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what specifically would you ask the counselor to figure out their philosophy and whether they will take this into rugsweeping and blame shifting

Try using the 5W + 1H questions back at them.

If the conversation is going towards blaming you for your WWs cheating, you can ask them to clarify why they think that. Then keep asking to clarify their answer to you further. Do the 2yr old trick of replying back 'Why?' when you ask them to do something.

If the IC/MC is clear in their thinking and approach, they will have no problems answering you.

I like TIF’s catch all question which really puts the screws to bad MC’s: “Does duty exist?”

I'm unclear what I'm to expect back from this question. TIFs list of questions all sounded informative to me, but I'm confused about the above.

Apparition, in this context I’d view a WS “duty” as upholding their wedding vows. If the MC can’t even agree to that simple principle, or hedges around it, you’ll have a very clear picture of who you are dealing with.

Sorry to confuse. It’s a bit of an inside joke referring to Immanuel Kant that most counselors will find uncomfortable. Perhaps another way of saying it is to ask whether objective morality exists or not. Are actions right or wrong in and of themselves? Many MC’s will try to wriggle away from any notion of objective morality. It seems like you’re already seeing this with your MC. Just about any wrong action can be rationalized away by silly talk about “the environment” that led to those actions. It’s even more offensive when you had an ostensibly faithful and affectionate marriage.

What I have found helpful is the helping couples heal podcasts (marnie breeker, Duane osterlind, omar minwalla) and related output from them. While they focus on sexual addiction, the guidance on resulting betrayal trauma is relevant and I believe very helpful for anyone on this forum.

If counselors do not have focus on the "partner trauma" they are not going to be helpful. In fact, they (see above) argue that counseling will actually be harmful to the victim if they (counselors) do not understand the impact of betrayal trauma.

[This message edited by DanielJK at 8:20 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

Her continued lies are blatant disrespect for you. Don’t tolerate anymore disrespect in your life. The continued lies make anything resembling what’s left of a marriage to her a complete sham.

That’s why the MC is a waste of time.

Your WW should be willing to crawl across broken glass to keep you. She should be showing you through actions every day that she wants you.

She’s not doing that.

She should be doing everything she can to demonstrate she will be a safe life partner.

She’s not doing that.

She should be moving mountains to show you she has authentic remorse instead of self pitying regrets

She’s not doing that.

You can say you want to be patient and wait for those things.

I can only tell you that waiting nearly guarantees limbo and that you will come to find yourself completely lacking love for her and ready to divorce.

Your body is already deciding this and soon your brain will catch up.

If you want divorce keep allowing things to play out as they are.

If you want to reconcile, then better flip the script and soon.

Thumos is right. There is only one person in your marriage working R.

Specific questions...

'Do you believe an A is the result of M issues or personal issues within the WS?'

If the answer is 'both', a followup could be something like, 'If you had to pick one, which would it be?'

Another: 'My sense is that you're asking me to make allowances for my W's betraying me. What's her responsibility in this?'

Another: 'My goal for MC is ____. Will you help me reach that goal? How?'

*****

Fuck forgiveness. It's not necessary for R. It takes time - it's one of the last steps in healing. Focusing on forgiveness now may very well be a distraction from the work you really need to do.

I understand the idea of forgiving for yourself. In your case, my sense is that you want to forgive because you still think you bear some responsibility for your W's A.

You're testing yourself. I think your energy is likely to be better spent testing your W.

*****

If you R, you will need to recognize and address issue after issue. R morphs into M, and M requires addressing issue after issue.

I think you may need practice addressing issues, so I encourage you to go to at least one more MC session to get your thoughts out in the open.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:31 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

Some other things to think about regarding “the environment”...

1. You thought it was the best of marriages. Is it probable that your conception and your wife’s conception of the marriage are so far apart she needed to cheat, or is it more probable she just wanted to cheat?

2. If “the environment” contributed to adultery, then why didn’t you cheat?

3. If the “the environment” contributed to adultery then why did she do the same thing in her previous marriage to another man? Is she just so unlucky she keeps landing in bad environments that make her a destroyer?

4. “The environment” that existed before is entirely irrelevant because it is gone now. It doesn’t exist. This isn’t a word game. That marriage literally does not exist. If this MC wants to keep his job they need to find a way to help you deal with the betrayal squarely and then build a new relationship. The old relationship shouldn’t even be in the discussion. It’s off the table because it has blown to the four winds.

5. It’s gone. It isn’t coming back. Things can never “be the same” or “go back to the way they were before.” And even if you could, why would your WW want to do that if what you had before contributed to her being a cheater? Wouldn’t she logically want something new?

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:40 AM, December 17th (Thursday)]

I'm unclear what I'm to expect back from this question. TIFs list of questions all sounded informative to me, but I'm confused about the above.

Well it's honestly extremely broad and very telling. It doesn't allow for everything to be relative. If you reject moral relativism, at least within your own life and sphere of influence, it's a very important question. It is a defense against hedonism.

Do you believe duty exists?

Let's say you don't. And doesn't everyone deserve to be happy?

If so, what's wrong with a little affair now and then? Not only did she not owe you faithfulness, she doesn't owe you recompense because there is no duty.

And anything you do, that you don't want to do, but do because you have a duty to do it, becomes an action with an impenetrable motive. A hedonist can't square why you would do something that hurts yourself or another if you do it out of duty. They will believe you are in the wrong.

Consider telling the OBS. Everyone on this forum will tell you you ought to do it. Why? There are many reasons, but I would argue the most valid reason is duty. The OBS is owed the information you have. You have a moral duty to do this, because you believe anyone with the same information ought to do the same. This is the categorical imperative and where Kant comes in.

The hedonist and the relationship builder will say you SHOULDN'T say that. Deception isn't inherently wrong and no one has a duty to behave honestly. "What is gained by the OBS knowing?", "The affair is over anyway, why destroy their family", "If you didn't tell them, they would never find out and be happy". If there is no duty for honesty, if no one is owed agency in their life, affairs can be justified. One step further, the continued deception and denial can be considered the appropriate path to maximize happiness.

So ask yourself. Ask your WW. Ask you MC. Does duty exist?

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 12:19 PM, December 17th (Thursday)]

Apparition, I am so sorry. I know how you feel. My 1st DDay was 14 April 2014 for a PA in Q4 2013. Then the second admission on 08 July 2014 (after I found a letter) that happened during the summer of 2012 and she said was, "just some kissing." And finally the limited PA she eventually had to get off her chest on 26 Jan 2020 that occurred with an instructor in the spring of 2011. Almost 9 years ago. In all, from what I can find, my WW had three affairs in the span of 2.5 years eventually telling my about the last one first on 14 April 2014. My dream ended that day and unfortunately I almost took my life. I'm better now.

I'm still with my wife. I would like to say because we have reconciled but mainly because she kept hiding the truth of the affairs. I lost nearly 30 lbs after I found out. I just didn't feel like eating. Sadly I've put it all back on.

She initially admitted just the one PA with the third guy, some light kissing with the second, and some email exchanges with the first. I now know it was much, much, more than that with each. She down played the first two saying she didn't love them. Ohhhh that makes me feel so much better. :( The images are always in my mind. They won't ever leave.

I just wanted to say I feel your pain. Please make sure you or her get checked for STDs. Protect yourself. I made my wife do it.

Like your wife, I really love how she just wants to focus on the future. Saying, "I don't think about the past, why can't you just move forward too?" I keep telling her because I keep getting dragged back by all the lies and lack of truth, and "...for those who don't learn anything from the past they are bound to repeat it." She just wants me to forget and move on. She doesn't get it. My dream, the dream I've had since I was 5, is dead!

Lastly, check your computer or thumb drives if you share one with her. Just a couple of Sundays ago I was cleaning up an old thumb drive I had put some files from an old computer onto years ago while backing it up. I never deleted them after the backup. I came across a file I didn't recognize and discovered intimate conversations she had with the second guy. I should have known she had done that since I had found 206 pages in a hidden file years ago from the third guy. It took just around a page before I realized what I was reading. I confronted her about it and of course she didn't know it existed since it was on the thumb drive that was mine. I made her delete it. I haven't been right in the head since. I'm glad I found them first though. Glad my kids didn't have to find them by mistake like I did.

Good luck to you,

Death of a Dream

I'm still with my wife. I would like to say because we have reconciled but mainly because she kept hiding the truth of the affairs.

Moonmat, not to thread jack but why are you still with this woman? She doesn’t seem remorseful? Perhaps you could start another thread outlining why you’ve stayed — other than the fact that you stayed without knowing the real story. But now you do know, so why?

My WW brought her AP Into our home for unprotected sex. Yours did it in the marital bed.

As time has gone on the past four years I realized this is just a dealbreaker for me, along with of course the trickle truth and blame shifting.

But in your case it seems even more clear cut. What message do you think your WW has taken in by staying with her after she fouled your bed with another man?

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:31 PM, December 17th (Thursday)]

Respectfully Thumos, everyone else's case always seems more clear cut than our own.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 1:49 PM, December 17th (Thursday)]

Respectfully Thumos, everyone else's case always seems more clear cut than our own.

true dat. But don't you think you have even more clarity now than a month or two ago, TIF?

If my WW were to actually come to me with authentic transparency, I might be willing to look at that and see what I had to work with. But without that, I'm left with the brute fact she violated the sanctity of our home and exposed me to physical risk. It's a dealbreaker without anything else to ameliorate it.

Apparition,

Did your WW choose the MC?

I ask because it seems like another manipulation by your WW, how did she choose this MC.

A WW who is able to make you think you are in the best of marriages when she is engaged in multiple affairs must be a master manipulator.

Did she also believe she was in the best of marriages?

Many thoughtful and helpful replies to my last question(s), thanks to each of you.

A few questions I'll respond to in a later post, but I'd like go over a bit of an autopsy from MC yesterday. I suppose what I'm asking for is some re-assurance that I'm not going stark raving mad or not "getting it" as far as communication goes.

The MC is a grief and trauma specialist. WW and myself have been doing IC with them. After a few IC, I decided to try MC with her on a trial basis.

So the first weeks were to be spent working on communication. Okay, sound enough way to start. But in practice I feel abused and attacked. Two examples from last session:

MC to each of us: Before recently, how would you describe your M and what problems do you feel you had?

WW: I felt like I couldn't always voice what I wanted because I didn't feel equal.

MC to Me: And how do you feel about what she said?

Me: I'm sorry she felt unequal and didn't feel like she could voice what she wanted. But, I don't understand, what examples does she have of how she didn't get what she wanted and what did I do to make her feel unequal?

MC to WW: How does that make you feel?

WW: Intimidated. Like he didn't hear me. I don't have examples, it was a feeling.

MC to Me: WW is trying to tell you how she feels. People don't always have examples, what's important is that we recognize how each other feels.

Me: I recognized how she felt, but how is that useful to anyone if there is no example? And also, now she's added that I'm intimidating her. How am I intimidating her?

MC to WW: Why do you feel intimidated?

WW: It's the questioning, I have to answer how he wants me to answer.

MC to Me: Do you see how people don't think the same? It's important to understand how she feels and respond with how you feel. How do you feel?

Me to MC: I feel attacked and confused. I can't seem to ask or answer anything correctly.

(in circles we go for awhile about answering with feelings)

Other example:

During talking I say my wife must be harboring resentment if she is feeling intimidated and is often not getting what she wants.

MC to Me: We don't know what people are feeling and people don't usually respond well to being told how the feel.

Me: I understand. That should have been a question. Does WW feel resentment because she did not get what she wanted? (even though I have no examples of her not getting what she wanted as of yet)

MC to Me: We are trying to focus on real feelings, not what we believe other people are feeling.

Me to MC: How do I know what she's feeling if I don't ask?

MC to Me: We listen, there is a speaker and a listener in a conversation.

(round in circles with me trying to figure out how asking a question about how someone feels isn't correct communication).

Then four more times in the same session the MC brings up my error of stating how WW felt as an example of how not to communicate. At end of session, MC wrapped up like we had great progress, WW said things went good, I told them both I didn't appreciate being attacked and made out to be the bad person for an hour. MC apologized that I felt that way and asked that I understand we're working on communication skills and it's going to be hard for both of us. That we're working toward communicating so we can work on marital issues.

Remarkably, post session, my WW had sympathy for me on how it went. Her recognition was the only positive. But in-session WW went with this flow of feelings, absent of any description is somehow central. I know how I feel and exactly why I feel that way and will cite examples all day. I still don't freaking get it. Not all feelings are valid. If an arsonist burns down a house and then claims the he's feeling abused by the police, but then can't site an example of the abuse, how is it supposed to be taken seriously? Is this a Venus vs Mars type thing, how women view feelings vs men?

I'm going to seriously doubt your MC/IC's expertise on betrayal trauma.

You have a socks therapist. I can tell from the short script you wrote. Go up and read my socks script. See if it doesn't sound EXACTLY like your MC in your head.

I could write a computer program in a few lines that would be just as good as this MC.

#This program assists couples in communication

print("How would you characterize your marriage?")

while (client inserts money):

print("How does that make you feel?")

input()

print("What do you think about that?")

input()

print ("And that's our time. Really good progress today. You two are doing the work and that's what really matters.")

Your wife is a proven liar, cheater, and abuser. Neither you nor the MC can take anything she has to say at face value. If your MC is working on anything other than your WW re-establishing trust you are fucked. Just my opinion.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:26 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

MC to each of us: Before recently, how would you describe your M and what problems do you feel you had?

WW: I felt like I couldn't always voice what I wanted because I didn't feel equal.

MC to Me: And how do you feel about what she said?

Me: I'm sorry she felt unequal and didn't feel like she could voice what she wanted. But, I don't understand, what examples does she have of how she didn't get what she wanted and what did I do to make her feel unequal?

MC to WW: How does that make you feel?

WW: Intimidated. Like he didn't hear me. I don't have examples, it was a feeling.

MC to Me: WW is trying to tell you how she feels. People don't always have examples, what's important is that we recognize how each other feels.

Me: I recognized how she felt, but how is that useful to anyone if there is no example? And also, now she's added that I'm intimidating her. How am I intimidating her?

MC to WW: Why do you feel intimidated?

WW: It's the questioning, I have to answer how he wants me to answer.

MC to Me: Do you see how people don't think the same? It's important to understand how she feels and respond with how you feel. How do you feel?

Me to MC: I feel attacked and confused. I can't seem to ask or answer anything correctly.

(in circles we go for awhile about answering with feelings)

Just typical MC blarney, man. I went through something quite similar as did many others here. That's why we keep telling you that MC is a waste of time.

Yes, you are being abused. The above dialogue is a sophisticated version of DARVO. I'll hand it to your WW - she's very cunning.

Put a stop to this.

Do you really want to put up with more of this, grit your teeth through this nonsense, be lectured to and hectored by this pompous ass of a counselor? While your WW who wronged you and betrayed you gets fluffed?

Really?

Think of it this way: The old marriage, the one you are getting MC for, is dead. Your WW done blowed it up real good. It's GONE. It's not coming back. So getting counseling for what happened in the past and is now GONE is USELESS.

The only thing that matters now, for the foreseeable future, is the brute fact of your wife's serial cheating. That must be dealt with openly, authentically, transparently first and foremost. You must heal first. She must demonstrate long-term commitment and real remorse first. Then, and only then, you can start building a new marriage. Not the old one.

But if those things aren't happening, then you are WASTING YOUR TIME and your life with this.

Ask yourself:

1. Do you have the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

2. Is she remorseful (as opposed to regretful)?

3. Is she demonstrating remorse consistently with tangible and meaningful actions (not words)?

4. Is she likely to do this again?

5. Is she worth reconciliation? What does she bring to the table that another woman couldn't or that freedom from being around her in pain wouldn't?

Those are among the basic questions you need to be asking yourself.

Adultery itself by its very nature is abuse and really more like a form of rape. So the lack of honesty afterwards is merely compounding the initial abuse. Like a husband repeatedly punching his wife in the face after saying he was sorry and won't ever do it again.

This isn't going to get any easier. It's only going to get harder for awhile. So if you're going to try to reconcile with this woman, know you are signing up for a much more difficult trajectory for a few years.

Does she really have it in her? Do you?

If your wife isn't doing much to be transparent and is still lying, then the relationship is probably not worth saving. Because she already took a wrecking ball to it and isn't doing much, if anything, to establish a new relationship with you (which is a very heavy lift in any case, because you now know this person is a liar and a backstabber and a cheat).

Lastly, think about the fact that your minimal needs for safety, faithfulness, loyalty and so on have not been met and are still not being met.

If those minimal needs aren't even being met, what does she really offer other than pain?

I had a line I used with myself for awhile as a way of reprogramming my Mr. Nice Guy feedback loops -- and I started using here on SI:

"You are not obligated to shackle yourself to the source of your pain."

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:33 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

Apparition,

A fair question to ask the MC is has she had an affair emotional or physical in her marriage or relationships.

If she has she may see your WW as a victim and you as the perpetrator.

It may also be fair to ask the MC what she would do if her SO did this. If your spilling your guts to the MC she can at least state what her personal relationship beliefs are.

I agree with This0is0fine the basic conflict of interest of a MC is that she is there to cure you but does not get paid if she does.

From what I've seen of MCs and ICs they have a slow pace like unionized workers at a monopolized job site.

Let me go one step further Apparition.

Your MC needs to be asking your WW questions like,

"What actions have you taken to show you are trustworthy?"

"What type of reassurances have you given your husband?"

"What proof have you offered for your husband to verify your claims?"

Most MCs don't have the stones to ask these questions. Cause and effect are not allowed in an MC's office. Duty isn't allowed. Reason goes out the window.

Even the socks example should have a good answer, "Just don't leave your socks on the floor. It's gross." But you couldn't get an MC to even do that! They don't even lead a horse to water. They get it to say it is thirsty.