SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She doesn't know what to do?

Well, since she has read your posts here, and knows about this site, tell her to sign up,and post on the wayward forum. They will guide her.

Typically we wouldn't recommend sharing your safe place with an unremorseful wayward, but she already knows.

I’m sorry I missed that she knows about this site now and is reading your posts. Is that true? If it is, Mrs Achilles you should stop reading your husbands thread and post your own on wayward side. Let him have this space for his own healing from what you have done to him.

Achilles, It was unclear whether or not she researched and gave you a rebuilding plan. Did she? If so, would you share what was in it?

If she has, it’s best to sit down and review each item and discuss what each really means. Then tell her what you want to add to the list. Use the list I sent you via PM as a guide or other suggestions you have received in this thread.

I’m hoping that finding a new job is on that list. That may have to wait until after quarantine, but to me that would be a deal breaker. And of course absolutely no contact. Even for work purposes. Perhaps she can get someone to communicate with him instead if necessary for work.

And of course IC w a therapist that specializes in Infidelity.

And finally I’d ask for a letter from her each week on different topics. First topic is what it means to her to have you stay and work on rebuilding. Second is why she wants to be with you for the rest of her life. Third is how she imagines you felt when you found out about the affair and what pain you are feeling. I can come up with more.

Her willingness to do these things will show you if she really can rebuild what she destroyed. If you don’t feel her all in, it’s best to openly tell her that and then speak to a lawyer about proceeding with divorce.

Sending thoughts of strength to you.

Hey, another question. We had sex the other night and it felt good and right. Is that normal?

This is normal. I wouldn't be too worried about it; it's probably both good and bad. Sex can be complicated outside of this shit anyway. And it's one way people communicate.

it seems like she doesn't care.

Things get twisted back to me, what I haven't done.

but complains I haven't given her a list of what I want her to do.

gets defensive when it goes beyond a simple question. No in depth conversation.

I get the feeling she is doing what she thinks she needs to do to get by.

I hear about it taking two and how is she supposed to know what I want her to do.

she just walked out on me basically mid conversation.

These are all big problems, of course. Not R behavior.

Hopefully other people with more R experience will chime in.

I have heard a lot of people swear by the book "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From an Affair." Maybe you both should get a copy?

Many WS's have also had some success joining SI and posting and getting advice in the Wayward Side forum. However, I would NOT let her know about this site yet; it will eliminate this as a safe, secret place for you. Maybe get advice on that from other WS's.

What's most concerning to me is that these words, thoughts, and actions by WS indicate that she's still in "affair-mode." I only say that because I've seen it a million times here as well as in my own life (my exWW also worked with her AP).

The facts that 1) the OBS seems to be a rug-sweeper and 2) AP and WW still work together all make me think that she's still either in contact with him on some secret level, or she's just biding her time until she can see him again. If they *are* going into the office periodically these days (essential workers or whatever), I'd bet money they're still having secret conversations at minimum.

Sorry. It's just what it all indicates and I want to be sure you've got your eyes open.

Remorseful WS's who are committed to R and want to work on this stuff just act totally differently than your wife is currently. So be careful.

She found out about me texting OBS the following day by walking in while I was posting here and reading it

It seems like if she doesn't have contact with him everything is ok I get that everything is falling apart for her.

Achilles, we all want to believe that DDay and exposure alone are hitting rock bottom for a WS but that's just not true. It's hard for us to imagine seeing the pain and devastation of DDay and not getting a huge wake up call. But truthfully, it's clear that she doesn't believe everything is falling apart otherwise she'd be scrambling to save your marriage. To her this is just another bump in the road that she can pressure and argue her way out of. That's what her ACTIONS are telling you: R is negotiable. The A isn't that big of a deal and is on par with any little marriage gripe she has about you. That's not the actions or beliefs of someone whose life is falling apart. It's that of someone who feels inconvenienced by their BS's pain. The only one feeling like everything is falling apart is you because you're now realizing that she's a poor candidate for R.

You don't have to give her any direction for R and even if you did, she's not ready to hear it because she still believes what she needs to do for R is up for debate when it's not. She has internet access. She has access to SI and Google. She can figure it out herself. It's not hard with even the slightest bit of effort. She's complaining about you not telling her what to do for two reasons. First, because she can and it's easier to pawn that task off on you. Second, because if she actually researched what she should be doing for R, she'd come back with a long list of difficult and time consuming actions she could be taking and she's hoping if you tell her what to do, your list will be a lot shorter and easier. It's not about you in her mind. It's still all about her and how she can get through this with as little consequences and changes to her current lifestyle as possible. She may even be waiting for this to blow over so she can pick back up with OM again once you and OBS settle down.

You're not sure what to do right now? Go back to the 180. You're looking for remorse from her where there is none. Focus on yourself. Focus on your kids. Wait for her to show the initiative for R. And if she doesn't, get yourself into a better position so that you can move on without her. If she really wants this marriage, she will read here and other places online and see how much she's blowing this second chance you've given her. She will shape up. And if she's not, she will take this time to float through the relationship doing whatever she wants. Step back and watch how she handles this instead of trying and failing to lead her to R.

A D settlement can include a provision that she gets medical insurance, with certain minimum coverages, for your kids.

Achilles

You are still in communication with her desiring R.

She needs to be totally in or totally out. Otherwise, she has the upper hand as you are still just an option to her.

She is not even regretful, let alone remorseful.

As long as you are focused on R, there is no pressure on her to R. Only when you stop crying and acting sad in front of her will that change.

Communication with her has been encouraged as a way to R. IMHO "TRUE" communication can only happen between equals who both want the same thing. True communication can only happen between two trusting equals in a relationship.

Your relationship is not equal in any way. You weep and she walks away. There is no hope with her while that is happening.

I'm an old history teacher. When I taught about Pearl Harbor, I didn't teach about how we got better relations with the Japanese by opening up peace talks. I taught about FDR's "Day Of Infamy" speech & our Declaration of War.

The Senate voted 99-1 to declare war. A lady from Maine voted to continue peace talks. Were the 99 right or was she right?

Charles Lindberg was the hero of the world in the 20's and 30's. However, he was against us going to war against Hitler. He wanted us to just sue for peace and be friends with the Germans. It ruined him.

All I am saying is that peace talks don't work with cheating, lying, & immoral people. I think it is time to go to war.

You say you are no good at the 180, that its just not you. The USA wasn't any good at war, it just wasn't "us" at the beginning of WWI & WWII, but by the end of those wars we were the best in the world. And we saved the world. You need to save your world, but I don't think your peace talks are going to do it.

Ok, tying up loose ends:

Yes she read what I was posting here when she came into the room. Does she go onto the site and read my posts? I don't know. I don't care I told her about what I was doing here trying to get help. If she reads it maybe it will open her eyes, or maybe not.

Yes she gave me a rebuilding plan. I don't think she did research into it as it came pretty fast. It does not include getting a new job. Some stuff does not really apply such as having people without me knowing in our home. This was not an issue for this affair. DNA test, the kids are mine, sure of that. etc

I like the idea of her writing me letters and am going to ask for that.

I told her I could not tell her how to rebuild this marriage, just work on it.

I also told her I am not sure she has not had contact with him. She swears she has not, but I told her I struggle to believe that and she will have to earn my trust.

They both continue a regular work schedule. H e works in a satellite office and comes to the main office usually once a week to do things the satellite office can't do. So personal contact once a week and skype, email and other means of contact always possible.

I was thinking about when she told me she initially was contacting him in a game app and realized there is no way to really monitor a cheating spouse. They will find an undetectable way to have contact if that is what they want to do

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 2:27 AM, April 17th (Friday)]

Ok, just sitting here thinking after the post.

I was in a high stress job that required split second decisions, no hesitation. No problem, made them all the time. Good at what I did.

Now it comes to infidelity and I am paralyzed what gives? How do you go from hard charging decision maker to indecisive?

I was thinking about when she told me she initially was contacting him in a game app and realized there is no way to really monitor a cheating spouse. They will find an undetectable way to have contact if that is what they want to do

You are correct. Being a marriage warden is a thankless task anyway.

Plus they work together so you’ll never be able to monitor work phones or email/chat.

Now it comes to infidelity and I am paralyzed what gives? How do you go from hard charging decision maker to indecisive?

You're still in shock. Over time clarity will come. You do need to put some thought into it.

Pros vs cons

She swears she has not, but I told her I struggle to believe that and she will have to earn my trust.

Well she is a proven liar. They work together. Affairs are addictive. You get the addict around the source.....

Was IC on the list? It needs to be.

And so does getting a new job. If it were me I’d tell her “you need to find a new job. One where you never see or hear from him again in any capacity. I know that is hard right now but you need to share with me every week what you are doing to try and make it happen. I can’t force you do do this. You should want to do this to help me heal. If you don’t, then you can’t force me to stay in this marriage. I deserve better than having to know you see him every week of have to communicate with the many you cheated on me with. “

So have her put those things on her list along with the letters.

What else do you need to see? Is there anything else you need from her to to help you heal? You should meet with her weekly at a set time to discuss her progress on these items. It’s part of the hard work of rebuilding trust. It’s not glamorous.

While no more people in the home without you knowing is good, but the list should also include “no more male friends or acquaintances. She’s proven she can’t handle that in a mature way. And if she goes out for drinks after work it’s only when you can join her, not alone with mixed company any more.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:38 PM, April 17th (Friday)]

I was thinking about when she told me she initially was contacting him in a game app

I'm just curious how this came to pass if they work together? Honestly I'm just curious. Why are they on some sort of game app together as coworkers? Whenever I hear about affairs that begin on gaming apps, they are usually people who don't know each other in real life. Or was it simply a less-detectable method of communication they decided on?

They both continue a regular work schedule.

Also curious: are you feeling like this is something you can deal with long-term? That they will continue to work together? Can you put up with that for years?

I can't ignore @Marz's point: "You get the addict around the source..."

Again, just curious what your thoughts are around this.

Now it comes to infidelity and I am paralyzed what gives? How do you go from hard charging decision maker to indecisive?

You get traumatized. Not using that word lightly. It's your animal brain going haywire.

Achilles, it's frustrating but WS do not know how to heal their spouses. It is something they have to learn so the BS, unfairly, has to have some patience if they are going to offer R.

However, a WS can be flailing about at things but be showing consistent, sincere effort driven by a deepening remorse and growing empathy. That is what is needed to really have a chance at R. Again, frustratingly, this takes some time to develop for some WS. Giving her feedback will help accelerate it if she is serious. IC with the right counselor will help all this develop. Reading about healing spouses after affairs will help. Reading about boundaries to protect the marriage will help. These are all things that are readily available for your WW. If she isn't acting on them, why not?

Some WS with good intent get overwhelmed and lost. Other WS say they want R but really are not willing to do the work. Which is she? The former needs some guidance and support to get her act together and build a plan to make the marriage safe. The latter, well, needs to see D papers.

Achilles, sympathies to you for the shit show. I'm late to the thread and didn't read every page, so apologies if I am redundant. I can relate to a lot of your experience, my 50's were so hard with family deaths, raising teenagers and dealing with chronic neck and back pain, business problems, all the life crap. I thought my marriage was rock solid and we were a great team, soul mates and best friends until I found out he had a girlfriend for 8 years. I had no one to talk to about this either and felt so alone. Like yours, mine was terrible at ending it, terrible at talking about it, unable to read helpful literature and unwilling to go to counseling. Not the best recovery and reconciliation prospect. But here I am, here we are, still trying.

To answer your question, should you end it, I think it's too soon to know what you want, or what is in your best interest. I went to a therapist a year in when I learned how deep the lies went, and he said you can always leave. Know that you can always make that decision, but take your time and know what you want your life to be like, try to envision yourself down the road, next year, in five years, what do you see? I couldn't envision a thing, just static and pain, so I took my time and I kept a list of reasons to stay and reasons to go. I went from pleasing and peacemaking to demanding and we did what I wanted, when I wanted it and he changed his game with time. A lot of time. The 2-5 year thing is real, I'm sorry to say. That's after the affair is OVER and the lies are DONE. That took a year and a half for me. I accept now that even if I am miserable in the moment with him, I'd be miserable without him too, so we are trying to make the best of what's left, in our sixties. Not the story I saw coming, but the story I got.

It was a very long hard road to get through to him, to get him to be honest with me and he really hasn't been honest about much I didn't find out on my own and confront him with. I went on instinct alone and laid down a defensive perimeter and went full tilt into save my marriage mode. Never occurred to me until the fourth or fifth awful discovery that I could trust nothing he said or did, and neither could he. He still can't explain where his head was, and swears keeping his marriage and me was always what he wanted, and he pretended to be faithful and remorseful, but was still unfaithful and lying. He was pretty lost for a while. I was too shocked and hurt to see it, but there were tiny gut feelings that things weren't making sense and that he was not telling me the entire story, or some details didn't add up. Mostly it took me a year to decode that anytime he got defensive or angry or walked away mid fight it was because the lies were closing in and he was overwhelmed. I was relentless with the questions and never let up and there were some huge fights, but I got my truth, eventually. And I stayed. He stayed.

I was so lost in my own emotional upheaval and trauma the first year I couldn't see how to protect myself and I'm still wounded from the trickle truth and piles of lies and betrayal. You are lucky to be here and reaching out for advice and guidance earlier in the game. Armor up and don't let yourself trust too quickly if you decide to stay. I found this site a year after discovery and was still up to my eyeballs in lies, and he was up to his in deceit and shame and confusion. It took us both a while to realize that I was at my break point and was willing to walk away if he couldn't be faithful or honest in a way I could see. I think the real turning point was the word lawyer. I wish I could tell you he chose me, but I found them out and scared her away and made him pick me. It's humiliating, but it is what it is. If they were still working together, I'd have to be sedated, or I might have decided to leave, so your situation is trickier.

I did all the math and knew together was better for me than apart, but gave him the same grace he gave me with his affair. He told me it was easier to get into his relationship with her than to get out, which is his only explanation for false recovery/cake eating. So I give him the same deal. I'm staying as long as it's easier to stay than to go. Make me want to stay. He is trying, he does care, but he is awful at owning his shit or dealing with his shame. It's been a learning process for us both and it's hard as hell. If your WW has the same stubborn personality, compartmentalized stunted emotions and issues dealing with shame as my WH, I wish you strength through the process of figuring out what works for you. Mine thought trips and fun diversions would fix everything, but no matter where we go, there we are...

As to the sex question, I use it in many ways, recreationally, for a distraction, to reclaim my territory, just to feel good or get her out of my head. Sometimes her ghost shows up to ruin the fun and I'll tell him. I'll banish her to the corner and carry on if I want to, or tell him never mind, please just hold me until I feel better. It is a mess that some of our best sex was during false reconciliation, and it messes with my head that my best left him still drawn to a needy skank until I removed her from our lives. I ask him all the time if he misses the connection with her, the adrenaline rush, the ego kibbles. He says no, and I try to believe him. But yeah, if it feels good, you should do it. Hysterical bonding is a useful tool and a pretty fun one most of the time.

Sorry such a long reply. And best of luck to you moving forward, deciding things. It's hard. I wish you peace.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 8:41 AM, April 17th, 2020 (Friday)]

Now it comes to infidelity and I am paralysed what gives? How do you go from hard charging decision maker to indecisive?

My theory is it is emotional and you have no training for it. At work, while you might not explicitly "train", you can avoid absorbing what is needed to get the job done. Plus rarely is your response emotional. In fact success in so many careers you leave it at the door. Look around the forums and you will come across any number of doctors, lawyers, pilots or military men who can't make decisions.

If you are genuine about your marriage and family, that is where your emotions lie. Threats and damage to them take you into a different realm for which you have no understanding as to how to react. However you have an advantage. You know how to be decisive. You just don't know how to do it in these circumstances. How did you learn to make decisions for work. I bet by watching and listening to others, weighing options and then choosing one. This is where this forum is great. Lots of people to offer help.

Take your time and don't beat yourself up because you feel you shouldn't be "x" or "y". We have all been there.

The game app.

I worked nights 7PM to 7 AM. They became friends at work and running partners at lunch. they had been mildly flirting already and He asked her if she played the game trivia crack, He set her up an account on her phone. They began playing the game in the evenings after I went to work and the kids and his wife went to bed. I guess there is a messaging component to the game. That is when he first professed his attraction to her and the affair really took off. Playing and messaging for a couple of hours a night with text messages and pictures thrown in. The PA followed shortly.

I get the addict thing. There were several times during the affair that were logical stopping points, like when he confessed to his wife the first time. Apparently things stopped (about 8-9 months), she says everything stopped, but then he got friendly with her again and things slowly picked back up again to the way they had been. She just couldn't tell him no. I mean the day he first told her it was over and he was going to tell his wife, they had an encounter after he told her that. WTF! I mean, I'm breaking this off but can we fool around first? How do you fall for that?

Yes IC was on the rebuilding plan

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 5:33 PM, April 17th (Friday)]

from a practical stand point, how do you deal with everything? The kids are old enough to have a say in everything. My daughter has been saying we should get a divorce, sad it kills me. I think today showed me my wife can't deal with making it work as she has been mad at me all day. She asked if she could put her wedding ring back on and I said I didn't think it was time yet. Totally downhill from there> Seems close to D

I think today showed me my wife can't deal with making it work as she has been mad at me all day. She asked if she could put her wedding ring back on and I said I didn't think it was time yet. Totally downhill from there> Seems close to D

This has nothing to do with her not knowing what to do or flailing around. She wants a rugsweep. If she doesn’t want to do the work you can’t make her.

Wayward attitude. You should be over it by now?

Nothing changes you have a high risk of repeated behavior.

Plus OM is still around.