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It's a two way street on this one. Both receiving and giving are parts of "sharing" pain.

Sorry perhaps semantics as I was being too literal.

This single item by itself explains essentially all of her behavior front to back. I have shared this insight with my WW, and she agrees. She also agreed to work on removing that block as she thinks about what it means to lead the repair efforts.

Perhaps. I would just be careful though. Her rolling up her metaphoric sleeves and "doing the work" will bring you much more relief than doing her home work for her. Eventually, you may question if the foregoing is genuinely the case or is it an explanation that you provided that happens to tick all the boxes. Addiction explains why they struggle to quit for a person to quit and/or why their behavior is a gross departure from acceptable. But it doesn't explain why a person refuses to acknowledge they have a problem or what they are doing is inappropriate.

I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer or contrarian . I understand how hard it is for her, and frankly any WS for that matter. And I may be assuming things, but I see you as one of the most understanding and gracious BSs I have ever come across. I don't think you are a pushover or weak, but just someone who is making it difficult it more difficult for her to open up. But at the end of the day, like HO related, it is incumbent upon her to fall on the sword.

I'm not trying to dissuade you or push you to take action. I get it because I have been there. I really am rooting for you and hope she does not mess this up.

Apparition, in this case I'm not trying to broaden my WW's individual experiences and motivations to other WSs.

Yes my WW was selfish and made poor choices and had/has shitty boundaries. I know that I'm not to blame for those shitty choices. In attempts at R she has continued to be selfish and make poor choices. Now, it's easy to say, "Oh she is just a shitty person that is selfish and makes poor choices". Sure, and dump her, and once cheater always a cheater. On and on.

That doesn't really help if the goal is to reach a shared understanding. The realization is that there is an underlying failure in the M that was part of the motivation for the A. That SAME underlying failure isn't leading to more As but has been the block in having a real R.

e.

Hi Thisisfine.

I have been on both sides of the fence on this, and I understand how it's hard not to blur certain lines. What you describe above is the process of R, and that's important if you are ready to try and go through the process.

The problem is noone can really tell you when that starts. At first, we are in recovery. Both people managing our own emotions over the event. The WS during recovery has to do what might be looked at best as "hoop jumping".

Hoop Jumping to me is meeting the basic requirements before true internal change has happened. It's the giving your spouse access to your phone, STD panels, the NC, the basic requirements for any further effort to be made.

Your wife has had trouble with getting to those points. Meeting those kinds of requirements are mostly the easier parts of the work. I mean, finding another job is harder, but making the steps to do it, much easier to exhibit. NC can be difficult for some as well, but it's one of those things that can be controlled. You are just getting the hoop jumping done. The harder part, the longer part is the healing/changing. It's complicated, nuanced and is full of all sorts of revelations like what you just describe.

The hardest aspects of the WS work are things that are much harder to control because they are intrinsic to our being. To give too much to the WS before they are on that road can create resentments by the BS that may not be apparent until later. And it may not result in as much struggle within the WS, which is an important part of their own growth.

Why do I point this out? Because until she is meeting all your requirements (and adding to that) and consistently showing she is having a number of her own epiphanies, you aren't ready as a couple for reconciliation, you are still in recovery. I used to think this was semantics. It's not. It's the difference between working on the problems in the individual versus the problems in the relationship (and that can include some of the Pre-A issues)

I understand now how much you want to heal your connection with your wife, how much you want to work on your relationship. I am right there with you, I get it. I desperately love my husband and miss him terribly. But the healing of the relationship is going to be much better moving forward if you let her do a little more work before you put in this kind of effort/mental exercise. It's scary because a lot of WS, including myself take a long time to get to the place that we can acknowledge the things that led us to this place. But without that acknowledgement, you can't build a future.

You love your wife, that's without a doubt what shows through. But, she has just shown you a complete disregard. It would be the most healthy for you to stay detached a bit longer rather than immediately investing yourself back into the results. With my example in my previous post about how it is with our kids, we do those things because we have the bigger picture than they do. They have to figure out their way within our parameters. Learning comes with struggle. It's hard because when infidelity hits I don't think either partner has the big picture because it's far more emotionally complicated than the kids example. When you look at the big picture, it's easy to see you want to R, you love your wife. With that goal in mind, then she needs to earn her way back. If you do too much, you will actually be making this process harder. I see you working on that with making her come up with a plan, but just don't reward that too much she has more to do.

It's not easy to know when to begin that process. It's easier to see what's happening in someone else's situation. In many ways I am giving myself advice here as well.

There are two alternative theories. One that fills most of the holes and is quite negative:

The affair is underground, ongoing, and my wife is continuously lying to me about it.

The other is the one I just introduced. I think the latter is more likely, but I still don't trust my wife and am aware that the former very well may be the hidden reality.

In the mean time, she is rolling up her sleeves and doing some lifting.

Edit to Add:

Hikingout, thanks for the note. I am in IC to help myself with my own issues. Often I come in frustrated and confused about my WW. I explain in more detail in those sessions our interactions, and there was a sort of missing piece. Because we are able to resolve other disagreements, make other major decisions, find shared meaning, etc. The IC is trying to see if we have a pattern with "problems" in general. This was based on reflections of our interactions over the last year and longer. It actually does go back further, but the pain was never so traumatic/impactful to be noticed. Simply put, I was able to process the pain on my own for all events other than the A. I'm not really trying to have a revelation for her. But in understanding many of the needs I gave her, it really is about being able to show understanding of my pain and to help me through it without feeling personally attacked or that everything is going to shit. She has to overcome the fear that my pain will consume her and ruin her life. That's not the case and shouldn't be the case.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 3:20 PM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

TiF, could you explain why your WW doesn't feel comfortable sharing pain with you more? What happened in the past when she tried? What did you do that you think may have made her feel uncomfortable sharing before she chose to have an A?

I think it's FOO related to her mother and father (her mom got sucked into her father's pain, lost herself, had a shit marriage for a while, got divorced, then committed suicide). That said this is a recent line of thinking, so how exactly I might have contributed or perpetuated this is something I have to explore more.

This0Is0Fine, I get that deep down, you really want to recover with your wife. You may be expecting the worst but deep down you are hoping for the best.

I would be extremely careful though, into tying up all of your WW's behavior as part of her story with her mother, as her standing up for her mom etc. I mean, it is a tempting narrative for BOTH of you. It takes some of the blame for your WW's actions away from her current decision-making that she is fully in control of, and puts it on stuff that happened to her in her past. It also makes it easier for you to justify taking her continued bad behavior--'she can't help it her mother...' instead of making tough decisions about the marriage. If you squint hard enough and tilt your head and look at it that way, then you aren't caving in again, you are standing by your wife through bad times as a good husband should!

And...as of right now she still hasn't really done anything. Until she tells you that she has quit her job, you should still suspect that she is still just window dressing. Stepping up and being proactive about doing the easier stuff hoping to get out of the one task you really want to avoid--that's a well-established trick!

And come to think about it, aren't there much better alternatives for your wife to keep her own identity, than forming inappropriate friendships with other men?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:44 PM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

She recognizes she had an A, that it was wrong, and that she won't do it again

This contradicts all of her actions to date. First, she doesn't really thing what she did was that bad compared to others, and told you that more than once.

Second, she not only has argued with you over it but actually has pushed you to the brink of pulling the plug by refusing to cut this OM out of her life, and you STILL have not posted that she has agreed to do that. Forget his friend, she has not cut him off at the hip and you know that unless setting up a date with him is confusing in some way.

And the craziest part is your acceptance that she won't do it again when she hasn't yet stopped doing it at all. It has not ended unless you reject that NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT, NO FRIENDLY BANTER, AND NO DATES. And still to this point she is still not too upset if you divorce.

Now lets say she quits the job. Whats your position going to be when she still talks to him, and if its absolutely not OK, you really think she is going to tell you on her own????

The big question is why she cannot and will not put THIS PARTICULAR guy out her life that she supposedly only kissed and groped after a year of this and getting you to where you are. You seem to be convinced that she is NOT hung up on him but her actions, which are supposed to matter more than words, prove absolutely the opposite.

This is not a 2 x 4. I don't think anyone reading this believes for a minute you are going to divorce her, and that's OK. You might be in wa better place long term if you go back to where you were when you had pretty much accepted it because of how good everything else was in your relationship.

Trying to stop it is just taking your guts out and hurting you over and over and over again. Until she can let this guy go, the job change will not stop it. And if she was willing to do what she should, you would have resolved this months ago.

[This message edited by BeyondRage at 9:52 AM, December 10th (Thursday)]

I have a no contact agreement (work related contact only) on AP and all of AP's close friends. She is looking for a job. She has not so far violated that agreement.

Figuring out this block over sharing pain has nothing to do with changing any of the agreements we already have, or excusing her behavior. It has to do with helping her lose her resistance to these agreements and find, perhaps, a reason to actually go beyond what I have asked for. It was an insight I had that I believe will be useful. I'm allowed to be happy about having it.

It would be asinine to divorce her *right now* when I'm seeing positive progress. I have held my boundaries since delivering the divorce letter.

"This is not a mood. I am not caving again." Is something I remind my WW of on a regular basis. My marriage is still very much hanging by a thread. I am not trying to give the impression that I'm back to accepting an M without R.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 10:50 AM, December 10th (Thursday)]

The big question is why she cannot and will not put THIS PARTICULAR guy out her life that she supposedly only kissed and groped after a year of this and getting you to where you are.

Is that the story? Man I didn’t know that. I thought it was shorter and you had some strong empirical evidence it never got physical. That’s a really hard line to believe if this is what she is saying. Sorry. This is like my wife insisting that after more than six weeks they only had sex one time (when I know for a fact he invited her for sex early in the PA) and NEVER did anything else physical in that whole time period aside from kissing. It’s a dumb story.

The big question is why she cannot and will not put THIS PARTICULAR guy out her life that she supposedly only kissed and groped after a year of this and getting you to where you are. You seem to be convinced that she is NOT hung up on him but her actions, which are supposed to matter more than words, prove absolutely the opposite.

Yes increasingly looks like strong limerence for a man she formed a sexual bond with.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:19 AM, December 10th (Thursday)]

I have strong, empirical evidence (private messages that I did intercept at the beginning between her and AP, text messages between her and her friends, and the eavesdropped conversation) that corroborates her story. I don't have 24/7 body cam footage to show otherwise.

I missed the word grope. That didn't happen.

She did:

-Go on two dinner dates with him

-Walk arm in arm with him

-With his arm around her

-Hold his hand on a taxi ride

-Invite him into her hotel room, which he declined

-Give him a long deep hug, then kiss him, and have him push her away

She admitted to plenty of this without me having any evidence when I asked for the complete timeline. I am confident that this was an EA that lasted about 2 months and did not progress to sex.

Self protection and minimization alone are enough to explain much of her behavior. Breaking NC to set up a coffee date then abort it is tragically damaging to the recovery we had to that point. It's devastating to my trust in her. I allowed her to minimize this at the time more than I meant to. It has no longer been minimized.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:31 AM, December 10th (Thursday)]

I have a no contact agreement (work related contact only) on AP and all of AP's close friends. She is looking for a job. She has not so far violated that agreement

How can you possibly know this?

One of the reasons for a WS to leave a job,when the AP is a coworker,is because NC is impossible,and you can not verify that all contact is work related.

So..seriously. How do you know she hasn't violated that agreement?

Because she says so?

She has proven to be a liar. She has shown..and said..you are not a priority. She isn't even close to "getting it," and hasn't shown remorse.

So why would you believe she hasn't talked to OM about things other than work?

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:34 AM, December 10th (Thursday)]

How can you possibly know this?

One of the reasons for a WS to leave a job,when the AP is a coworker,is because NC is impossible,and you can not verify that all contact is work related.

So..seriously. How do you know she hasn't violated that agreement?

Because she says so?

She has proven to be a liar. She has shown..and said..you are not a priority. She isn't even close to "getting it," and hasn't shown remorse.

So why would you believe she hasn't talked to OM about things other than work?

Well this is just the whole argument about why a job change is so important. I get that. I'm not going to defend my previous position that she could simply go underground even if she switched jobs. Yes, she needs to actually get a new job, not just look for a new job.

Beyond Rage is correct that the job chg won’t change who she is inside and what she wants to do, but my position all along is that getting a new job is one among many outward tangible actions she can take to demonstrate she wants an actual reconciliation. I don’t need to beat a dead horse but staying in the job is just piling disrespect on disrespect

Breaking NC to set up a coffee date then abort it is tragically damaging to the recovery we had to that point. It's devastating to my trust in her.

Forgive me for forgetting but how long ago was the attempt to set up a coffee date? Fairly recent right? To me this indicates limerence, and the did the AP reciprocate? In other words was he down for it? Does his spouse know about the broken NC? Is she okay with them staying in the same company?

A two month affair with nothing but kissing and hugging seems a bit of an outlier but okay. Did she ever do a polygraph? Forgive me if you’ve already addressed this.

We are deep into repeat territory.

No she hasn't done a poly. I don't need one because I am satisfied that they didn't have sex. We can run around this circle as much as you guys want.

Late July was the failed coffee date.

AP initially reached out to my WW.

I haven't told OBS because she never established continued contact with me. I blew my one PM via LinkedIn on giving her the info I had at the beginning because my FB attempt at contact went into her spam most likely.

This0Is0Fine, surely you understand where the skepticism here is coming from.

Your WW just a few weeks ago, was insisting--over your objections--on developing a friendship with another man (bad enough as is)...who happened to be close friends with AP!

Meanwhile I am not sure what you mean as far as your WW getting it. You may have won some concessions from her--she can't be friends with AP's friend after all and she has to leave her job. But how willing is she to do so?

It still sounds to me that you are still the one driving the train to fix your marriage whereas she should be the one doing all she can to be winning you back, truly.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:54 PM, December 10th (Thursday)]

You completely missed my point.

You are so sure she hasn't violated your agreement. My question was..why? And how?

I simply believe it to be the case that she hasn't violated.

It is impossible to prove the negative without 24/7 surveillance.

No she hasn't done a poly. I don't need one because I am satisfied that they didn't have sex. We can run around this circle as much as you guys want.

I didn’t mean to start that up again. Honestly couldn’t remember. I think it’s because the details of what she did are so slippery in this case, and I think that’s because she has made it slippery.

in any case, so her AP wanted to meet her and she was going to go through with it and that’s all recent history. I think with that being so recent and so long after DDAY you’ve got a case of limerence on your hands and the AP certainly doesn’t seem to respect your marriage any more than your WW does.

A renewed instance of breaking NC is renewing the affair. AP wants your WW, and your WW is pining for him. Seems pretty obvious.

And she still doesn’t seem to be trying all that hard in the other direction. Even with the recent “breakthrough.” Seems like just enough to string you along.

I think she spoke more truth when describing you as a lost puppy. Not truth about the way you really are but the way she actually sees you.

It’s sickening. Someone who is dancing around the edges of technicalities with you like this is someone who is still deep in wayward territory whatever her other fine qualities are.

I’m really surprised the OBS has not been told more from you at this stage but I will leave it at that. Don’t you think if OBS knew about the kissing and handholding and dates and renewed interest you would likely see far fewer attempts by the OM to kickstart things again with your wife?

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:25 PM, December 10th (Thursday)]

I didn’t mean to start that up again. Honestly couldn’t remember. I think it’s because the details of what she did are so slippery in this case, and I think that’s because she has made it slippery.

Nope, not slippery. I said new job. She said she would take the poly to prove she didn't have sex if she could keep the job with modified NC. I said OK. She failed to schedule the poly. I obtained solid reviewable evidence in a private drunk conversation (it's less convincing to others here, but very convincing to me). This plus the previous circumstantial but empirical and reviewable evidence is 100% aligned with the information she gave me. At this point I had no reason for the polygraph. No demons bothering me.

in any case, so her AP wanted to meet her and she was going to go through with it and that’s all recent history. I think with that being so recent and so long after DDAY you’ve got a case of limerence on your hands and the AP certainly doesn’t seem to respect your marriage any more than your WW does.

Sure.

A renewed instance of breaking NC is renewing the affair. AP wants your WW, and your WW is pining for him. Seems pretty obvious.

Agree to disagree. I don't totally believe her motivations, but I don't think the *intent* was to do anything sexual or romantic with him. Just say, "I'm glad you and your wife are getting along again. I think I've made a lot of progress in my marriage and I'm glad everything worked out." Why did she do it in secret? Why didn't she tell me? Why was she so sloppy about keeping it secret? These are all mysteries on the inner workings of her mind.

This event, without question, is why I asked for a divorce and why the marriage is unlikely to be repaired.

And she still doesn’t seem to be trying all that hard in the other direction. Even with the recent “breakthrough.” Seems like just enough to string you along.

To be determined. Yes, dragged along with absolute bare minimum of effort is the history.

I think she spoke more truth when describing you as a lost puppy. Not truth about the way you really are but the way she actually sees you.

It’s sickening. Someone who is dancing around the edges of technicalities with you like this is someone who is still deep in wayward territory whatever her other fine qualities are.

Yes, she is still my WW, not my fWW or my XWW.

I’m really surprised the OBS has not been told more from you at this stage but I will leave it at that. Don’t you think if OBS knew about the kissing and handholding and dates and renewed interest you would likely see far fewer attempts by the OM to kickstart things again with your wife?

OBS obviously received an early message from me but has never responded to any further attempts at a dialog. She is clearly all in on rugsweeping, IMO.

TIF

One side effect that is a possible problem in your WW finding or agreeing to actually switch jobs is that she might actually believe that if she does not change her actions and get "all in" that she will be giving up a job she likes, has been promoted at, and be leaping into the unknown with no guarantee that you will not pull the plug because of her behavior and non compliance if it continues. Right now she is NOT committed by her actions to going totally NC with this OM and therefore switching jobs incurs a big risk for her.

Your thought process that she should find a job she will love and with making equal or more compensation is a pipedream. She is not going to know if she will like or love the job before she is in it for some time, and there is nothing in her behavior or attitude that suggests that she is going to be anything but resentful at you forcing her to do this.

I'm not going to defend my previous position that she could simply go underground even if she switched jobs.

You don't need to defend this position but you sure as hell need to figure out what steps you might take to find out if she does take it underground.

You criticize yourself frequently for CAVING on a whole bunch of stuff but one thing you caved on that you should be resurrecting is the polygraph. She agreed to do this and did not and you let it go. How did that work out for you????

Why in your list of MUST haves is her willingness to at some unannounced time not in your demands???? You keep talking about trust rebuilding but how do she do that when she is being dragged by her hair out of the job and still exhibits nothing close to a real understanding of what she has done AFTER d Day to ruin your trust.

Why does she get to set it up. ?? You are totally capable of doing that, so your comment that you would need 24/7 monitoring is not valid. two months after she switches jobs one question of the four will give you an answer about NC very clearly that you can verify. You have totally let her off the hook on this one.

How can you possibly know this?

Hell Fire's comment. You have no way in place to know anything other than what she tells you.

AP initially reached out to my WW.

And your wife was totally receptive. But this is another area having nothing to do with a divorce decision that you have totally CAVED on. This prick OM has gone out of his way to contribute to the destruction of your marriage with no consequences and you are blaming it on his wife rug sweeping.

I believe you stated that if you exposed this affair to their work and what went on that they would both be terminated. How about calling this mother fucker up and telling him that if he does not back off totally on talking to your wife that you are going to blow up his fucking world at work. How about sending by courier a letter to his wife that you are going to do that if he does not stop pursuing your wife.???

Of course that will piss off your wife totally. You afraid of that?? Of course she is the one who was receptive to it but there is no indication that if she switches jobs he still will not pursue her. You had a modified NC agreement in place that she broke repeatedly that could not have occurred if he had backed off, yet you still have referred to him as a good guy for not fucking her when he had the chance. Time to revise that thinking totally. If his employment could be threatened by full disclosure it doesn't cost you a dime to not sit there and let his have any impact on your life with no pushback. You know who he is and you know how to make sure his wife knows everything no matter what her reaction is.

And lastly, you obviously when you refer to that they did not have sex only regard PIV as not having sex unless you actually believe kissing make out sessions (which is sex ), groping ( which is sex) do not qualify. And yes you are correct, I would guess most of the people here find it incredible that what she has done for a year after D Day would be very likely for someone who only her his tongue in her mouth a few times.

Reconciliation has many formats. Your problem is not wanting to do that. It is refusing to add to your list of demands any method of verification.

Quite honestly, if you look back at her actions and behavior you actually caught a huge break with this horrible pandemic. Given her attitude for the past year, where do you think you would be if she had been travelling with him which was supposed to happen in May and seeing him in person daily given the disrespect she showed you talking to him at will with you in the next room.

Well, hopefully the pandemic will subside shortly with vaccines becoming available and unless she stumbles into a new job by luck that she "loves" with more money you have more to deal with with no plan other than taking her word for everything. And quite franking, given her resistance to NC its quite possible her need to talk to him or meet up with him will be more intense. And of course she has an entire cast of girlfriends who more than likely would help her facilitate that.

So just my opinion your biggest danger is a false R because she is being dragged unwillingly into anything positive for your true reconciliation.

And Lord help you if she HATES the new job if she finds one.