SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think Seeking2Forgive said it well. I also agree with ISSF.

If they are truly remorseful, the WS suffers.

Some of my husband's suffering is similar to mine, some is different. Both of our lives changed post-affair, some for the better and some for the worse. Like me, he lost sleep, weight and had suicidal thoughts. He knows he broke me in ways that will never be repaired. He did the same to our marriage, our sex life, our children, our family, his integrity. All of that loss is due to his selfishness and he knows that. He sees how different I am (more cynical, more anxious and more apt to withdraw) and that reminds him of what he did to my sense of safety. He also knows that no matter what he does, we, I and he will never be the same again and that it's going to be constant work to find joy and remain connected.

In a way, he's spent the years since D-day trying to atone for his sins. He's stopped drinking, spends less time thinking about/doing work, travels much less for work, spends more time with family and working on his own mental health. His life has changed drastically, but in ways that have been beneficial to him and us, so I don't think it's suffering. In fact, it pissed me off for a long time that he gets to have the narrative of shitty guy to stand-up guy. Not that I begrudge a change for the better, but because the ONLY reason he changed is because he destroyed MY life first.

However, like ISSF said, I think that the suffering he still goes through is hard in a way I will thankfully never know. Because as a caring person who wants to live in integrity, he has to live with the person he was and the choices he made. Every trigger I have, every situation that causes discomfort, every change in our relationship, is a reminder of his failures as a man, husband and father. That's gotta be rough to wake up to every day. I know I've done nothing but give him grace, so if I walked away tomorrow I know I have always done right by him and our marriage and never betrayed my core values or our vows. He, on the other hand, will never be able to say that.

I've been watching this thread for a while. Debating on responding. I'll try to break it down and gather my thoughts.

How much do they suffer?

Depends on the individual and where they are in their healing process [if they choose the healing route vs victim mentality. And even if they choose victim mentality that in itself is their own perpetual suffering IMHO]

How do their lives change?

That all depends on how the butterfly flaps its wings. All our lives can change in the blink of an eye based on decisions we make. Infidelity is but one of a million influences.

Are they suffering like the BS?

Unless they are a BS they can't suffer like one. But they are suffering. They are broken in their own right and used infidelity as a poor coping skill.

Are they in emotional turmoil like the BS?

They will never be in emotional turmoil like the BS. Their poor coping with their internal emotional turmoil is why they are a WS. They may suffer further emotional turmoil of the fallout concurrent with the BS. But I won't get into a yardstick measuring of pain and the perspective thereof.

They had fun during the A and now they either have their spouse back or are out of the marriage having fun as a single person.
All the while, the BS is left with the devastation of A.
I would love to know what happens to the unfaithful.

Wouldn't we all. And it is quite unique to each of us. BUT when I realized I started to care more about what happens to me as a BS and less with what happens with WH and even lots less LTAP, I realized I was on my healing journey. And at the end of the day, that's the only thing I can control the narrative of. Me and my own healing.

My days of wanting to be a fly on the wall of WH brain or LTAP brain during their journey are fading. That's energy better spent on myself. And that is independent of the state of my marriage [which is quite well these days], WH or LTAP.

I’m pretty confident my whore fucking ex-husband didn’t and doesn’t feel a shred of remorse for how he completely exploded my entire life.

That said, I hope wherever he is now he is suffering because of his actions. I heard through the grapevine that he was going through panic attacks. Kind of like the ones I went through for years, and he made fun of.

They suck, don’t they? Those crazy panic attacks. They kinda feel like you’re gonna have a heart attack, don’t they? I hope it is a heart attack. The world would be a better place if he died.

There’s my two cents, which is two cents more than I would pay to ever come in contact with that piece of shit again.

The WH/WW suffering depends on their level of remorse and WHAT THEY LOST THAT THEY VALUE. It will be different for each one. A WH/WW that moves on to marry the AP may not suffer from the losses of the M, if they can cling onto the new AP. Especially if they kept the friends and family on their side. What have they really lost?

The WH/WW that is a serial cheater, BP, or especially if they are a NARC, do they really suffer from remorse and regret? Probably only for getting caught. The way these people suffer will be from their long term choices of being a shitty person, and really has nothing to do with the BS. It will be one poor choice too many that will cause their suffering. Be it having to live with a now shit partner who they cannot trust, or got themselves into a shit situation b/c affairs are not like regular relationships. Suffer? meh, never enough to even come close to what a BS would feel.

As for the suffering from the affair, I think the truly remorseful WW/WH are probably the few that suffer in a meaningful way, and still not comparable to what a BS feels. Just the torment of know the harm they caused to the ones they love and the marriage they fail.

My thoughts are along the lines of what ISSF said.

My husband has suffered. It’s not the same as my suffering, and it’s not been as acute or traumatic. It’s still painfully evident to me that he doesn’t understand the trauma of having your entire reality shattered, or how much suffering is involved when the person closest to you betrays you, irrevocably changing your life and psyche and relationship forever.

But he has the pain of facing everything that he broke, and the pain of knowing he can’t fix it or go back and change it. He has to live with what he did and the pain that he caused me. He’s had panic attacks and some of the same physical symptoms of extreme stress that I have. Because he’s not really an excuse maker or natural liar, and because he wants to have integrity, it’s painful for him to face what he did.

The last year and a half have been harder on me as a betrayed spouse than they have been on my wayward husband. But I wouldn’t trade places with him in a heartbeat. Over time I think I’d find it much, much harder to live with myself as a betrayer than living with the pain of being betrayed. I mean, sure, mostly I just wish none of this shit had happened, but I do take comfort in knowing I have my own integrity. And I have hope that I can find my own healing and strength despite the pain.

For me, I think as more time passes the suffering has shifted a bit from me to him. Not sure how to explain it exactly. You’d think me staying with him would cause him to suffer less, but it’s not like I’ve been all in on R and he knows it, sees it and feels it. That uncertainty about the future of your relationship has to suck a bit, even though he’s the cause of it. Our relationship has definitely completely changed. He also has to be careful what he says and does because this whole extra layer of betrayal. I fully believe if we divorce, I’ll be the one who is just fine. Not because of finances on anything, I just believe I’m the stronger person. As my strength grows, reliance on him diminishes. He also no longer is heads above me in salary. I moved up quickly, so also a power shift or something on top of everything else? He’s much closer to retirement than me and a divorce would set him back more so than me. I also think this illusion of him being this great guy and such is gone and that’s hard for him as well. He can no longer gaslight me into believing I’m imagining my suspicions or that he has any control over what I do or say or when I do it or say it. (He has recently tried to control when we discuss the A for example, I think misconstrued advice from his therapist)

Now, I say none of that to say he deserves sympathy. He has done this to himself and whatever he feels in no way compares to what he has put me through repeatedly. You also may ask if I’m not all in on R, why stay. Well, I have my reasons, but I’m less than a year out from the last dday so yeah, I won’t be all in on R anytime soon. He also has choices and chooses to stay, I’m sure for his own reasons.

My husband suffered and still does. He still can't believe the choices he made and deals with it everyday.
He is slowly coming to terms with it and is finding a way to forgive himself.

On the other hand, I truly wonder if his AP suffered at all other than losing my husband when he ended the affair. I think that is the only thing that hurt her. I don't think she gives a shit about what it did to her husband or their marriage. But, I will never know. Thankfully we don't live in their lives or have anything to do with either of them. In a way however, she has never tried to contact us so to me, that shows some kind of respect on her part. That, and I would go after her like a rabid dog if she ever did contact us.

The WH/WW suffering depends on their level of remorse and WHAT THEY LOST THAT THEY VALUE. It will be different for each one.

I think this is spot on. If I looked at the suffering as a curve, mine was spiked at the at a 10 level on d day. It gradually came down to a level 2 or 3 which it is now. My Ex at the beginning was probably a 5, but she was convinced that due to the length of our marriage, her history as a great wife and mother, and that she would move heaven and earth going forward would save us, I think kept her suffering from spiking in the beginning.

Of course she had to contend with a husband who for 25 years treated her with respect, now calling her every awful name in the book. I think she, like other WS also have to deal with the fact that a week prior to D Day they had two people who were giving them attention. D Day hits, then they have one that runs for the hills, and the other can't even stand to be in the same room with them. Pretty big come down.

As time went by and she realized that I would never look at her the same, having a sex life that was robust going to nothing for 6 months, and then just being treated like some random woman who a guy used to get his rocks off and who would ask her to leave the room when they were done, a spiked her to an 8. She now realized what Halftime mentioned in losing things of value. We both kind of drifted along so the suffering while there, wasn't as up front as it once was and probably was back to the 5 level.

It wasn't until I told her I wanted a divorce 5 years later that she hit the 10 level. She at that point did lose everything she valued. Her husband, her family, the respect of everyone who knew her and held her in such high regard. Im not sure where her suffering is today, but for damn sure its much higher than mine.

I think that had I not behaved as I did, her suffering would still have been there, it however might have stayed at the 5 level. She did suffer, but like the quote, it definitely intensified as she realized how much she lost.

This might sound awful, but it's my opinion that a WS should suffer. The BS sure does. If true R happens it can't be debilitating, but if you do something heinous like having an affair, you should suffer consequences. That how we learn.

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 5:24 PM, Wednesday, January 19th]

This might sound awful, but it's my opinion that a WS should suffer. The BS sure does. If true R happens it can't be debilitating, but if you do something heinous like having an affair, you should suffer consequences. That how we learn.

In my opinion, no true reconciliation occurs without the WS suffering. I guess because my definition of 'true R' means that nothing was rugswept. No elephants in the room; no turning any blind eyes. It also means that you have a remorseful partner, and again, to me, that means they have EMPATHY.

How could a remorseful spouse not suffer? It contradicts everything in the definition of 'remorseful'. And for the BS who is even considering reconciliation---would you give one ounce of effort if they couldn't feel any of your pain?

[This message edited by jb3199 at 6:08 PM, Wednesday, January 19th]

I know everyone has their own problems they go through, but it's hard for me to imagine that in most cases a WS could ever have the sake pain as a BS.

WWTL - your response hit a note with me re a thread I started a week or so ago.

WRT your WW suffering, showing remorse, trying desperately to fix what she broke, etc - she was reading your posts for two years unbeknownst to you. Clearly, from what you were posting you were not healed, nor did it really look like it was going in that direction. Your posts included an almost an inevitability that this was most likely headed for D.

My thought is that your WW had the opportunity of a lifetime to see your inner most thoughts and act decisively to heal you and the M. Instead, her plodding along at what you consider a level 5, combined with her assumption that time would fix things on its own, was what she considered sufficient.

To me, this is indicative of a a selfish/still wayward mindset, not thinking about the consequence of her inaction, that she could comfortably rest on her laurels of being a great mom snd, prior the the A, a great wife.

These had to be some of the thoughts she held that allowed her to cheat in the first place - even if I somehow get caught WWTL will get over it because I’ve been great for the prior 25 years. The fact that your WW thought you could easily go on your big 25 anniversary trip is also proof positive (I realize that the crappy MC pushed this as well).

She apologized profusely, took all that you gave her, cried her eyes out, begged, etc., but is that sufficient for a wayward who wants R? She read your posts - she knew your mind, but didn’t really act to truly drive R.

Am I off base on this?

I would love to know what happens to the unfaithful.

Why?

Not asking to challenge you, I’ve wondered the same.

I am sure it’s a spread, same as for BS. Some blithely move on to the next relationship, certain that the momentary happiness trumps all.

Others, including visitors to here, have committed suicide when confronted with the void at their center. I’d say that’s about as much as a human can suffer.

So there’s that, we can all claim there are some WS who have suffered more than we have.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 2:58 PM, Sunday, January 23rd]

I've been S for just over 3 years,so my anger and desire for justice are waning. I'm not quite at indifference yet, but I can see it from where I'm parked. I don't hope for her suffering but neither do I hope for her comfort. My STBXWW was never R material as she could not move beyond regret, and this was even further reinforced to me after reading a post here on SI on contrition. Some people just aren't equipped with all of the building blocks to make a fully functional human being, and my STBXWW is one of them.

I don't see my STBXWW more often than once a week for a few moments during exchanges, but even from those glimpses, I can see that life isn't as star spangled awesome as she planned when she was knee deep in the fog. I think the various sources of stress in her life have taken a toll on her health and she seems to be aging rapidly, like one of those video photo-montages of meth addicts. Early on, this would have made me feel a sense of comeuppance, but now I sort of pity her. In fact, I now see only the faint echo of the beautiful woman she once was. Knowing her as I do after nearly three decades together, this is pure misery for her as her physical appearance is where she places her self worth. The irony is that she rejected a faithful man who would have, to quote Yeats, "loved the sorrows of her changing face".

Despite all of this, she cannot bring herself to reconcile her actions to her false sense of self. She has vilified me as most waywards do in order to make herself the real victim and thus justify her actions, but the psychological energy required to maintain this fiction must be enormous and exhausting, like holding two huge magnets apart. It is no way for anyone to live. I think that maybe, just maybe, in those quiet moments when she is alone and briefly looks inward, that yes, she suffers, but not for what she did to me, the kids, or the family, but what she did to herself.

For me, I am moving towards peace and contentment daily, something she will probably never do. I guess this response doesn't really help those of us who have chosen to R, because some suffering would be evidence of some initial progress. But unless it gets to the contrition stage coupled with a deep sense of lifelong gratitude for the gift of R, then it's just animal suffering.

Sometimes I regret the loss of my old life, but as that fictional image of the woman I thought I married continues to fade in my mind, I wonder how I could have ever been attracted to her in the first place. Had the infidelity never occurred, I would still be in an imperfect M, but content as that is my nature. I don't tend to ruminate on what I wish I had. Maybe that's the magical indifference we are all striving for...

Hi dude (love saying this)

My posts were all over the place. I don’t think that it gave her a very good roadmap of what she should be doing as really didn’t know myself. Frankly, she did almost everything she could. Except for a slip of meeting him once for coffee at his insistence, she was no contact. She offered up all of the sex acts they did that we weren’t doing plus more. 3 somes and even willing to set me up with her hot friend who probably would have been down with it. I was 100% certain she was not at risk for another affair. Her biggest fear was me having one, or walking away which I eventually did.

Like I have said many times, I think the die was cast the second time she slept with him as I think I might have gotten over a one time thing. For me it was just a deal breaker what she did, and my over the top response of hurting her by withholding affection made me feel like shit about myself.

The only thing she might have done, and it probably wouldn’t have mattered, was to get back into the shape she was for him and how she was during the affair, short lived as it was. She was in the best shape ever, groomed herself and looked spectacular, and had a spring in her step that never manifested itself again. (Surprised about the spring in her step with all the Anal they did 🥲) I did post about the weight on more than one occasion.

After I found out I asked her if she was screwing her trainer too as he was a good looking guy, and it fit the profile of having an affair with someone outside our circle, and was not a threat to our marrige. At least in her mind. I’m sure they never did, but she dropped him that day. She then proceeded to gain about 15 to 20 pounds which on her frame was a lot. I however went the other way and got into really good shape dropping about 20 pounds but added tons of muscle. I really wanted her to look better for me and was pissed he got her best. I think she tried, but by then the weight was on For a a few years, she went through menopause, and obviously the stress of having a detached husband made it hard for her to drop the weigh. She never did, and still doesn’t look great. She did in retrospect suffer from depression after, and still does now. Not good for maintaining shape

I did have a FWW write me about her theory which was the weight gain was a form of protection. It was explained that a really beautiful women are like a goalie. Guys are firing shots all the time. At the gym, grocery store, school events etc. But in reality a goalie can let a shot go through and you can still win the game. For her she had to be more like an air traffic controller where only perfect mattered. Again, it was explained that by not looking as hot, she was protecting herself from getting hit on. I do think she could have looked good, but still maintained boundaries. Anyway, who knows.

This was really the only thing she could have gotten from my posts that she could have taken action on. And like I said,probably wouldn’t have mattered

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 7:05 PM, Monday, January 24th]

I did have a FWW write me about her theory which was the weight gain was a form of protection. It was explained that a really beautiful women are like a goalie. Guys are firing shots all the time. At the gym, grocery store, school events etc. But in reality a goalie can let a shot go through and you can still win the game. For her she had to be more like an air traffic controller where only perfect mattered. Again, it was explained that by not looking as hot, she was protecting herself from getting hit on. I do think she could have looked good, but still maintained boundaries. Anyway, who knows.

That's sort of a wacky metaphor. First, this is saying essentially that it's understandable and expected that a beautiful wife might cheat occasionally. Because even the best goalie can't stop every shot. Second, it suggests that there is a lower probability of a non-beautiful wife cheating, solely because she has fewer potential suitors making aggressive advances toward her. In other words, the theory is based on the idea that a married woman who is pursued by men other than her husband will understandably let the occasional man inside her.

First, this is saying essentially that it's understandable and expected that a beautiful wife might cheat occasionally. Because even the best goalie can't stop every shot. Second, it suggests that there is a lower probability of a non-beautiful wife cheating, solely because she has fewer potential suitors making aggressive advances toward her. In other words, the theory is based on the idea that a married woman who is pursued by men other than her husband will understandably let the occasional man inside her.

I don’t think this is the case at all. All sorts of factors play into this. I don’t think she ever thought she would cheat, and to this day can’t believe she did. Her OM was a predator that had done this numerous times and was an expert in this. He loved to brag that he could get these housewives to do things they never thought they would. I’m sure not all of them were as attractive as my EX. He could just sense that their was something going on. In my EX case a MLC.

She was like a babe in the woods. Up until then the hitting on was never as blatant as what he did and without the precision that he had. The quote you referenced was just me saying that the weight gain "might" have been a form of self protection. It really wasn’t that effective as she got hit on way more aggressively after we separated, sometimes by husbands of her friends who knew about the cheating. She was now single, and in their minds easy. I am pretty certain in fact very certain she never fell for this as she saw the destruction that infidelity can cause. This was when she wasn’t looking her best.

Like I said, this was the explanation I was given. Who knows. She might have gained the weight anyway due to not working out, menopause, drinking too much wine, and me detaching.

I don’t think any guy with a beautiful wife would ever think an affair is justified. It can happen even if the WS is not attractive. The overriding reason is something they feel is lacking and using an affair to fill that hole

To tie it back, my EX in the end suffered way more than I did as we stand today.

WWTL - thanks for your response. I get what you’re saying, snd that you think she did all that she could. But wasn’t a lot of that simply surface actions?

Your WW read your posts for two years yet never elected to go to IC to help her and help heal the M. Do you think that she must have read on SI that going to IC for a WS was a crucial part of the R process.

She also never researched and suggested going to a marriage counselor who specialized in trauma caused by infidelity.

Do you feel based upon you having been on SI so long after the A that a WS must go to IC, then after intensive IC, MC for the couple could be approached?

When people mention "doing to work to R", a good chunk of that involves the WS going to IC.

How do you feel about this?

The other thing I’ll note is that your WW didn’t really step it up until after you told you you were going to D her at the five year mark post A.

She had also specifically asked you not to out her A to anyone. You were also bothered by the fact that post A her life went on as normal - friends, parties, reputation. Your mind was on the A yet she was living her normal life. All the while she was reading on SI.

These are actions of a WS who still hasn’t gotten it, not truly invested in R, having empathy and healing the BS. It’s more about them.

In retrospect, do you see what I’m talking about or is it simply not so?

indicative of a a selfish/still wayward mindset

It's interesting to me with threads like this (and all threads really) how little input there hardly ever is from a WS, fWS, preWS or whateverWS.

This thread is ALL about the WS, yet we have nary a word from one. At least one who cheated first. Could this lack of input here be "indicative of a a selfish/still wayward mindset"? Or not wanting to trigger someone maybe?

Do the unfaithful suffer?

I guess BS's think so, but who knows?

Apparently BS's on this thread have WS's who were/are on SI?

Would they, could they, shouldn't they have something to say about whether the unfaithful suffer?

in my humble opinion, if a ws gets to stay in the marriage because the other spouse forgave them, then they don't suffer in the least bit. They went out, had their fun, came back to their normal life. it's a win win for them, at least that's how it was for my wife.