SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think it's ethical, but at the same time, I don't know how to relax into a marriage if I had to think of my back-up plan regularly. That's where I think you have a strong point on being all-in. If the new marriage is going to be a source of satisfaction in life, surely it can't feel like "it works for now". Or maybe I'm still a dumb romantic even after all this where I'd want to assume "forever" and enjoy that feeling.

I dunno, Dee. I think maybe it comes down to a new sense of independence??? I don't know about other people, hence the thread... but for me, I can never go back to the emotional dependence I once had on my fWH. I don't know if it makes sense, but my internal mechanism just doesn't roll that way anymore. That would be the same for financial dependence. In order for me to break down the trauma, I had to really invest in ME and I had to let go of any kind of possessive love that I had for my fWH. It sounds weird, I know, and maybe I'll expound more on it tomorrow, but just life the naive, innocent trust is gone, so too is my comfort with any kind of real dependence. Now, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't let my fWH help me if I had surgery or that sort of thing. It doesn't mean that I can't be emotionally open and vulnerable. It DOES mean though that I'm never going to be truly reliant if I can help it. Maybe that's the "scar" that people talk about???

Also, I just don't know how we could expect any BS to really *know* how committed they can be in a reconciliation until a number of years have passed. I mean a number. A good number. There are lots of cases we're all familiar with here no SI where I think we can safely say things look pretty decent from the outside, and the BS feels ambivalent, and the jury's still out and is going to be out arguing in a back room "12 Angry Men" style for a good long while.

Absolutely, hence my inability to be a candidate for R. I don't have it in me and I know it.

the naive, innocent trust is gone, so too is my comfort with any kind of real dependence. Now, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't let my fWH help me if I had surgery or that sort of thing. It doesn't mean that I can't be emotionally open and vulnerable. It DOES mean though that I'm never going to be truly reliant if I can help it. Maybe that's the "scar" that people talk about???

Sounds like we're saying the same thing from slightly different angles. To me, this really means a BS is not going to be "all in" after infidelity, when we probably could go "all in" with a new person more than we could ever with our WS. Would you agree?

At the same time, I grok your "never gonna be that dependent again." I was "all in" with my WW. I just can't get back to that place, and I'm not entirely sure I could with any other woman either.

I dunno, Dee. I think maybe it comes down to a new sense of independence??? I don't know about other people, hence the thread... but for me, I can never go back to the emotional dependence I once had on my fWH. I don't know if it makes sense, but my internal mechanism just doesn't roll that way anymore. That would be the same for financial dependence. In order for me to break down the trauma, I had to really invest in ME and I had to let go of any kind of possessive love that I had for my fWH. It sounds weird, I know, and maybe I'll expound more on it tomorrow, but just life the naive, innocent trust is gone, so too is my comfort with any kind of real dependence. Now, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't let my fWH help me if I had surgery or that sort of thing. It doesn't mean that I can't be emotionally open and vulnerable. It DOES mean though that I'm never going to be truly reliant if I can help it. Maybe that's the "scar" that people talk about???

I don't know, maybe it is the scar. I don't know how I'd be in another relationship either, honestly. I was pretty independent in my marriage (was one of his complaints post DDay, lol). I had my own life and emotions and money. I didn't "need" him. I wasn't codependent or unhealthy in my attachment to him. There wasn't anything I needed to fix in that regard. I was perfectly able to leave him both financially and emotionally. But when I was in it, before I knew what it really was, I believed in our marriage. I trusted that it was real. I found comfort in that. I "knew" that we'd be together for the rest of our lives and experience so many things together. I hope that I could feel that again in a relationship, that certainty. That belief in "us" without the caveats of "unless he fucks up". Who knows?

If not, being single kinda rocks too, so I can continue that indefinitely.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 7:31 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

Really. I don't think I can given the set of circumstances I've had to deal with -- to whit, she brought another man, my friend, into my home for planned unprotected sex, she tried almost successfully to convince me I had unfounded paranoia and she would have been perfectly happy to see me unnecessarily medicated in service of her adultery, and after this was revealed she continued to lie about it, then insulted me repeatedly by saying things like I was "sexually immature" because I wouldn't understand she'd had "meaningless sex" in the sanctity of our family home. Etc. Etc. Ad nauseam.

So I'm withholding myself, I don't feel a bit bad about it, and I'm not being cruel about it. I'm certainly not being abusive. Day to day it's fine, my son gets stability, my college-aged daughter gets stability. We get along great. We laugh. We do things together. It's more like having a FWB from my viewpoint. I don't feel there's anything unethical about this. I've been crystal clear with her about it, too.

You're two years behind me, Thumos. I don't think it's particularly reasonable for you to be there yet. But all that stuff in the first paragraph above is never going away. At some point, there has to be acceptance about that. Acceptance for me meant leaving ALL that baggage with my fWH and learning to trust that he's capable of doing better now based on what he has learned from his experience. Acceptance for you might look different. Hell, you might reach acceptance through D. Who knows? Being goal oriented in R though meant that "acceptance" was on my to-do list.

Sounds like we're saying the same thing from slightly different angles. To me, this really means a BS is not going to be "all in" after infidelity, when we probably could go "all in" with a new person more than we could ever with our WS. Would you agree?

For me, it means that I realized my "naive, innocent trust" was stupid.

My naive, stupid trust had failed me. I am better NOW. I don't give trust out without people EARNING it. If I had divorced my WH and taken up with someone new, there's no way I'd have just plunked down my trust like it was a bag of tokens at the county fair. No, my trust has a whole new kind of VALUE, and it is NOT given to everyone. A new beau would have had to prove himself over time, and it wouldn't have mattered how attractive or how earnest he was. I have LEARNED to expect MORE than what I settled for as a teen. #nevergoingback

But when I was in it, before I knew what it really was, I believed in our marriage. I trusted that it was real. I found comfort in that. I "knew" that we'd be together for the rest of our lives and experience so many things together. I hope that I could feel that again in a relationship, that certainty. That belief in "us" without the caveats of "unless he fucks up". Who knows?

See, that sounds sort of romanticized to me at this point in my life. And maybe that's the scar we're talking about, I dunno. I'm in a position to enjoy my fWH, my marriage, my home, but these things don't define me anymore. Can't speculate for anyone else, but maybe in R you've done your grieving for who you thought your WS was? It's not that you don't love them or that you don't care what happens to them. Just the opposite, in fact. But you have had to grieve for them, not too much different than if they had died. You've had to face that emotional separation, being forcibly ripped from your emotional dependence on them. Not sure if that makes sense of not, but our "us" is an everyday choice now. Not something that has to be for the world to keep turning.

See, that sounds sort of romanticized to me at this point in my life. And maybe that's the scar we're talking about, I dunno. I'm in a position to enjoy my fWH, my marriage, my home, but these things don't define me anymore. Can't speculate for anyone else, but maybe in R you've done your grieving for who you thought your WS was? It's not that you don't love them or that you don't care what happens to them. Just the opposite, in fact. But you have had to grieve for them, not too much different than if they had died. You've had to face that emotional separation, being forcibly ripped from your emotional dependence on them. Not sure if that makes sense of not, but our "us" is an everyday choice now. Not something that has to be for the world to keep turning.

It probably is romanticized a bit, ha ha. I like some romance in a relationship. I love that gooey stuff. I think I need a sense of stability where my home life is concerned in order to function. I can't choose each day. I'm built well for being single because I can control a fair amount this way. I'm built well for a marriage as long as I have a belief in it being "for good", and that never meant that I stopped working on it or got lazy about it. I just need a foundation to my life, a home base. It didn't have to involve a spouse, but when I was married he was automatically part of my safe home base. I can face so much in life as long as I have home to..well, come home to. When home itself stopped being my safe place due to infidelity, I was unstable on every level.

Obviously I know that stability is an illusion. I could die at any time. My house could burn down. Something could happen to my kids. I could lose my job and go bankrupt. All manner of horrible things could happen at any moment. I can't live in preparation for terrible possibilities in my home, though. I have to exist with an expectation that home is safe. A day by day marriage would really screw me up after a fairly short amount of time.

This might just be a difference in how we're built psychologically.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 8:45 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

Everyone has their own timeline. What I would be looking for is consistent progress. They'll be fits and starts but both the WS & BS should be moving forward more than static or regressing. I think it's only prudent for the BS to trail the WS in healing. Trust takes time to rebuild through consistent actions. The WS has to fix themselves first so they can show that consistency. If the WS takes 2 years to become a true candidate for R, I wouldn't expect the BS to move to a good candidate themselves for 3-4 years. BS should also have a back up plan. It is central to their healing. Knowing that they will survive one way or another gives them the confidence to hold the WS accountable.

This is a great question and something I've been thinking about a lot. I'm sure I'm going to get slapped for this but I think there has to be a moment where you do "shit or get off the pot" with respect to forgiveness or at least acceptance of the reality of the person you married. In the interest of your own wellbeing and mental health, you can't stay on the rollercoaster. I will never forget and never look at him the same but I don;'t think it is fair for him to not have the expectation of a little peace in his life.

when building something new if that is the intent, you cannot continue holding onto all that catastrophic pain. And let's be clear, I'm not talking about serial cheaters or those who are not remorseful or those continuing to cheat.

I know that I would not like to be defined for the rest of my own life by my very worse moment and action. Hanging that over someone forever and forever is unproductive and if that is what you need to do then divorce. It will hurt you more in the long run and life is too short.

There is no timeframe and no statute of limitations but there certainly should be something that removes the sentence. Either you are going to be married as equal partners or move on knowing it was a dealbreaker. My 2 cents, not saying I'm right, wrong, or whatever, just how I see it. My opinion only.

[This message edited by NorthernMSB at 9:20 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

The A causes permanent damage and has a permanent price. Even if genuine forgiveness and reconciliation are achieved, this is still true. Don't like losing implicit trust? Don't cheat. Don't like giving electronic transparency? Don't cheat. A good R includes a permanent transference of vigilance from the BS to the WS. My wife should tell me if she thinks something might make me anxious, and she does.

Abuse, especially ongoing, shouldn't be tolerated by either spouse. Juts like poor behavior by the BS doesn't excuse the A by the WS, the A doesn't excuse abusive behavior by the BS.

We all get to decide what kind of a life we want. BS, WS, all of us.

I told my WS flat out that I didn't want a life where I was permanently "one up" and he was permanently "one down" and that if we couldn't eventually get to a healthy place then I wouldn't be able to hang in there with him. And I told him that I didn't know if I could get to that point.

He was awful with my triggers and caught up in his own pain and shame so I ended it 6 months after dday. But when I was attempting to put things back together with him I definitely did feel that there had to be an eventual point where we would have a healthy and somewhat balanced relationship or I wouldn't be able to stay in it and be a happy and healthy person. If I felt that 5, 10, 20 years later I would still think less of him for what he did, still didn't really respect or trust him, then what would be the point?

For me, I can't force those things. I can't force myself to trust or love or respect someone. So I think trying to beat myself into a certain attitude in a certain timeframe would be unfair to me and what I need from a relationship.

I also don't know that I could have ever gotten over the cheating and lies, anyway. I didn't get far enough into reconciliation to really get a good idea of that.

Again, what about the people showing up here 15, 20, 40 years later?

You rang?

It's an interesting question but there are so many variables that it seems impossible to answer. How do you count it if the WS takes years to provide what the BS needs to heal? How do you count someone like me who would have told you six months ago that they were fully healed only to discover that they weren't? Is only "real forgiveness" considered "real healing" or is acceptance sufficient?

WSs have to go through the process of achieving true remorse and full transparency at their own pace. BSs, in turn, have to go through their healing process at their own pace. Each individual has to decide for themselves whether they're satisfied with the pace and outcome. Either party can pull the D ripcord if they lose hope.

not worrying about forgiveness. or a timeline. for 3.5 years I thought to myself every single day there is no way this marriage will last. But it did. Simply because some days we just didn't divorce. Yes, we both worked on ourselves and he was contrite. But it happened organically and I would suggest that for others.

and we're great.

I got a lot of comfort from this concept, that there is no statue of limitations, and the "D is always an acceptable response to A" has no expiration. I got it from the Divorce Minister who has a philosophy I very much agree with (and echoed by several on this message board) regarding a hard line on adultery. It is biblically sound that the response of adultery is divorce, and the bible places no time limit on this decision. This is probably an unsettling situation for the truly remorseful WS but it is an unfortunate consequence to the A.

And I agree with other posters, D is always available to either party for any reason, but in my mind the question is "am I sinning for pursuing a D?"

This is the type of example I'm thinking of... My WW had a fling in a beach condo, hanging around the common area, flirting in the pool, monkey-jungle-sex while looking out on the ocean, etc. As a result, beach condos are on my shit-list.

But fast forward 10 years and we now live in a beach community, and I find fWW hanging out in the pool talking to guys without me. It causes a rift. She feels it has been 10 years, I should trust her. I feel she has the burden to accommodate me. Suppose this becomes a pattern, bad feelings come rushing back and it is going to take work to overcome this. I don't know if I can do it.

Because of the A, I feel her insensitivity can lead to me needing to D after all these years, and I will not have sinned.

The A causes permanent damage and has a permanent price. Even if genuine forgiveness and reconciliation are achieved, this is still true. Don't like losing implicit trust? Don't cheat. Don't like giving electronic transparency? Don't cheat.

To this I shout my loudest, heartfelt "Amen!"

HowCouldSheDoIt I will not discuss this from a "sinning" religious viewpoint because that is not my belief but I wonder does your wife have the burden to accommodate you for the rest of her life?

I don't understand how you can achieve an equal partnership at all if this is the case. I am curious.

ChamomileTea I just reread your first post again and maybe it is because I am at a personal crossroads but honestly it rang true what you were describing. I am tired. Tired of holding onto my bitterness and anger at my husband who was a complete dick before, during, and after his cheating. I'm tired of this world we are living in now with so much ugliness and division between people.

I don't think I forgive him as much as what you said, wiped the slate and forgave the debt. He has not in the same place which is problematic. He is stuck in what John Gottman calls "Negative sentiment override" so communication is limited.

There has to be a moment when things are normal again and life is not defined by this shit. It can't be brought up again and again, used to win a point, or place the cheating spouse in a "one down" position for the rest of their life. That would also border on abuse I would think. Yes. Affairs obviously leave a lasting scar and there is never a moment when things are the same but it has to end sometime.

[This message edited by NorthernMSB at 9:33 AM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

I second the motion:

The A causes permanent damage and has a permanent price. Even if genuine forgiveness and reconciliation are achieved, this is still true. Don't like losing implicit trust? Don't cheat. Don't like giving electronic transparency? Don't cheat.

I added the bold

To this I shout my loudest, heartfelt "Amen!"

Here's something I've been thinking about for a long time... what is our responsibility as BS's to achieve real healing when we decide to keep our WS? Should there be some kind of unwritten "statute of limitations" where we either need to shit or get off the pot when it comes to REAL forgiveness, meaning that our WS gets to live a normal life again. Or is cheating a "life sentence" and we can just treat that WS like shit for the rest of the marriage? Once a cheater, always a cheater.. to hell with their remorse.

I think forgiveness should be a given - whether you stay married or not. Forgiveness meaning you give up the desire for causing reciprocal pain or punishment on the WS.

Normal? Well - yes but the "normal" is now different. The spontaneity of a relationship is forever tainted. Note the post about "hanging out at the pool 10 years later - "

The marital relationship is forever changed. There is now a scar or a mended bone one can't see. But the scar in the brain the the times when a bone aches or BS looks at a scar - the memory returns -- It is a life sentence.

The WS has to resign to forever putting Grey Poupon on their 'sandwich' or finally toss in the towel. Not an uncommon thread type here - unfortunately.

Does the WS get to "live life normal" again? Well, Who defines the normal? Well the NEW normal now includes the memory of the marital vow transgression. I doubt any spouse would want that as a "normal."

Rhetorical question: How much does the WS have to give or do to suppress the pain in the BS? Is the pain the BS experiencing when the memory creeps into consciousness worth the benefits of staying with the WS? No pat answer there -

I think most make their decison on "which is the lesser pain-causing choice."

So, Yeah - there is some forgiveness's. And life continues on with the "new normal."

Rant over