signed up for. I'm sorry that your spouse turned into a POS, but you don't get to set ANY rules that you want.

It does surprise me that a RA can be viewed as a healthy coping mechanism. I'm going on an assumption that this site is to survive infidelity, but by healthy means. What if escort services(legal ones) used in excess was the method of coping through infidelity? Legal....yes. Healthy?

YOU entered a monogamous relationship with expectations of the same from your partner. They failed/deceived you. Those scales will never be evened, and that is something that will eventually have to be accepted.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 4:52 AM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

-the advice to a BS to 'do what they gotta do' to even the scales? Absolute fucking horseshit.

agreed.

and the BH stuff - I know you only have one perspective, redbaron but you're saying BH have no choice but to act out. As if.. and as if BW don't have the same mountains to climb as well.

...lecturing the OP indignantly from their high horse.

There’s the old aviation saying, “good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from exercising bad judgement.”

Best to learn from someone else’s bad judgement.

When my husband had his thing we were young and I was financially dependent on him with small children. I could not have managed without him. I rug swept and asked him a few years later if he had cheated. I blindsided him and so he answered without thinking. We didn’t talk about it because we had moved on.

I had two semi serious boyfriends before him. When I met him he was the one. He has always been the one.. The difference is this was never in my face. I never had him treat me badly and I never felt some of the agony some of you feel. I doubt I could have cheated anyway. I would have been so busy crying and throwing up that cheating would have been the furthest thing from my mind.

Still, I support Buzzy. The more I read on this forum the more I realize what a wonderful support system it is but it is also made up of such a variety of personalities and stories that what works for one will not work for another.

Can I empathize with the grief and rage that underly an RA? Absolutely. Can I condone going ahead with it? Not if I really believe what I say every day, which is that the responsibility for cheating rests 100% on the cheater.

1,000% agree with everything BraveSirRobin said.

I am one of those in the Wayward forum redbaron007 was referring to. I do not believe that just because I had an A that it’s hypocritical of me to say it’s wrong for someone else to do it. Quite the opposite. I believe it’s called growth and accountability. And that’s why I will always take the side that it’s never okay to cheat. Because I did it and it was horribly and terribly wrong. And that’s my ownership and accountability for my actions. My growth and healing and my BH’s healing come from, in part, that ownership and accountability and I will never let anyone take that away from me. Once I say that cheating is okay in certain circumstances, then I’m saying what I did wasn’t so bad. It’s only that the circumstances didn’t justify it. No way. Absolutely not. My experience and the repercussions of what I did and everything I put my BH and family through has taught me that it is never okay. And I do not care if I’m called a hypocrite or that I’m on a high horse. I will never back down from that point of view.

I see my wife beat me to it!

This might be the first time we posted on the same thread.

Anyway, I agree with a lot of what she said.

From my perspective, as a BH, I will say that there were, and continue to be, a number of things I looked for in determining whether R was a viable option and as I evaluate how R is going. It’s not all about how we interact. It’s about her mindset and the evolution of her thinking and feelings that is important too. Something in her allowed her to give herself permission to have an A. Is that still there?

From my view, if she believed anything different from what she stated I’d have major concerns. It seems odd to me as a BH for me to be okay with my WW being cool with me having an A of my own. I understand the pain obviously, and the feelings / need for justice and even the desire to punish. But those are feelings and emotions which I can relate to. It’s the logic behind that line of thinking that just doesn’t compute to me.

Hikingout - I don't want to hijack this from Buzzy anymore. I will simply say, the post I was talking about is different than the one you are talking about. The one I am talking about mentioned how "integrity/moral high ground" is lonely and separates the BS from the WS. Some WS were talking about how they wished the BS would level things so they could work on the marriage together without feeling they can't approach certain topics pre-A. The thread then turned and the WS mentioned they wouldn't want the BS to feel the shame and guilt though.

That was MY post that I started, and we are talking about the exact same one. Your interpretation of what I was saying is not what I intended with that post. I admit the initial start of the thread was unclear, but if you read through it again, you really misunderstand the point of the post. Noone was suggesting that they wanted a revenge affair. That post was me struggling with the damage that I caused. But, I am fine to stop discussing it. Just know it was my post and I am clear that what you got from it wasn't what I was trying to convey. It was about remorse and living with what I did.

I think Revenge Affairs can be really effective under certain circumstances. I think it's pretty hypocritical for Waywards to say that RA's are as terrible as the first affair. You can draw a straight line from the first affair to an RA. I just think they don't want to feel the pain of being cheated on even though they instigated the whole mess.

I never said that they are as terrible, in fact I have stated multiple times that they are not at all the same, that my cheating happened in a bubble of a seemingly happy marriage. My husband was in shock and traumatized. I don't think the damage is as strong. It might really hurt wayward, but I don't think it would be as shocking or as traumatizing.

It doesn't have anything to do with not wanting my husband to have an affair for my sake. It's not for Buzzy's WS's sake that we are trying to help him. He has stated he wants his marriage. All we are trying to do is to make his amends for his part of his affair. I do not find that hypocritical, I find that to be in the best interest of his marriage. If he doesn't want the marriage, then most any of my advice doesn't even apply.

I also think it's problematic that you are a Wayward Husband who I have never even heard of before coming in and condemning what any other wayward would have to say against infidelity.

If you WS doesn't want to reconcile after an RA, not only are they a cheater, but a hypocrite too. For them to beg for reconciliation, but divorce when it happens to them, I think is silly. If they do want to reconcile, they'll understand a little more about what the BS went through, and maybe through that understanding the two of them can start to heal.

I would offer R, I am almost positive. But, I would have the condition of NC with the AP. And I don't think that's hypocritical at all. I think it's hypocritical for that not to be the case.

On a side note, its interesting to observe the tone of the now "reformed/remorseful" WWs on the Wayward forum lecturing the OP indignantly from their high horse. Suddenly, they are the epitome of good character, personal integrity and moral uprightness, now that they've "discovered their why's". Living saints they are!

That's ridiculous. Noone is coming after Buzzy on a high horse. I have said countless times that I understand why Buzzy did what he did, and can empathize with his reasoning. Anything after that was to help Buzzy get some perspective on moving forward in his marriage which he has publically stated in the WS forum that is what he wants. He is taking his wife away for the weekend so they can begin that. I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to take some accountability, and to go NC with his AP. Maybe what you are not understanding is when someone comes to the Wayward forum what we are telling them is basically to learn from our bad decisions and the issues that we had. This forum is about getting out of infidelity not supporting it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:29 AM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

Here's a question: if it's wrong for the WS to cheat, how is it then ok for the BS to cheat?