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She has not acknowledged that she believes her actions to be lacking.

It's probably because SHE doesn't think they are lacking only you. It's blameshifting and gaslighting.

Also don't be surprised if she does blame the M ending on you. Seems to be the MO for most unremorseful spouses.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 4:19 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

#sorrynotsorry

Her saying the shit or get off the pot line would be like someone coming up and shoving a knife into you and then saying "Jeeze, do you even want to get better? Stop bleeding."

SHE broke this. SHE DID THIS.

Tif IMHO the lack of ANY empathy, compassion, remorse, love, care, respect etc etc etc in that one statement should be enough for you to say fuck this shit. Seriously - her saying that after planning a sex spa anniversary trip on top of allllll the bullshit these last few months just shows a shocking lack of awareness, and a complete tone-deafness to the current state of the M. And YOU can't make her 'get it'. And she clearly doesn't give a shit that she doesn't.

It's probably because SHE doesn't think they are lacking only you. It's blameshifting and gaslighting.

Also don't be surprised if she does blame the M ending on you. Seems to be the MO for most unremorseful spouses.

It's an honest difference of opinion between an unremorseful WW and a BS. I don't see it as dishonest or blame shifting. Just her being who she is.

Tif IMHO the lack of ANY empathy, compassion, remorse, love, care, respect etc etc etc in that one statement should be enough for you to say fuck this shit. Seriously - her saying that after planning a sex spa anniversary trip on top of allllll the bullshit these last few months just shows a shocking lack of awareness, and a complete tone-deafness to the current state of the M. And YOU can't make her 'get it'. And she clearly doesn't give a shit that she doesn't.

I've known what I ought to do rationally since like two months after DDay. I'm just an expert excuse maker, delayer, rationalizer, and high on my own hopium supply.

EDIT: For clarity, it's not a "sex spa". It's a spa at hotel, a fancy dinner, and presumably sex with me if I'm "nice to her".

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:36 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

I'm just an expert excuse maker, delayer, rationalizer, and high on my own hopium supply.

Me too. It sucks. We'll get there.

EDIT: For clarity, it's not a "sex spa". It's a spa at hotel, a fancy dinner, and presumably sex with me if I'm "nice to her"

I think we knew that, or I did. It's nauseating to read those words from her again. Honestly. I understand it was meant as a joke, but also as a dig. I think women in general should stop this kind of thing, but certainly a woman who was actively betraying you and has made every effort to essentially emasculate you (even if unsuccessful) should have the self awareness to realize how toxic saying something like this is.

TiF

I don't know your whole story just what I have read from this thread and here are my thoughts on your situation.

I am picturing your wife as a student and yourself as the college professor. Your students from previous years have left reviews that you are a push over (give into your wife) and will curve the final exam for them (not divorce). You tell your students they have a final exam (marriage) but they don't know the date for the FINAL EXAM (marriage). Your wife (student) is in procrastination mode and expecting a curve to pass the class.

The professor gives the students a study guide (what they need to save the marriage). As well as a student aide to help with studies (MC, and IC). The student (wife) is reading and using these resources but not invested in it because they are expecting a curve on the final exam marriage.

You give your students a pre exam test (Divorce letter). Your student (wife) puts in some last minute work, but cannot crunch in one years worth of class time in 10 minutes before the pre exam. Your student (wife) gets a D on the pre exam but not an F. She is expecting that D to bump up towards a C to pass the class. You tell your students for the first time in many years there will be no curve on the FINAL EXAM.

Student (wife) gets mad and talks to you saying this wasn't in the book, the tutor wasn't helpful, and the professor (you) is not fair in grading.(<===Blameshifting) You ask the student how much effort they have put in and they lie or do a half assed job (break NC, still friends with APs friend, still working in same place, searching halfheartedly for another job). (<===gaslighting). Your student (wife) for some reason is still expecting that curve if she puts in a little effort.

Let your wife know when the FINAL EXAM (Marriage) is by actually filing. This is so she can get invested and stop procrastination and actually read the books, use the tutors, and listen to the professor on how to either pass the class and get reconciliation/marriage or fail. If she is in procrastination mode she will fail the final exam and get a bad grade which leads to Divorce.

[This message edited by BigNoob at 6:30 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

I get that it isn't fully honest and transparent to say, "It's not what I want, but I think divorce is probably the correct path forward." That's the current status though.

I get this statement. I've actually thought this exactly as I've waffled around and struggled. I don't want divorce, but also am beginning to see it as a path forward. Actually not "a path forward", but the only path where I'll ever be safe. Not feel safe, but actually be safe. It's like the "divorce" letter I wrote: it was actually a long list of what I needed WW to do that she is failing to do.

Somehow I think we both may have it wrong. Conflating our 100% emotional readiness to divorce with being honest when saying we are divorcing. Does anyone actually get to 100% emotional readiness? And is it actually "dishonest"? As faithful spouses, we seem to have an entirely different set of standards we hold ourselves for both emotional and practical honesty, and yet (me personally) if WW had 1/2 the same standards I'd be pleased. They selfishly take advantage of our love and integrity, that's what I think.

TiF, I don't think it's a bad idea to wait until January especially because we're talking about two weeks here and not months. Could you call a lawyer now and a make an appointment for January?

I think it's important that you take the first step now though because as we've been over many times - you're the master of excuses and delays. What's to stop you from taking another hit of hopium, making another excuse, or developing a new delay between now and January? Why not just make the appointment and start holding yourself accountable to sticking to the plan? If something big does change, you can always cancel it but at least you'll have a jump start if you call on Monday instead of January 2nd.

I agree with nekonamida. Seeing a lawyer will make it real and tangible. I have a packet from a good lawyer I've been making my way through, and it gave me a good start on developing a to-do list and plan for an exit.

There are a lot of practical things that need to happen and in the midst of a busy holiday season and a demanding job, it's perfectly fine to take nibbles at it.

There are some people on this site who insinuate that staying for the kids or taking a careful and thoughtful approach to divorce somehow means you're procrastinating or not real about it. Others will imply that if, for example, you're waiting for kids to go to college or if you intend to divorce but are still acting in all essentials as normal married couple that you're somehow being inauthentic.

(and no, I don't think that's what nekonamida is implying here).

I disagree entirely with those folks, and I think it's an unfortunate form of shaming and pressure and kind of passive aggressive thought policing that should have no place here.

Staying for the kids is not only legitimate, it's actually a great reason in light of empirical evidence on the impact of divorce on kids (the jury's still out on this). We understand you're torn about this. I know I am. It's fine to not be 100 percent on board with divorce like you're about to get on a party bus.

My attitude is that I want it because I think it will be healthier for me in the long run. That doesn't mean I'm excited about it. And that doesn't mean I need to feel artificial pressure about the timing of it. I only decided in late August and at first was overwhelmed with all of the "king's dilemma" type decisions one must make from a practical nuts and bolts standpoint to carry out a divorce -- at least if you want that divorce to be as painless for your family as possible with as minimal amount of financial and emotional wreckage as possible.

It's okay to think this all through carefully, but take steps in the direction of freedom. Your first was letting her know in no uncertain terms that divorce was on the table. You've now seen where her head is at with that, so time to move.

Ny attitude is that I want it because I think it will be healthier for me in the long run. That doesn't mean I'm excited about it. And that doesn't mean I need to feel artificial pressure about the timing of it. I only decided in late August and at first was overwhelmed with all of the "king's dilemma" type decisions one must make from a practical nuts and bolts standpoint to carry out a divorce -- at least if you want that divorce to be as painless for your family as possible with as minimal amount of financial and emotional wreckage as possible.

First, TIF, please look at your PMs. It's about me, but value your opinion.

Thumos, not to thread jack, but do you have an original thread? I keep getting bits and pieces of your journey and your opinions are very valuable to me - you make great efforts to not just say something, but to explain it. This is appreciated, I'm a person that values explanations and not just statements. Anyhow, I'm interested in your journey and how you arrived at the above clarity.

The best timing and decision to divorce is entirely case to case and upto the individual naturally . I think any advice offered should be assumed to be self referential, people who took a long time to divorce clearly do often wish they hadnt and are probably incapable of hiding the fact .

I wouldnt dismiss the idea of being as authentic as possible , it does set the tone for future interactions whether you stay married or not .

[This message edited by siracha at 10:39 AM, December 20th (Sunday)]

Apparition: start with Thumos’ profile. In one of his posts, look in the upper right hand corner for what looks like an old school Rolodex card with a smiley face on it. Click on that.

Apparition if you go to my profile you will see a link at the top of my story section that goes to a long thread in reconciliation starting last year. That long thread ends with me moving to a new thread in the d/s section starting in August and September of this year.

I'm sure some of you could have called it from a mile away.

On Friday night, she was confrontational and said that if I didn't want to be with her anymore she understood. I told her that what I want is to be with her, for her to meet my needs, and for us to be happy. It just didn't feel like things were going that direction. She asked if she should just cancel the trip. I told her that we deserve a break regardless of whether or not we would be celebrating anything.

She said she loves me [a great deal], and if I don't feel the same way, then we shouldn't be married. I said, "I'm conflicted, and I know that's not the right way to go into an anniversary. I wish I could tell you something better." That's where we left off that night.

In the morning, we had a long talk where we danced around the massive issue about whether or not we should be together. She told me she had already planned a lot of romantic stuff and she was sorry if it was going to seem like too much after our discussion the night before.

We went on our anniversary trip and it was really nice. My WW got me flowers (important callback to a complaint I had), we had a good dinner, and I was nice to her. So much for being able to hold on to the 180. It did feel like something of a "last hurrah".

It seems unlikely we will discuss the obvious direction of our relationship any time before the New Year. If you all can't tell, I am authentically conflicted.

I am authentically conflicted.

I don't blame you I would feel the same way after a trip like that. My STBX used to set up date nights and we would have fun but then he would go right back to acting wayward or just non empathetic in general. Then I would be back to throwing my walls up and detaching.

She will either work towards wanting to repair the M or not. At some point you won't care because you have done this dance before. I really hope she puts in the work.

My join date was 2012 and I just recently separated. I was in limbo for many years until I couldn't take it anymore.

You have to go with your gut.

If you believe she is putting in the effort and you both work at it you can be happy again.

If you're not happy, your gut will tell you.

Limbo is not a good place to be. I would advise against staying in limbo for too long, I does not do your body or soul any good.

I think you will know when/if it is time.

I am authentically conflicted.

If you've been in the middle of a productive, compatible, loving marriage that was good and then it had a radioactive dirty bomb dropped in the middle of it... well, of course you're conflicted.

Stop beating yourself up, thinking you need some kind of 100 percent firm conviction one way or another. I doubt very many people ever get that.

I'm still having sex with my WW. I'm still conflicted. I think about the fallout for my kids and I get physically ill.

After all, we were happily and firmly living in the context of a lifelong commitment ten seconds before DDAY. Our wives had a different frame of mind, but we didn't.

It’s a bit like that scene from The Matrix when Neo is brutally expelled from his amniotic cocoon and realizes he’s been existing as a human battery plugged into a nightmare machine.

It’s that bad.

Who wouldn't feel conflicted about all of this? Perfectly natural, TIF.

Just keep watching her actions, rather than listening to her words.

I know you've probably read this already here at SI, but one of the best pieces of advice I saw was to pretend you're watching a silent movie. How would you judge things based on that?

I know you've probably read this already here at SI, but one of the best pieces of advice I saw was to pretend you're watching a silent movie. How would you judge things based on that?

Honestly, my wife has said some very stupid things when I've lofted her soft balls. I think that this would improve her standing.

Honestly, my wife has said some very stupid things when I've lofted her soft balls.

Mine too. Jaw dropping. Like in cartoons when a character is so stunned their jaw drops onto the floor.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:06 PM, December 21st (Monday)]

Well @This0Is0Fine, what is stopping your wife from doing what you need to feel safe.

You clearly love your wife very much. And if she loves you back as much, then why not her just do what you need to do to feel safe. And then you can stay married. It is not that hard from her end. Have you asked her this?

We have been pushing for you to be "harder" only because your wife has been unwilling to do the work.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:48 PM, December 21st (Monday)]

Christmas, what a day...

Wake up. Open gifts. My WW got me... drum roll please... nothing.

Holy shit. After reaming her for it but on my birthday. She does really good on our anniversary but immediately back to nothing. I should at least give her credit for making my decision easier.

We traveled on the day and we got stranded in Dulles. About to take off now.

More later.