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Finally, … What I fear is that she gives you an unclear message. One that you take optimistically. If she says something like “let’s just see how things go” then you must really understand what she’s saying.

As Bigger's said, this just leaves all the power in her hands, and you will continue to be manipulated. I figure she'll string you along for a few more months, then it she'll threaten to go through with the divorce, and you'll play nice for a few more months while she continues to screw around, and on and on.

That seems to have been her plan so far, and it's working. She has everything she wants.

Time to do something different. Don't give her what she wants, don't be helping her with anything. Either she wants to be married to you, or she doesn't. If she does, she needs to start acting like it. If she doesn't, or gives you the "I don't know line", tell her to get the divorce in gear, you're tired of being used.

Let's just see how things go.........that's the line she gave me about a week and a half ago. Along with that she said we could start going to dinner and etc starting this past Sunday (which went pretty well).

Although she has told me when I ask that she isn't seeing the OM. (I didn't ask on Sunday) So I guess she thinks that I'm buying that even though I know different.

What I don't know is what she is telling the OM. There is no telling I guess.

She should get my counter suit this week. I guess I will see soon if she is really willing to slow down the D. If she does is it a good sign that she may want to come back?

*** as a member***

I am really not trying to be snarky. Why in the world would you want to be with her?

What positives will she bring to your life?

She is having you fix her car while going home to her boyfriend and having sex with him.

This is a 2x4 presented respectfully. But go back and re-read it as that it the gods-awful reality of your situation.

This is where you need to be:

"I refuse to be in infidelity one second longer. You are lying to me and I refuse to associate with a person who lies to me. If you ever want to be honest with me you have my number"

I am really not trying to be snarky. Why in the world would you want to be with her?

What positives will she bring to your life?

I guess I currently seeing this as an awful mistake that she has made. I really do still love her and enjoy spending time with her as i always have. We have always got along so well with little conflict over the 11 years. Really all of this happened out of no where. I guess that is why I am having such a hard time with it all. I don't know maybe the two of us are just too much a like? We both like to be right.....but who doesn't.

May I ask you a difficult question? It has to do with your mode of thinking. Would it make a difference to you if you realized she actually deliberately chose to do these things? This is not a mistake, she deliberately set out to break her marital contract. Don't you deserve better?

MH,

Although she has told me when I ask that she isn't seeing the OM. (I didn't ask on Sunday) So I guess she thinks that I'm buying that even though I know different.

What I don't know is what she is telling the OM.

If you have definitive proof that she is living with the guy, or seeing him, then you really should tell her, and ask her why she is hiding it. And, as you yourself say, ask her what she is telling him about her visits with you. Is she lying to him too?

The point of this is not to start a fight, but for you to let her know what you know, and that it is not fair or right to be telling you things that aren't true or giving you false hope. And that is how to put it, if using the word 'lie' feels too emotive.

I have mentioned before in this thread that her relationship with her manager is unlikely to be well-received by their HR department, and so she has to be very careful to ensure that you do not contact HR with your story and evidence. If she is living with the guy, or actively seeing him, the HR thing is a very good reason indeed for her to be telling you there is no relationship. You haven't said how you know their relationship is still active, or where she is living, but while you are hoping for the best, it may be just as well to prepare for the worst and get either you or a private investigator to get some documentary evidence of them co-habiting. Like pictures of her car outside his place several times, pictures of her going in and out, etc.

Her not telling you the truth on this aspect is very significant, because it could lend itself to her moving back in with you and continuing to the relationship with the OM during work time. I know you love her, but she may simply be cake-eating at the moment, and bouncing between two men in her life.

The point is, what your life, and your relationship with her needs, are clarity and honesty. At the moment, you are getting neither. So if she is lying about the state of her relationship with the OM, you need to get and compile your evidence that proves they are still together, and let your wife know that you know. Until she can start being honest with you again, could you trust her if she said she wanted to move back in, and was then going on lots of business trips with the OM again?

I think she's being very 'cute' here, controlling things by carefully managing what she says, and what she doesn't say. Even though you are effectively in a position of being willing to accept her back if she finishes the affair, I really think you need to take a stronger stance than that. That does not mean being aggressive, it means standing up for your right to be told the truth.

Without truth being brought back into the way she relates to you, how can you ever have any faith in the affair having ended? Wanting reconciliation is fine if that is where your heart is, but you have to bring your head into the game too. If you make it easy for her to live by the lie, the half-truth, or the omission, and you accept her back under those terms, what kind of reconciliation will it be? One where she continues to see the OM, but tells you it is all over, while you know different?

I guess what I am getting at is that no matter how much you would like her back, it is not in your interest to let her back unconditionally, because it will only lead to more pain for you if she comes back in a cloud of misinformation and continues seeing the OM. The only people that will suit is her and the OM. So if you know she is lying about anything, you need to call her on it, because not contradicting her just so you have a 'nice' dinner is effectively telling her it's fine to base a reconciliation on lies. We all know it isn't. And there is no reason why you cannot reconcile if she starts telling the truth, is there? I know you probably feel like you don't want to say or do anything that might rock the boat, but sometimes the boat needs to be rocked, to get rid of the unhealthy element of dishonesty that will just cause problems in future if it is allowed to continue.

Would you really be out of line to say something like, "You know that I love you, and how unhappy I have been about us being apart. You know that I would like us to be together again. However, that can never happen if you continue to be dishonest with me. I would far rather you be honest with me and hurt me than lie to me and make me a fool. At least do me the courtesy and respect of telling me the truth, whatever else you may think of me."

Yes, you want her back, but you need to look out for your best interests too. Don't let a liar waltz back into your life; instead, consider reconciliation with someone who has come far enough out of the 'fog' to start treating you with the basic respect that all human beings deserve. That can happen, but only if you make it clear to her that lies and omissions will prevent that from happening. Honesty has to be restored before a meaningful reconciliation can begin, and now would be a good time to start working on that, before there has been any serious talk of the future.

Whether or not this was a mistake on her part, it will be a mistake on yours to give her the impression that it is fine to lie to you, whether you reconcile or part ways. And if you stand up for yourself, and you are not a pushover, she will respect that, and bringing respect back into the dynamic between you is also important. That doesn't mean being Schwarzenegger, it means politely asserting your rights, starting with the right to honesty.

I'm hopeful for you, MH, I just think you need to be your own best friend here and set out your boundaries and needs. The woman you want back should be a remorseful and honest person, not a lying cake-eater. It is your choice about which one you let back into your life if reconciliation does become a prospect. We both know which one you should choose!

Does she know you are filing a countersuit?

You need to at least give the impression your enjoying the dating scene.

Quite frankly, her affair qualifies as squalid. Taking up with a nasty character like Buff is self serving. My guess is she is now trying to play you both. He sounds nasty. It will be harder than you think to get over this if she does come back. The security of having her as a mate is gone forever.

MH2 , I have been following your story. I am all for R under the right circumstances. I am in R and 2 years in. I know what it takes , it takes a lot of work, both parties have to be in 100 percent and even at that there are no guarantees. I can't tell you the number of times I felt like throwing in the towel and my wife has been an example of remorse.

I feel like your wife is playing you . If R is to be considered you BOTH have to be invested in the process, not just you. I get the impression is all your wife is doing is dipping her toe into the pool of R just to keep you hopeful. This will never work. She hasn't really done anything substantial to become safe and trying to save the marriage. You need to be firm and really draw the line in the sand with her.

I am afraid why you don't is you are afraid the marriage is slipping away and you are trying your best to save it no matter what. The fact is your marriage is already dead . Your wife killed it. You are just sleeping with its corpse. Your wife has given her heart to another . You have gotten some great advice so far, but if you continue down this path it will not end well.

Without truth being brought back into the way she relates to you, how can you ever have any faith in the affair having ended? Wanting reconciliation is fine if that is where your heart is, but you have to bring your head into the game too. If you make it easy for her to live by the lie, the half-truth, or the omission, and you accept her back under those terms, what kind of reconciliation will it be? One where she continues to see the OM, but tells you it is all over, while you know different?

If she does comeback she needs to be truthful about everything. Coming back and continuing to see the OM won't work and I realize that.

May I ask you a difficult question? It has to do with your mode of thinking. Would it make a difference to you if you realized she actually deliberately chose to do these things? This is not a mistake, she deliberately set out to break her marital contract. Don't you deserve better?

I think they whole thing started as a mistake and she got played. But you are right where it is now is a deliberate choice. I do deserve better. I guess I am loyal to a fault.

Does she know you are filing a countersuit?

Yes, she knows it is coming. She said when she gets it she will also talk to her lawyer about the R agreement our state has (it legally puts the D on hold until one of us wants to move forward or withdraw the D) She didn't say if she would sign it or not though wants to talk to lawyer first.

I feel like your wife is playing you . If R is to be considered you BOTH have to be invested in the process, not just you. I get the impression is all your wife is doing is dipping her toe into the pool of R just to keep you hopeful. This will never work. She hasn't really done anything substantial to become safe and trying to save the marriage. You need to be firm and really draw the line in the sand with her.

I think she may be playing me too. You are right, if there is R we both have to be in 100%. I also agree that she hasn't done anything substantial to be safe. I hoping the first thing is her signing the legal R agreement. If she isn't willing to do that then I know right where I stand.

[This message edited by MissingHer2 at 11:35 AM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

Either she wants to be married to you, or she doesn't.

She shows no indication she wants to remain married to you. She's waving goodbye from the ship as it pulls out of port, and you are smiling and waving back, until at some point you are going to realize that you are standing on the dock and she has sailed with her OM.

How nice of you. I'm sure she will appreciate you being so accommodating, and making it as easy and painless for HER as you did.

( yes, I'm being snarky)

She wants to set fire to the marriage, and is asking you to be a good boy and run down to the 7-Eleven and fill up the gas cans,...pretty please?

You need a whole new attitude.

1survivor,

Did you start R right after D-Day? Can you give me a brief summary how it went down?

Your wife has given her heart to another

Others may disagree with me....But, this is the hardest part. In my book the EA is much worse than the PA side of it.

I am really not trying to be snarky. Why in the world would you want to be with her?

What positives will she bring to your life?

Thinking a little bit more about this question. Maybe this is the reason I welcome for her to talk to me and spend time with me.

For example, while we spent 6 hours together on Sunday I was looking at her and thinking to myself is this really what I want? Maybe I don't know what I really want yet. I do know if I pull the plug right now it is over and there is no going back. I think that is why I am willing to wait it out a bit longer knowing that ending it is always an option.

Maybe I just need to spend a little more time talking and spending time with her to figure out what I really want. Even while knowing she might be playing me.

I think they whole thing started as a mistake and she got played. But you are right where it is now is a deliberate choice. I do deserve better. I guess I am loyal to a fault.

She absolutely did not get played. She entered into a relationship with her new boyfriend will full awareness of what she was doing.

Call it whatever you want but she was not and is not some patsy in all of this.

...while we spent 6 hours together on Sunday I was looking at her and thinking to myself is this really what I want? Maybe I don't know what I really want yet...Maybe I just need to spend a little more time talking and spending time with her to figure out what I really want. Even while knowing she might be playing me.

Well, fair enough, but perhaps discussing some of the important and salient points with her would help you to get a better picture of who she is, and whether you want that person in your life. I know you know this, but tomorrow night you will not be two teenagers on a date. You are two fully grown adults, who were and still are married, though one of the team made a conscious, considered, and deliberate decision to abandon the other. You can make unthreatening small-talk all evening, but real insight is not going to come from that. It is in the tough issues where her character will truly show.

In saying this, I probably sound totally unsympathetic, and I really am not like that. Quite the opposite; you did nothing at all that justified your wife dropping this bomb on you. But drop it she did, and she is not stupid. A lot of this seems quite calculated.

In fact, the one thing that seems significant by its absence is any emotional 'presence' or input from your wife. Has she shown anything close to even a little remorse for hat she did to you? You say that she has stopped blaming you for her decision to start an affair with her boss - I phrase it that way to highlight how ridiculous that notion is - but has she shown any signs of taking responsibility for her own actions, and the pain they have caused? There is no intimation of this in your thread.

In fact, she seems to feel so little guilt, remorse, or even emotion of any kind that she feels perfectly comfortable to show up and have the pained man she betrayed spend hours working on her car as if there is no reason for anyone to have any hard feelings. Does that not strike you as a little peculiar or heartless? Why is she so happy and comfortable about dropping by and acting like you are pals? Anyone in her position, with a brain and an iota of conscience, would know how much she has hurt you, even if she is happily deluding herself that it is all your fault and you forced her into the affair. And yet she feels fine about herself and what she has done, and can look you in the eye with no problems. There is something about her attitude that seems almost unnaturally detached from the actual situation.

Yes, she knows [the countersuit] is coming. She said when she gets it she will also talk to her lawyer about the R agreement our state has (it legally puts the D on hold until one of us wants to move forward or withdraw the D) She didn't say if she would sign it or not though wants to talk to lawyer first.

Sorry, I am not making this about me, but there is something quite emotionally detached and dispassionate about her approach. She has to talk to her lawyer and get legal advice before she decides whether to sign the divorce papers or not? Does she not have an actual opinion based on her own feelings; it has to come down to legal advice about what the best options are for her? That seems incredibly cold. So if she says she isn't going to sign - and posters here have already said that she would have to pay out to you - it will not be because of her feelings or any commitment to the marriage, but because a lawyer told her it is the most legally or financially advantageous thing for her to do? Where is the heart in choosing divorce or reconciliation based on a lawyer's advice?

Seriously, you say you think she made a mistake and got played, but nothing about her actions has the word 'sucker' written across it. 'Carefully thought through' is more like it, with a strange absence of emotion.

You are an emotional and loving guy, but you really must be careful not to project your feelings onto her. What keeps coming across from her actions is detached calculation. Heart and love seem totally absent. That is why I, and several others here, think you should be on your guard, and not read anything into her actions that is not really there.

It is in her interests to keep you friendly, so you don't inform their HR, and so that if you do end up divorcing, you do not engage a bulldog of a lawyer and take her to the cleaners. I'm sorry to keep bringing these kinds of things up, I wish with all my heart that she was actually being 'nice' for the right reasons, but she is displaying precious little heart and and awful lot of calculation here.

It is advantageous for her to not have you as an active enemy, because you could totally rock her and her manager's world. The fact that she is actively lying about that relationship indicates that she knows how vulnerable it makes both of them. So she has good reasons to try and keep you as benign and friendly as possible, to save her and the OM's career, and to ensure you will agree to an amicable divorce rather than an aggressive one that will mean her paying out more to you.

You're a nice guy, and you are thinking with your heart. She is thinking with her head. As painful as it is, please bear that in mind. And please protect your interests; if it comes to divorce, get yourself a bulldog of a lawyer, not a pussycat. You must be careful not to get sweet-talked out of what is rightfully yours.

[This message edited by M1965 at 4:28 PM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

MH2 , I gave her a chance to prove herself right after DDay . At the confrontation(you can read my story) I told her to get the F out! She knew was serious and begged me to giive her another chance . We talked and she was willing to do whatever it took to "make things right" as if that were possible. Lots of IC and some MC, but I didnt feel it was that effective. Other than some TT about the affair, she didnt contact the AP after DDay except to end it (if she is to be believed) .

After I found this place I got great advice and called the OBS , got more information, etc.Since then my wife has been working her ass off in R , answered all of my questions , showed empathy , bought into the R process, the whole thing. It has been a struggle at times and thought many times of walking away, but didnt . Had to draw the hard line in the sand . My wife offered up all her passwords without any fuss, deleted her facebook account and to this day stayed off social media.

Without my wifes dedication to be all in for our marriage and putting my healing above her own , it wouldnt have worked. I told her the other day that if it ever happened again, that I would file for divorce without question. She understood and agreed.

[This message edited by 1survivor at 2:35 PM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

You can make unthreatening small-talk all evening, but real insight is not going to come from that. It is in the tough issues where her character will truly show.

You are right....I guess it is quite telling that any time I bring up the tough issues she kinda go stone face about it. Not really committal either way.

Has she shown anything close to even a little remorse for that she did to you?

I think so at least a little. About a month she said that a reason she couldn't bring herself to comeback yet is she can't forgive herself for having the A.

In fact, she seems to feel so little guilt, remorse, or even emotion of any kind that she feels perfectly comfortable to show up and have the pained man she betrayed spend hours working on her car as if there is no reason for anyone to have any hard feelings.

I really do think she has a ton of guilt about having an A.

It is in her interests to keep you friendly, so you don't inform their HR, and so that if you do end up divorcing, you do not engage a bulldog of a lawyer and take her to the cleaners. I'm sorry to keep bringing these kinds of things up, I wish with all my heart that she was actually being 'nice' for the right reasons, but she is displaying precious little heart and and awful lot of calculation here.

Not that it makes all that much difference though; he isn't her manager just a guy in a different department that is one level higher than her.

Per my legal advice it was in my best interest not to inform HR because if my wife lost her job I might have to pay her support instead of getting support from her.

You're a nice guy, and you are thinking with your heart. She is thinking with her head. As painful as it is, please bear that in mind. And please protect your interests; if it comes to divorce, get yourself a bulldog of a lawyer, not a pussycat. You must be careful not to get sweet-talked out of what is rightfully yours.

I am thinking with my heart when it comes to my marriage. But when it comes to the legal side I'm thinking with my brain not my heart. In fact I think I will be one the to come out ahead if it does go to D because she will just want to be done with it.

1survivor,

Thanks for sharing. That is how I thought D-day was going to go. How wrong I was.

I know your legal advice is to not tell her HR so you don't have to pay support if she gets fired.....

Makes 100% sense IF you were actively pursuing and wanting a D.

BUT....you have consistently said you want R....are almost desperate for the chance.....

If that is the case, then the A, POSOM, and (unless the scumbag leaves the company) her job HAVE to go.

As a superior in the company, AND if he has been extending her any preferences as your posts suggest......POSOM will run as far and fast from your WW as he can if you expose this to HR in order to try to save his job.....and that would still probably not save him.

If you are absolutely sure you want a shot at R.....crushing the A and the POSOM by exposing to HR is absolutely necessary.

Trying to 'nice' her back is not going to work as long as POSOM can freely interfere without fear of consequences.

EXPOSE the A to her job!!!

But ONLY if you are 100% sure you want to try to R.

Missing…

Allowing herself to have an affair (and yes – it IS a decision), carrying it through, separating, spending 5 months plus with all actions indicating she wants out, telling you she wants out, filing for divorce, moving in with OM (even if that is possibly over) …

That is not a “mistake”.

It might be that with time she realizes it was all bad decisions or that she wants something other than what those decisions brought her. But these actions cannot be minimized as “a mistake”.

I’m not writing this to make what’s going on any harder. It’s hard enough already. But you BOTH need to realize the scope and seriousness of what is going on, even if it’s only to learn from it. IF (and that is a very big IF) you reconcile this becomes even more important.

Think of it this way. Imagine you reach for your shotgun and it goes off, you feel and hear the blast and there is a great big hole in the floor. You realize that you left it loaded with a shell in the barrel and the safety off. It’s only pure luck you didn’t kill anyone or shoot your leg off.

Would that have been a “mistake”? Or would it have been the consequence of a series of bad decisions. Decisions like not emptying the chamber, not unloading the magazine and not using the safety. If you don’t take this seriously, constantly aware of what happened and how to prevent that happening then maybe next time you reach for your shotgun you aren’t so lucky.

Remember when I told you about the person walking beside you that punches then apologizes?

That’s your wife. From what you have shared she’s told you numerous ways and numerous times she does not want to be married. Now she might be showing behavior that MIGHT indicate something else, or it MIGHT be her way of easing her conscience…

I still think you should push for answers and disengage if the answers aren’t clear.

Thanks Bigger,

I like the way you put that. I guess a mistake isn't the right way to state why she is having a A.

How does this sound? She wasn't necessarily looking for an A but liked the attention and made the poor choice to see what would happen.

I do plan to push for some answers sometime soon though. I can't live in limbo forever.

keep the advice coming:-)