SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Biological fact: There is no biological reason for why we don’t just squat wherever we are and take a dump.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) we aren’t controlled by biology beyond some basic aspects. We also have troubling factors like morals and ethics and self-control. It’s generally a lack in one or more of those three that lead to infidelity, rather than butt or cup-size or some uncontrollable biological urge or need.

The AP is usually selected out of availability – generally due to a matching lack in morals, ethics or self-control – rather than they meet some biologically ingrained requirements.

In my early days, I was like many other BS's with a desire - no, a demand for fairness. An insatiable intolerance for the cruel unfairness. However, like so many other BS's, after the realization sets in, the fairness pain resolves to acceptance that there can never be anything close to fair that comes from what a WS may do. There is never a "fair" compensation. Even the so called revenge A has no element of fairness, only a feeble attempt at it.

Nothing one can do can make manipulation and betrayal fair. But, there is a vast chasm between what cannot be done to make things fair and what can be done to show contrition and remorse. I think, sometimes, this is the primary BS struggle. It so often seems to show up in SI that the BS is not asking for the impossible, they are asking for demonstrations of contrition, remorse, deference, sacrifice, etc. All seemingly reasonable, given the trauma and dishonesty from the WS.

The limited stories we see here on SI where a WS is willing, sometimes eager, to be contrite, demonstrate authentic remorse, sacrifice for the sake of R, it is those examples where R success seems more likely and posts of ongoing BS pain is less prevalent. And it has little to do with fairness, when a WS behaves or responds to the gift of R in this way.

Of course, everyone makes their own decisions about what to do about WS responses, and those choices are driven by many complexities. A BS must ultimately find some peace within the decisions they make, accepting that very little in life is "fair" and sometimes the cards are such that you make the best of the choices you make.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) we aren’t controlled by biology beyond some basic aspects. We also have troubling factors like morals and ethics and self-control. It’s generally a lack in one or more of those three that lead to infidelity, rather than butt or cup-size or some uncontrollable biological urge or need.

The AP is usually selected out of availability – generally due to a matching lack in morals, ethics or self-control – rather than they meet some biologically ingrained requirements.

Sorry, I really just posted this because it bears repeating. 100 percent facts.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) we aren’t controlled by biology beyond some basic aspects. We also have troubling factors like morals and ethics and self-control. It’s generally a lack in one or more of those three that lead to infidelity, rather than butt or cup-size or some uncontrollable biological urge or need.

The AP is usually selected out of availability – generally due to a matching lack in morals, ethics or self-control – rather than they meet some biologically ingrained requirements.

THIS! Standing. Slow. Clap.

As always excellent post by Bigger

And Hiking you are completely correct about gender nuetral valuation and devaluations . My thoughts exactly

I don't relate at all to some of these views on marriage.

- Nobody should be coerced into sex.

-There should be no outside imposed obligation for sex.

It is a fact, as everyone on SI is painfully aware, that humans are sexual animals. Sexuality is innate to our being. Yes, some people are asexual, just as some people are atypical in other ways. The typical person is a sexual being.

A monogamous marriage is a commitment to be exclusive. Among other exclusivities, you have CHOSEN one person to be sexually exclusive and they have CHOSEN you in the same way. Nobody forced sexual exclusivity on you. You chose this exclusivity and you have likely asked the same from your husband/wife. Now that you are sexually exclusive, that means you now have one stop for human sexual interaction, just as they have one stop. You're exclusive: there are no sexual choices anymore.

Does that chosen sexual exclusivity create any sort of commitments to care about your partners sexual satisfaction and needs? I'd say it does create this commitment - a mutual bargain/agreement. Now, you can break this agreement. Either by failing to be exclusive or by withholding sex from your partners only sexual choice (or doing both of these actions). Both of these choices are willfully harming your partner and betraying the agreement to exclusivity. By saying you would be exclusive, you also said you'd try to be a sexual partner for them. If you can't, or won't, then your choice to betray the commitment needs to be up front and honest. Not a sneaky ideological play about women's self ownership - a strawman argument.

Nobody is saying you don't own your body. But to say that a willfully chosen commitment is some sort of on-going state of servitude and sexual slavery is nonsense. Don't give a sh*t about your partner's sexual needs, that is a choice you can make. But to then claim that betrayal of the marriage is some sort of celebration of women's emancipation is utter baloney.

Committing to marriage is committing to have sex with your

spouse.

Committing to marriage is committing to have sex with your

spouse.

I do not disagree, but I will add:

-it's not agreeing to do it on demand, a certain amount of times a week, certain sexual acts, etc.

-it's not agreeing there won't be periods in life where there are issues -mentally, physically, or otherwise in which there might be a hiatus.

If sex is a contract of marriage so are many other things. We are not going to always be able to meet each others needs all the time, whatever need you want to look at. That's why the discussion and importance of commitment is there.

Sometimes there are issues that have to be resolved for the sex to continue.

I think that's the thing that people get confused about in these discussions and then everyone starts talking over and around each other. It sounds on one side like it's a requirement rather than a human interaction, and occasionally on the other side it sounds like something we are burdening our WW's to do. I think it's somewhere in between all that.

Sex is a need, yes. I think it's the glue, yes. But, it's not the end all be all of the marriage. I could be paralyzed tomorrow, or H could. Would we not have a marriage after that? I would contend that we could and probably would.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:07 PM, February 23rd (Tuesday)]

Telling your spouse that they have to meet a desired weight goal for you to be happy is belittling them and is flat out cruel.

Also sex has to be inspired it can NOT be coerced or demanded

Apples to oranges:

Demanding your spouse to lose weight to make your self happy

wrong.

A BH wanting a WW to lose the weight that she lost for him

that his WW freely lost for her OM is the BH asking his WW

to do for him what she did for her OM.

Expecting a spouse to have sex with you because they agreed

to having a monogamous relationship with you is not

coercion. Expecting sex does not mean that a wife, WW or

not can never say not to night I have a headache.

One thing I don't read much about is what each partner agreed to, maybe even expected, as part of the marriage contract/vow prior to M. My fWW and I talked about everything imaginable. There could not have been any later saying "I did not know that" or "we never discussed this" or even "I did not know this or that was expected". Of course, as we know by evidence of cheating, not everyone stays consistent with M agreements or promises. It is always possible that any previous agreement could be disregarded, as in infidelity.

But many of these matters of intimacy and role expectations seem essential for pre-M detailed discussion so that both can agree or disagree, as needed, or express challenging perspectives or views. If one or the other has expectations that sex is a part of the M contract, they need to make that clear in whatever detail is relevant to them, and the other can then decide if they are comfortable in a lifetime commitment with those expectations.

Are these serious matters not discussed as a norm with intended spouses? Nothing seems reasonable to be an expectation if it has not been agreed as such prior. It's a lifetime commitment. It seems dangerous to leave such important matters to chance or assumption.

I didn't read the pages of this topic but will say that when I was married the xWH was ALWAYS on me about my appearance. Hair wasn't shaped right, contact lenses look better than glasses, lose weight, etc. It was never enough. I had been working out regularly to keep my weight down, and if it had been about my health maybe I would have tried harder. But he was unhappy with my APPEARANCE. He strayed anyway with a woman 11 years older but in better shape. I wasn't enough no matter how "thin" I tried to be.

Fast forward to today 15 years later. I walk to get in shape for my health, not to please anyone. SO of almost 10 years has loved me since the very beginning, heavy weight and all. He wants me to feel good about myself but has never commented on improving my appearance.

THAT is what real love is. The rest is phony.

I do understand the pain of making an effort for an AP but not the spouse; xWH did many things for his OW's that were not done for me. Such is the life of the betrayed I guess.

Old truck

I think there are alot of nuances that your statement just doesnt cover .

if i were temporarily trying to “ catch a guy “ for ego kibbles and i knew he preferred women who were 50 lbs of solid muscle ontop of my weight ...its conceivable that i could start bench pressing or what have you for a short period of time .

But if i were looking for a forever relationship i would not lift a finger to alter myself in anyway . Because the dude you marry has to accept your body the way it naturally is and with the full knowledge that it will age and soften with time . Thats the same for both genders .

We all know the sub context here is that after a spouse has cheated they dont quite “deserve” the same unconditional love for a while but at some point as i mentioned before you have to either let them go or choose to truly love them again.

As for the binding sex contract . It depends . You cant be in a bad place emotionally with someone, berate their body and then expect them to suddenly feel sexy around you . Just doesnt happen . Sex requires a good connection and also typically an emotional and physical buildup , men or women who dont understand that ARE infact making unreasonable demands on their partner .

Committing to marriage is committing to have sex with your spouse.

Aww. Did you write this into your vows? Sooo romantic, and not creepy at all.

I think there are alot of nuances that your statement just doesnt cover .

if i were temporarily trying to “ catch a guy “ for ego kibbles and i knew he preferred women who were 50 lbs of solid muscle ontop of my weight ...its conceivable that i could start bench pressing or what have you for a short period of time .

But if i were looking for a forever relationship i would not lift a finger to alter myself in anyway . Because the dude you marry has to accept your body the way it naturally is and with the full knowledge that it will age and soften with time . Thats the same for both genders .

We all know the sub context here is that after a spouse has cheated they dont quite “deserve” the same unconditional love for a while but at some point as i mentioned before you have to either let them go or choose to truly love them again.

As for the binding sex contract . It depends . You cant be in a bad place emotionally with someone, berate their body and then expect them to suddenly feel sexy around you . Just doesnt happen . Sex requires a good connection and also typically an emotional and physical buildup , men or women who dont understand that ARE infact making unreasonable demands on their partner .

I do not advocate for a man or woman to change their

appearance just to get a relationship. Be the person that you

want to be.

However this has no connection to a WW that would hit the

gym tone up lose weight for her OM though this WW refuses

to do this for her BH during recovery.

Aww. Did you write this into your vows? Sooo romantic, and not creepy at all.

This statement of a quote you made makes it appear that you

support marriages with dead bedrooms.

Edit to add: I do not attack posters here. I do my best

to disagree without getting personal.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 7:38 PM, February 23rd (Tuesday)]

However this has no connection to a WW that would hit the

gym tone up lose weight for her OM though this WW refuses

to do this for her BH during recovery.

So what do you think the solution should be then?

I still don't understand why you would want any part of who she was during the affair, physically, mentally or emotionally.

Dont you want her authentic, safe self even if it came wrapped in 20 extra pounds?

So what do you think the solution should be then?

I still don't understand why you would want any part of who she was during the affair, physically, mentally or emotionally.

Dont you want her authentic, safe self even if it came wrapped in 20 extra pounds?

Dragnheart, women fail to see or choose to ignore that they

are the gate keeper to who gets to have sex with them.

They ignore that power they have and the worth that a man

perceives he has when a woman allows him access to her body.

A WW refusing to go to the gym get toned and lose weight

for her BH yet freely did so for her OM says she valued her

OM more than her BH. This level of effort for the OM shows

authentically that the WW values her BH less, believes her

BH will not leave her, that he will complain but she will be

able to control her BH and get him to settle for less and

stayed married to her because he will have to much to lose

if her was to divorce her.

While i agree that some woman can be like that i disagree that woman hold any power at all or that a WW in the midst of an affair is being her authentic true self. Men have taken what they want since the beginning of time and still do. Affairs are typically based on good feels that dont last, thus why we refer to them as fantasy and unicorn farts. There's nothing real or authentic about them.

the worth that a man perceives he has when a woman allows him access to her body

This right here is the root of the problem!

Basing ANY self worth on the actions or in action of another person. As long as you base any worth on what she does or doesn't do then you will remain stuck wanting something that will never satisfy you.

A WW refusing to go to the gym get toned and lose weight

for her BH yet freely did so for her OM says she valued her

OM more than her BH. This level of effort for the OM shows

authentically that the WW values her BH less, believes her

BH will not leave her, that he will complain but she will be

able to control her BH and get him to settle for less and

stayed married to her because he will have to much to lose

if her was to divorce her.

I can understand, and not to bring this full circle, you are really just talking about effort.

This scenario was not one I experienced, except I do think I was the stereotypical affair-haver in taking a new interest in clothing (even underclothing), Styling my hair differently, etc. I do think it's very typical that someone having an affair starts doing things a little flashier, men included in that. Men often start back to the gym, dressing younger, wearing cologne, etc while having an affair.

This is about trying to be your best self to woo someone.

In that regard, I do think that it is hard to accept that your spouse was not being their "best self" for you. I do see that we are also our "worst self" at that time because we are over feeding our ego. That's why the weight issue is wrapped up in that.

Let me tell you this another way. The things I was doing to be prettier, or sexier, or younger...they were not for the OM. Those things were really for me. The OM was just reflecting back what I wanted to hear about it.

When it came to my husband, he did accept me as me. When I tried to be hotter, he didn't ever seem to notice. I gave up, it didn't feel necessary in our relationship.

Now, that doesn't erase the perceived slight or how to over come it.

I think we have all been on fad diets that were unsustainable. We turn around and gain the weight back and then some most often times. Then what happens? We feel defeated, we give up, until we get another burst of energy to try something else down the line. The reason that is relevant is because I don't think anyone does anything like that long term for someone else. Most things people do is because of themselves.

After an affair, often the WS is the most depressed and ashamed of themselves. This is a time that any kind of diet or exercise that was in place prior could fail. It's honestly a separate issue from feelings about anyone else. Some people lose weight when they are depressed. I don't usually, but I did after my affair. That actually inspired me to start working out again, and it did help me with the happy chemicals in my brain. I kept at the running for that latter reason alone, weight would not be enough of an issue for me to keep that up.

Anything anyone does to "win" is always short term, not long term. I was in the highest level of wooing over the last few years, there was no question in my mind that I wanted my husband back. But, I don't feel like my exercise or weight management has anything to do with any of that. It's more that I learned that I need to light myself up with my own hobbies and interests, and I need to feel good about myself. I learned that is something you always have to be working at so you don't get too far off the rails. Maybe my consistency and effort translated some way to my husband, I do not know. It was a change he could see was happening and I tend to think the more of those you can do the more assurance you are giving your spouse.

So all this to say - what you might want to think about as a BS (I DO) is that your WS needs to become a healthier, happier person. To me, I don't see how they are ever safe without understanding they create their own well being and happiness. If it's evident that is happening, and they are doing all they can for you too - I don't think weight will be an issue.

I hope this helps. It comes down to effort. I wanted to be the best person I could for me first, and then my husband. That sounds selfish but it's the only thing that is sustainable. If I had ended up with OM I would never have reached this conclusion, and likely I would have just continued down the path of cycling through gaining weight, feeling depressed, etc.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:54 AM, February 24th (Wednesday)]

Demanding your spouse to lose weight to make your self happy is wrong.

I fail to see the how you demanding your ww lose weight to DO for you or to make you feel a way because of whatever reason is somehow right then. Aren't you in essence demanding she lose weight to make you happy/feel worth? What makes THAT okay then? I just don't see how it's different.

They ignore that power they have and the worth that a man perceives he has when a woman allows him access to her body.

A man has worth no matter what. Every person does. Just imho, it's problematic when anyone (male or female) bases their own worth on someone else.

But a woman shouldn't just be doing what you want and having sex with you so YOU can feel okay. A woman who doesn't authentically engage in sex because she wants to for herself isn't in a healthy place (and I would argue that affair sex is NEVER a representation of a healthy relationship since the sex is almost always a quid pro quo).

This level of effort for the OM shows authentically that the WW values her BH less, believes her BH will not leave her, that he will complain but she will be able to control her BH and get him to settle for less and stayed married to her because he will have to much to lose if her was to divorce her.

No I don't think so. Working out like a fiend and all that doesn't show she values om more. That shows serious insecurity and also that she doesn't value herself - because she is basing her own self worth on how someone else views her. Maybe she feels more secure around the BH and thusly doesn't feel like she 'has' to do A, B, or C.

I am sure there are some truly manipulative specimens that think the way you have described, but those are not the norm I don't think.

Also, I just find it academically interesting that this was the same attitude my cheating husband had toward me. That I 'owed' him A, B, and C to make up for him feeling whatever way he felt. Despite the fact that HE cheated, it sure didn't stop him from letting me know that I needed to do for him so he could feel manly, or worthwhile, or [fill in the blank]. He wanted me to BE something so that HE could feel a way. Not healthy and not right and not my problem. I was not there to validate his 'worth' and for him it didn't matter what I did or didn't do because HE didn't feel worth in himself.

As far as losing things in the divorce... Look, my mom was married three times. She was always the breadwinner in those relationships. My last stepdad tried royally screwing her in the divorce and she ended up having to sell her house and she walked away poorer than when she went into the marriage. I asked her if that pissed her off at the time and she looked at me and just said "what price freedom, my daughter". Meaning, freedom from a bad marriage was worth ANY COST. If you are THAT miserable in your marriage, getting out of it is priceless.

Just as an aside - I was lucky that my xwh was lazy cus he actually was entitled to half my 401k, 1/2 the house etc cus I was the money-earner. I am glad I got lucky, but I would've paid any amount of money to get clear of him and his bullshit.

Committing to marriage is committing to have sex with your spouse.

Aww. Did you write this into your vows? Sooo romantic, and not creepy at all.

Apart from medical issues or some sort of pre-arranged understanding...

Thread drift...There was an interesting study done, where the researchers identified a super-simple metric that out-predicted all of the experts in assessing which marriages would work and which ones would fail. Google on "study ratio of sex to arguments in predicting marriage success". From the Business Insider link (you'll get other interesting ones too)

frequency of lovemaking minus frequency of quarrels...A positive difference predicts marital happiness, a negative one unhappiness.

It's science!