SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you for sharing this, I will listen to it later. I saw someone posting in this topic with their notes about the 6 dimensions of the betrayal trauma and that post alone gave me a couple of light bulb moments. Will listen to the podcasts and report back later!

Hedwig: Please do let us know what you think. I also find the 6 dimensions of the betrayal trauma really helpful.

I listened to Part 2 and then went back to Part 1 and listened again.

My WH isn’t a Sex Addict so as they speak mainly about this, I didn’t get much out of this.

My WH has many addictions, he has swapped one addiction over another. He is a Narcissist and loves grandstanding. So when I was feeding his addiction, he was exceptionally happy and content with me. He didn’t need to look elsewhere for his fix.

He is not ill, as he has and can control his addiction and/or obsession when he wants to.

Whether it’s money, cars or sex, if he cannot get these, he will find something else.

He is remorseless about any minor or major indiscretion, past, present or future and justifies these to himself. He is plain vindictive. He can plan out revenge and infidelity if and when it suits him. Although he puts little thought into any of his actions he can act on impulse and does stupid things. But when he is hellbent on revenge, he is full on vengeful and takes his time to plan, plot and enact his revenge.

He doesn’t see his actions as Betrayal. He sees these as entitlements...

I just listened to both podcast parts back to back and I think it's very, very good. A lot of it resonated with me.

When it comes to the six dimensions of trauma, I think every infidelity has their own specific cocktail of the dimensions in different measures. For example, the life crisis dimension wasn't too big in my case because we didn't have kids, we were not married or living together, so handling the fallout and the practical day-to-day activities was much less. That is, if I understand what life crisis dimension means. I might have to go back to the podcast and listen again. Same goes for the sexual trauma because he was not a sex addict like a lot of the WS on this site are not.

However, the emotional trauma and the shattered inner world. Whew. When Marnie was talking about gaslighting, I remembered some pretty f'ed up conversations we've had and some very covert emotional abuse. After my WEXBF had broken one of the conditions I had set for R (sobriety), he confessed that through text and in the same text told me he was mad at me because he always paid for stuff in our relationship. Talk about freaking deflecting! Such an A-hole move. Shattered inner world, same. What I believed about the world and my partner was not true. Even now, I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, thinking nobody on this freaking planet is trustworthy and everyone is going to cheat.

Anyways, I loved it. The therapists also started a podcast series 'helping couples heal' but since I am out of the relationship, I'm not sure whether it's very helpful for me. I do like the steps they mentioned for healing (individually or together). Especially the part about identifying your losses. While I didn't have the thing about finding cards (somehow did not happen in 1,5 years of R), I can think of a couple of other small things that really hurt.

LadyG: Since you are separated, and your former husband is remorseless, I hope you can still use this info to help yourself heal by understanding how the trauma has effected you. My FWH isn't a sex addict either, but I still got a tremendous amount of help from the podcasts. The therapists did mention at some point that they realize they are using that addiction model, and that it might not apply to everyone listening. They have a lot of experience with sex addicts, but they think most of what they say applies to betrayal (in general) in a committed relationship, and I agree. There are lots of BS whose spouses didn't have affairs IRL, and others whose spouses had emotional affairs, but not PAs. I have known people IRL in that situation, and I think much of this information applies to the betrayal they went through. Betrayal is devastating and can be traumatic even for the BS whose spouses didn't have PAs.

Hedwig: I'm glad you found this helpful. I've listened to all of the podcasts that they continued to do, and even though you are now out of that relationship, you might find much of it helpful on your continued healing journey. Many of us experienced the gaslighting and deflecting you mention. Some of the podcasts I've listened to address that and the mindset of the WS a bit. It's all a form of abuse. The shattered inner world takes a long time to heal from, but there are trustworthy people out there who will not betray you, and some of us in R are even experiencing that with our former WS who have worked on themselves and changed a huge amount. It is possible. Good luck to you.

I am now listening to the 'Helping Couples Heal' podcast Marnie Breecker and Duane Osterlind started after the 2 episodes OP posted practically went viral.

I have to say, again: wow, where was this when Dday happened? Why did my CC not know this? Why do not more CC know this? This is vital information!

Even if you're not in the relationship/marriage anymore, like me, this podcast is still so so helpful. I am listening to the episode called 'Understanding Betryal with Dr. Omar Minwalla part one'. Dr Minwalla is the doctor who came up with the betrayal trauma model. I am only 10 minutes or so in and I love it.

He talks about psychological, emotional and relational abuse patterns in the context of betrayal trauma and mentions the following examples:

- chronic patterns of lying

- lying by omission

- gaslighting (intentionally manipulating your partners reality)

- denial

- avoiding responsibility of the truth

- blaming the partner or relationship

- various types of defensive reactions such as stonewalling or refusing to disclose info

- providing partial disclosures that are framed as full disclosures (as we say here: trickle truth)

- using threats or intimidation or anger to shut down a partner

- violating agreements or promises or boundaries

- deceptive management of ones spouse or family (? I do not understand this one)

all sorts of individual type of patterns

- chronic diminishment for years

- years of sexual rejection

- years of emotional erosion and withdrawal

- partner may be wondering for years that there is something wrong and blaming themselves and being confused as to why they feel that way

Recognize them, anyone? We could use the patterns to make a BINGO card and see how many of them we have (had) in our relationships

One of the other things Dr Minwalla said (in Marnie's words) is that other clinicians that do not address the abuse piece and maybe avoid it for a number of reasons are not necessarily doing the WS's a service by sending the message that, the client is not capable of looking at the abuse patterns, and not capable of taking it in and being with it and naming it and tolerating it and learn how to do it differently going forward and learning to understand then the damage that has been done as a response to all of those behaviours because that's how you can heal the relationship.

Dr Minwalla adds that it's actually colluding with the abuse if you're not naming it.

I am so mad at my MC and MC in general. Why do they not know this? Why do they not educate themselves? Why are they so quick to jump to discussing 'other issues in the relationship'

I have also been listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast and I had my WH listen as well. It really explains betrayal trauma and triggers in a way that is very affirming for betrayed spouses and also helpful for WS's to understand. I will say that betrayed men may find the gender usage hard to stomach, as the therapists always refer to the betrayed spouse as "she". They do acknowledge that about a third of sex addicts are women but then they go back to always referring to betrayed spouses as female. The sex addiction model may or may not fit your situation. In our case, my husband was addicted to the attention from one particular person. He has been a recovering alcoholic for 24 years and he did not feel that the addict model was super accurate for his infidelity situation. He feels more like he had developed a sense of entitlement and magical thinking rather than a true addiction. However, he and I have both found the podcasts to be empathetic and useful, especially the thorough explanation of primary and secondary betrayal trauma.

Hedwig:

I am so mad at my MC and MC in general. Why do they not know this? Why do they not educate themselves? Why are they so quick to jump to discussing 'other issues in the relationship'

It's not just MCs. I talked to my (former) IC about Minwalla, the relational betrayal model, the need to put specific language to the specific acts etc. Despite her "significant experience" with infidelity, she had zero interest in actually educating herself about theories of the last 20 years.

Since my last post, I have listened to more episodes, especially the interviews with Dr. Minwalla. I really think he is a genius in explaining betrayal trauma and relationship abuse in understandable terms. The idea that hiding an affair is a type of emotional abuse, even if the partner did not actively lie or gaslight, was very meaningful to me. Also the idea of compound trauma as a series of small but hurtful actions as opposed to a ptsd from a major traumatic event. I talked to my therapist about it today. My husband is ready to own the idea of being a relationship abuser, which I find to be very helpful and affirming. My husband is going to be having major surgery very soon, so he is not able to turn his full attention to therapy but this podcast is helping in the mean time. I highly recommend, even if your partner does not fit the sex addict model. (And even if you are a man whose wife cheated, the explanation of betrayal trauma might be very helpful if you can deal with the female pronouns for the BS.)

AccidentalDiva: I can totally understand how the use of 'she' for the BS would be very invalidating for a lot of male BS's. It would be so much more inclusive if they just used they. I have found the model very useful too, even if in my case it was 'just' a ONS and not SA related. The model is very widely applicable. I love the podcasts because it puts words to my feelings and experiences, I can understand and name what I've been through. It's such a relief.

gmc94: I hate it! Even my IC, who I very much liked and has been a tremendous help both with the affair trauma and other issues, said "well, sometimes people cheat just because they are horney" and "maybe you can look back on it someday as a phase in your relationship where you were both just struggling", which was very invalidating. A

nd the freaking CC was not even properly trained, she did not have a degree, she just took a couple of courses and read some books. Aaargh, sometimes I feel the real intense urge to leave a Google review or send her an e-mail to berate her and tell her to educate herself, so she won't do anymore damage. The audacity to charge that amount of money for basically doing what I can now do myself (and even better!), because I have read the same book as her.

I am so glad that many of you continue to be helped by this thread. I have found all their podcasts helpful, and my FWH has too. The free podcasts have helped us more than most of the MCs and ICs we've gone too.

I have shared on SI about my own frustrations with MCs and ICs, and I can relate to what you all are saying. My FWH and I both feel we, and our marriage, were HARMED by most of the MCs and ICs we went to. We are the consumers, and it's up to us to be proactive, and interview a therapist to find out what model they are working from. Then fire them if they say crap like Hedwig's IC (see below quote).

IMHO, not having a therapist is better, than a therapist who is pushing a model that will slow down your healing. Life is too short for that.

I hate it! Even my IC, who I very much liked and has been a tremendous help both with the affair trauma and other issues, said "well, sometimes people cheat just because they are horney" and "maybe you can look back on it someday as a phase in your relationship where you were both just struggling", which was very invalidating.

I'd like to have 10 minutes with that IC! People don't DECEIVE because they are horney you dimwit.

It is a CRIME that so many therapists happily take our $, yet do not have the knowledge/training to comprehend why people commit infidelity, and how to help people who have experienced betrayal trauma. It seems most plumbers and mechanics take more interest in pursuing continuing education courses than most therapists. It's required in many fields.

It seems hard for most people to admit they've made a mistake, and if you're a therapist who made a huge mistake with so many clients over the course of many years, all because you didn't keep up with continuing your education and being willing to change your model. . . Well that would be a big pill to swallow, and I guess lots of therapists aren't ready to do so.

I think of Omar, Marnie, and Duane, as pioneers who are moving the field forward. Maybe someday the field will change enough so that this info is easily available to all BS and WS who wish to heal, and that the average therapist down your street will have been trained in this more accurate, relational, and helpful model. Until then it's up to us to share widely and support each other.

[This message edited by shellofme at 7:17 AM, June 17th (Wednesday)]

Bump for WhatIsNow

bump

Hope more people new to SI (If that's you reading this: I'm sorry you need to be here, but glad you found SI), find this post. I wish I had these to listen to closer to my DDay, and that's why I started this thread.

Anyhow, hope it's continuing to help people. My FWH and I found the new episodes about empathy and the WS needing to be emotionally attuned to their BS helpful.

Bumped for StillFrozen

Really amazing stuff. I'm really glad you thought to share it and the mods agreed to that . I think like Shirley Glass' book, it's gonna help a lot of hurting people!

sad12008:

Sorry you need to be here, but glad you found this site, and that you found this podcast helpful.

bumping for StarbucksMom

This was one of the first threads I read after I started posting here last year. It led me to send the podcast links to my WW. She reacted horribly and attacked me for allegedly suggesting she was a sex addict.

In any case, this was one of the important things that got me off high center last year and started getting me to insist on getting what I wanted.

As a result of this, we found a betrayal trauma specialist practice in our geographic area.

Highly recommend listening to these podcasts. If you combine this information with "Cheating in a Nutshell" and Haidt's research on moral emotions and moral foundations, you will have a very full picture of what you are experiencing as a betrayed spouse and what the right course might be for you, regardless of your partner's lack of remorse or demonstration of real repentance.

Thumos:

Thank you for posting about your experience! It feels wonderful to know that this has helped some people, and I am hoping this thread, the podcast, or any info related to betrayal trauma, will make it into the healing library, so Just Found Out people can find this help right away. I was told years ago that if this thread made it to double digit pages it might happen.

I started this thread, because I wanted to help others avoid what I experienced before finding this information. I thought I'd lost my mind. I went to therapists that didn't help, and most of them made things worse.

BTW, your spouse doesn't need to a SA, in order for the betrayal trauma information to help the BS, or the WS. A spouse that CHOOSES TO LIE, particularly in order to have intimate experiences with others outside the committed relationship, has an integrity disorder. That's Omar Minwalla's idea, and it resonates with me, and this newer way of thinking about committing infidelity seems to be taking hold in the next generation of professionals that treat addicts, cheaters, and betrayed spouses.

As one of the posters on this thread shared, Omar trained Marnie, who is one of the therapists on this podcast, and he is interviewed on this podcast a few times as well. If anyone reading doesn't like podcasts you can google these people and read the ideas for yourself.

I'm not familiar with the book you mentioned. I will check it out. Thanks for the feedback!