SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

However, a big shift needs to be believing what people SHOW us.

I think this is a large factor. I agree that narcs are on a spectrum, and doubly agree that those of us here dealing with this stuff have a higher occurrence of being at the mercy of one of these who fall on the spectrum...but if a narc doesn't want to be diagnosed, they won't be. That takes identifying a problem with themselves (GOOD LUCK!), visiting a psychological professional (typically on their own accord, ALSO GOOD LUCK!), and then revealing their true nature in some capacity. Some people, not just narcs, are really good at hiding their dark sides. I'm also skeptical of studies done on the number of unfaithful spouses which are based on self-reporting.

"We are living in a society where the sin that once snuck secretly down the back alley, now struts proudly down Main Street"

I'm willing to bet that this is an argument made every generation and that historically sins were embraced in certain ways in certain circles, BUT, all that said, I do personally see this as a modern problem. To me, it seems like there has always been a force "larger than ourselves" which mitigated such very human behaviors, be it religious- or state-based or otherwise. Now, it seems like a lot of people have a "what can you do for me" mentality, meeting immediate needs at whatever the cost. Maybe we lost our sense of discipline? Who knows.

With the wealthy, they can more than afford to pay that fine.

I'd say that this mentality can be applied to a cheating spouse who's got options. Applying it to my ex-wife, she has a well-paying job, no kids, and an AP who undoubtedly told her all those nice special puppy dog things she wanted to hear. She could *afford to* cheat and then dump my ass. Yeah, she was floored when I grew a pair and actually, GASP, went after my share of our assets. Even the 25% I got was still too much for her liking. Still, deep down she thought she could afford to shitcan me for "greener pastures" and so she did. People who don't have options, people who don't have self esteem, or people who lack something along those lines are forced to take a longer look at their relationship and themselves and actually try to salvage things.

As for my ex...I think she's on the spectrum, but not a full blown narc. It's easy for me to write her off as the cold, calculating, expressionless monster she became on DDay, sure. And she has *absolutely* exhibited narc tendencies over the course of a decade--I've listed most of them here again and again. But somewhere in there might be a semi-half decent person with some godawful coping mechanisms who's doing her best, I'll give her that much. But calling her a "narc" is a nice shorthand label that sums up her history of bullshit pretty accurately if you're familiar with the behavioral patterns, so while she may not be diagnosed, in my mind she's probably diagnosable to some degree, so I don't see an issue throwing that term out there.

Cluster B personality disordered people are all over in society

It's funny (but not funny) that it took being married to one of these people to start seeing them everywhere. I always knew my father was a giant narc, and an all-around piece of shit for that matter, but I never gave it much thought. After the divorce, I could see it so clearly. His flavor was a thieving, verbally abusive, semi-alcholic victim complex narc cheater. One acquaintance, another narc, I watched for 20 years make one selfish decision after another, cheat on every single girlfriend, and generally disregard every helpful person in his life as he spiraled into alcoholism. A woman I'd met after DDay through a different support forum is diagnosed depressed but very clearly a textbook BPD, checks 7 of 9 boxes.

These people are all around us. Being aware of them kind of makes you cautious about *your own* bullshit.

[This message edited by AbandonedGuy at 2:26 PM, June 21st (Friday)]

Not all cheaters are narcs. Being a selfish immature asshole doesn’t mean they are a narc. It just means that are selfish and immature.

I think that labels are thrown around here often and are not diagnosed labels. It’s assumes but we aren’t psychiatrists here on si.

Cluster B includes other PDs besides NPD. Of that 14% cluster b, how many are NPD?

Geeze, they're selfish freaking cheaters. How is calling them npd offensive?)

As someone who grew up with a NPD mother, it is offensive to me because it trivializes the pathology. True NPDs are extremely dangerous. OTOH, all people have narc traits, and most are not dangerous. Labels matter.

I think that labels are thrown around here often and are not diagnosed labels. It’s assumes but we aren’t psychiatrists here on si.

We are not filling out their insurance forms, so label away! You know the person irl, so I trust your judgment.

45 million in the U.S. alone is a whole lotta disorder for us all to deal with.

Labels matter.

I also have an npd mother.

People are allowed to judge those they know as they see fit.

Also, it is not a diagnosed pathology but a hidden one. So only those who know the person can decide how problematic they really are. Most cluster b get no medical help. Ever.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:44 PM, June 21st (Friday)]

Cluster B includes other PDs besides NPD. Of that 14% cluster b, how many are NPD?

2-3%, IIRC. However, I think we're splitting hairs between narc/anti-social/borderline.. All of them have similar presentations in society (f**ked up people) and make for equally poor partners.

True NPDs are extremely dangerous.

Yes. I don't even consider them to be human beings, because you cannot interact with them as you would an average human being. You have to treat them like the deadly predators that they are and tread accordingly. The damage that they do is truly shocking.

Agree with Heph, Narcissism is the mental illness du jour. I think because we equate the traits of selfishness, entitlement and self-absorption with narcissism (as we should) and we see those traits more and more lately due to constant social media presence. If I had a dollar for every selfie I see posted across all of the platforms by acquaintances and even some friends, I would be a very rich woman.

Also agree with RIO, it can be difficult to differentiate between different Cluster B disorders. And often people with these disorders have comorbid mood disorders like depression, anxiety and even bipolar disorder that can mask the PD.

And PDs can be misdiagnosed as mood disorders. I’ve read and listened to psychologists talk about how often people with BPD are initially diagnosed as bipolar.

Not to mention the different PDs can often present differently by gender. It is common for men to be diagnosed as narcissistic and women to be diagnosed histrionic or BPD. But there are people of both genders who fall into categories, they just present differently. The members of the psych community are human too, and I often see a knee jerk reaction where if a male is acting selfish/entitled he is automatically put in the NPD column, whereas a female with the same traits is auto filtered into BPD. The distinctions are small, but important.

And everyone is right, it doesn’t help that most Cluster Bs don’t see our help for their PD. I believe the ones who do get help are often there because an addiction or other major life event has forced them into IC or 12 step. And even then they have to get their head out of their ass long enough to realize that they have some accountability for all of the things that are going wrong in their life before any positive steps can be taken toward real and lasting change.

People are allowed to judge those they know as they see fit.

Absolutely. And, I am allowed to disagree.

Thanks, RIO. That puts it on better perspective. Bit, yeah, at the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter much witch PD you are dealing with. It does, however, matter whether or not you are dealing with a PD in the 1st place.

Good points, HHADL. I saw firsthand one psychiatrist rediagnosing almost every female patient he had as BPD. It was bizarre. I was not one of them, btw.

>>>>What exactly is the benefit of telling people on SI not to call people npd? How is it helpful?<<<<

If someone truly suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (or some other personality disorder), then applying the label may not be a problem. If the diagnosis is correct, then it can be very helpful in understanding why someone (such as an unfaithful spouse) has been behaving so strangely.

As I see it, a big problem can arise when labels (such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder) are applied inaccurately or loosely. When two people are in conflict, it is often very tempting to see the other person as fundamentally flawed. Especially when the conflict is intense, it is easy to view the other person as irrational and/or evil rather than a decent, reasonable (but perhaps mistaken) human being. If in the middle of a conflict with someone, you quickly throw up your hands because the other person is a “narcissist” then it can prevent you from understanding the problem from the other person’s perspective. If the other person’s behavior is pathological, why bother? That unwillingness to empathize (who among us can look at the world with the eyes of someone with a disordered mind?) makes it more difficult (perhaps impossible) to resolve conflicts especially when the conflict is intense.

The other reason to be cautious about labelling people with a personality disorder is that we could be pathologizing what is, in fact, normal behavior. The label “personality disorder” can quickly become a catchall to describe any behavior we find suspect or unattractive.

Recently on www.survivinginfidelity.com a poster made the (unsupported) claim that “most people who post on www.survivinginfidelity.com are codependents”. There is the obvious problem of whether a well-trained psychologist or sociologist might be able to (a) complete an accurate diagnosis of each of the dozens (hundreds?) of people who frequently post on the website and then (b) determine the proportion of codependent posters to the total number of posters. The bigger problem is that the definition of “codependent” has obviously become so overly broad that the term captures almost everyone. It is simply a catchall category that has lost any real meaning. Behavior that might be categorized as “codependent” is simply a description of the way that ordinary human beings respond to other ordinary human beings. Similarly, the label "narcissist" can be applied to a person who is simply doing what all human beings do.

If the only tool on your belt is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.

Labels can sometimes obscure more than they reveal.

Very well put, Heph.

Sandra L. Brown, founder of the Institute for Relational Harm Reduction and Public Pathology Education, describes in her article, 60 Million Persons in the U.S. Negatively Affected by Someone Else’s Pathology, how she arrived at this staggering figure:

“There are 304 million persons in the U.S. One in 25 people will have the disorders associated with ‘no conscience’ which include anti-social personality disorder, sociopath, and psychopath. Three hundred and four million divided by 25 = 12.16 million people with no conscience.

Each anti-social/psychopath will have approximately five partners who will be negatively affected by their pathology = 60.8 million people!”

That's a lot of victims, and many will end up here on SI. Shouldn't we support them? I mean, you don't actually know the waywards the posters speak of, so why spend so much energy telling posters they are wrong? How would you know?

Perhaps the most difficult part of being betrayed is dealing with the emotional fallout. However, it is also enormously difficult to make sense of the betrayal (cognitively, intellectually) while simultaneously coping with the trauma. The effort to understand an unfaithful spouse's affair inevitably leads to questions about the mental health of the unfaithful spouse. Common forms of irresponsibility and selfishness can appear magnified. In the emotionally chaotic climate following the discovery of an affair, it is difficult to distinguish ordinary selfishness from a deeper pathology.

I get the grasping at straws mentality you're describing when a BS has had their world blown up. We look for anything that may help us comprehend the incomprehensible.

But for me it put a label, a name, an explanation to aspects of my WH's personality that I always knew was off. When I began reading about what narcissism is, what it entails, and the tactics used by them against their partners it brought sense. It was like taking a giant jigsaw puzzle and finally being able to put the pieces together.

I was able to begin to see that the things I had experienced, seen and heard were all very characteristic of a narc. It made me see and understand gas lighting that went on. The phases of devaluing, and discarding being explained had me nodding in acknowledgement of painful phases I had been enduring in my marriage. Why I became nothing as I was replaced by the shiny new toy. The hostility. Indifference. Disrespect. It all began to make sense which to someone on the receiving end of a narc and their bullshit, is a bittersweet validation.

No, we're not crazy. We're not worthless. We have value. We've been used. We were fed lies as a steady diet. When everything blows up our narc cannot face it. They cannot admit they screwed up. There is no empathy.

I do think it is more common and I blame social media as a main culprit. I honestly thought it wouldn't take off because people are so wrapped up in their own lives who is really going to care what someone had for dinner. What their location is. But what do I know. Just the opposite happened. It spawned a new level of narcissism. The look at me, my fake perfect life, my extravagant vacations, and so on.

Social media is a narcissists wet dream. It's all them all the time. A limitless platform. I don't think my WH would ever give it up. His face in buried in FB constantly. I think it made the narcissism worse by having ego kibbles a plenty. Every "like" being another kibble. To them it's intoxicating.

“There are 304 million persons in the U.S. One in 25 people will have the disorders associated with ‘no conscience’ which include anti-social personality disorder, sociopath, and psychopath. Three hundred and four million divided by 25 = 12.16 million people with no conscience.

And when someone admits, after almost 30 years, "I have no conscience, and I have known that since I was a kid," you tend to believe them. Put that puzzle piece with all the other intensely researched psychopathy puzzle pieces, and it paints quite the horrifying picture. No formal diagnosis needed. I KNOW what I'm dealing with, and that is enough for me to plan accordingly. A label isn't necessary when you have intimate knowledge of exact behaviors. It is the behaviors you need to protect yourself from when dealing with these types, not the label.

I would never presume to "diagnose" or "label" someone I don't know or have ever met. That's not my place. All I can do is share my experiences. If they help shed light for someone else experiencing something similar, that's great. No one knows the behavioral problems in a situation better than those living it.

And statistics are all good a fine, but they don't mean much to someone in the thick of dealing with an asshole, garden variety or personality disordered.

>>>>And statistics are all good a fine, but they don't mean much to someone in the thick of dealing with an asshole, garden variety or personality disordered.<<<<

Too true. Discussions of the prevalence of narcissism, the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, the prevalence of infidelity, etc seem entirely irrelevant when you are in the eye of the hurricane. However, we may still be forced to make important decisions at a time of greatly diminished capacity. One such important decision is whether your unfaithful spouse falls on the spectrum from (1) a basically decent person who has made a huge "mistake" and (2) an irredeemable monster.

Oin. i Can’t agree with you. If our partners are so messed up that we believe they are true narcs and not getting themselves diagnosed, why is anyone sticking around. It’s not up to anyone else other that the person to find out what their diagnosis is or isn’t. It isn’t our job to fix and it is not our responsibility either. If you don’t have a partner willing to look into a diagnosis when you have concerns about their behaviours, I would leave.

I don’t believe in statistics. There are too many people in this work and in each country to have to evaluate for any statistic to be true or relevant imho. So spouting statistics mean zero to me. Just that those people who were interviewed only

I think it’s wrong and unhelpful to label someone when you aren’t a professional and having someone in your family doesn’t make you a professional. And there are too many traits that overlap in other personality disorders to properly make that diagnosis if you aren’t a professional.

I believe at one point you told me I was co-dependent and I am a long way from being that.

No one has to agree with me but I am allowed to voice my opinion. Leave the diagnosis to the professionals is my opinion. My wh has some traits of npd and he isn’t. He has general anxiety disorder but is also selfish and immature He was diagnosed by a professional and is on proper medication to help him. If you or someone you love has a suspected personality disorder and won’t get treated, that’s on them to fix. You can’t fix anyone else but yourself.

you don't actually know the waywards the posters speak of, so why spend so much energy telling posters they are wrong?

You are absolutely correct that we usually don't know the people who are being described. We can only go by the description given. Expressing my opinion based on that info and my knowledge and experience is not the same as telling someone she is wrong. I don't spend my energy telling others they are wrong. I don't think I have told someone on here that she is wrong. I have said things like, "That doesn't sound like this to me."

I, otoh, have been yelled at and mocked for expressing my opinion. I have been told that I am wrong about my sitch when I haven't even shared any info about it without providing any factual info on why I am wrong.

My question is, why do some people (not you, OIN) get so defensive about their opinions? It's like people don't know how to disagree anymore.

You are providing stats about all cluster b PDs combined and about PDs with no conscience. We are talking about narcissism, which is one of 4 cluster b PDs. So, for simplicity, let's say that the 4 cluster b PDs each make up an equal portion of that 14%. That means that only 3.5% of the population has NPD. 3.5% of the world population may be a big number, but it's still a very small percentage, making NPD rare.

Other people do what they do because of the kind of person they are. I do what I do because of my circumstances. Other people's behavior is due to their personality whereas my behavior is subject to external factors (such as the situation that I find myself in or social and environmental forces).

Other people are primarily responsible for their behavior. Their behavior is freely chosen and is motivated by internal forces. I am less responsible for my behavior because it is influenced by so many outside factors. My behavior is externally regulated.

The fundamental attribution error in action? My wife cheated on me because she is defective (probably a narcissist) whereas I cheated on my wife not because of a character flaw but because I was reacting to my wife's deplorable behavior.

The fundamental attribution error (correspondence bias).

When I google what percentage of people have npd, a big 1% showed up. Of course it’s google and not reliable but it’s an example of why stats mean nothing.