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You're about 3 months out from d-day, right?

The dust is just settling. You and your W are very possibly just starting to recover from shock due to the trauma.

People are rarely at their best while in shock. I think you've been doing a great deal of great work on your recovery.

I think you've been wise to spend this time gathering your resources rather than lashing out with a quick decision.

I think you've been wise to spend this time gathering your resources rather than lashing out with a quick decision.

Thank you. I do think there is merit in taking a tougher line and I worry that I've sabotaged a chance at R by not drawing a hard line of expectations and separating immediately. WW attitude is rugsweep. That's her choice, but I get choices myself when I'm ready. And I will not be choosing a rugsweep R.

Apparition, check your PMs. :)

You are worried that, by being soft, you are sabotaging your R as she has little motivation to do anything but rugsweep"...

Ya Think?

Of course that is what is happening.

Look, shock and awe works because it knocks the brain out of its comfort zone and shocks it into a new reality. You never knocked her off her protected perch in life. Her life goes on, no real suffering or pain...

Look at the examples who go full shock and awe and the BSs who go soft handed and try to love their WS through it to R.

Which group ends well? The first one...

She has no fear. Why does she have no fear? That should be a bigger question for you. Why does she have zero fear that you will do anything? Why was she so unafraid of your reactions that she cheated with what...15+ men? She has no fear of consequences because she thinks she knows you and that you are too soft to do anything real beyond words.

Is she right?

Yes, I'd say I am still hoping that with therapy she'll get it.

Sorry to break it to you, but this might happen only when it is too late for you to recover.

She says little things, opens up on occasion with some introspection, truth, and self awareness. But talking about anything related to the affair and she goes into defense and lie mode. Hell, talking about my feelings (which are based in her actions) puts her in the same mode. There is no way around it, she is not really in shape to do R. She says she is choosing R, but what she has chosen is: "If my husband will never mention my actions, forgive me and trust everything I say, then I can stay in the marriage". She clearly wants to rugsweep and move on. But then I get little signs that she could find the way. Is she just trying to feed me crumbs to keep it all together while she really decides what to do? It's a possibility that I don't rule out.

Like a stripper, she is teasing you, revealing a little bit at a time, but never going all the way. Flash a little bit here, a little bit there, and the dollar bills keep coming in... all in the hope of getting the whole thing. Keeping you entranced, and engaged (she ignores YOUR feelings and needs, but making you focused on HER feelings and needs/wants). She knows how to work you, to make you stay just that little bit longer... and hopefully, you will forget why you wanted to leave in the first place. (I believe there is some mythological creature/place that does this, but cannot remember the name!)

As to this:

Yes, I'm still fighting against the idealized version of my wife. No doubt. 100%. There are hundreds of thousands of interactions over the years, brave, selfless, and beautiful sacrifices she's made for others. There is friendship, time spent laughing, loving, and paling around like teenagers. But it's now like one of those cheap 80's double image posters, where depending on the angle it's a different picture. Looking from different angles I can see either picture.

There is a slight misunderstanding about this ideal/fantasy I was referring to. What I meant is; YOU are fighting against HER ideal/fantasy world of being single; being able to do what she like with who she likes, however way she likes it. The Single Life. She gets to pick up people in bars, have a wild and passionate night with a tall dark handsome stranger, and walk away like in all the romance novels.

You will not be able to fight against that...

What I meant is; YOU are fighting against HER ideal/fantasy world of being single; being able to do what she like with who she likes, however way she likes it.

I see and I agree. Last night and this morning I was obsessing/hurting over one particular aspect of exactly this. It took some real work to redirect my thoughts. I’m not optimistic that WW can become self aware enough to address her selfish behavior. She can say she is sorry often, but she is unable to say what she’s sorry about or address directly her decisions and selfish desire to have both a single life and me. That is unacceptable that she can’t honestly communicate directly on that issue and apologize for her selfishness directly and without excuses.

I saw someone else’s D letter and it inspired me to write my own. I did, several pages long. Then I realized the letter addressed how she was failing me in R, making it not a D letter, but a request for R work. Then I paired it down, finally arriving at “ “You have forced D and its happening, here are the next steps.”. Then I realized I didn’t need a D letter, I just needed to prep and tell her.

The fact is I’m not there yet. But I can seen it from where I’m at. Not a strategic D to force her to get it, but a real delivery of the fact I am D’ing her. The only real decision I’ve made is to give R every chance and be a “text book” R spouse. A hardline as a tactic would have increased chance of R, but that ship has sailed with M counseling. The path is: WW has an opportunity to R with M counseling help and my best efforts. How long I give this stage I don’t know, but a few weeks in m counseling will give me an idea.

What I meant is; YOU are fighting against HER ideal/fantasy world of being single; being able to do what she like with who she likes, however way she likes it.

I see and I agree. Last night and this morning I was obsessing/hurting over one particular aspect of exactly this. It took some real work to redirect my thoughts. I’m not optimistic that WW can become self aware enough to address her selfish behavior. She can say she is sorry often, but she is unable to say what she’s sorry about or address directly her decisions and selfish desire to have both a single life and me. That is unacceptable that she can’t honestly communicate directly on that issue and apologize for her selfishness directly and without excuses.

I saw someone else’s D letter and it inspired me to write my own. I did, several pages long. Then I realized the letter addressed how she was failing me in R, making it not a D letter, but a request for R work. Then I paired it down, finally arriving at “ “You have forced D and its happening, here are the next steps.”. Then I realized I didn’t need a D letter, I just needed to prep and tell her.

The fact is I’m not there yet. But I can see it from where I’m at. Not a strategic D to force her to get it, but a real delivery of the fact I am D’ing her. The only real decision I’ve made is to give R every chance and be a “text book” R spouse. A hardline as a tactic would have increased chance of R, but that ship has sailed with M counseling. The path is: WW has an opportunity to R with M counseling help and my best efforts. How long I give this stage I don’t know, but a few weeks in m counseling will give me an idea.

[This message edited by Apparition at 6:36 AM, December 10th (Thursday)]

I do think there is merit in taking a tougher line and I worry that I've sabotaged a chance at R by not drawing a hard line of expectations and separating immediately.

I think success comes from being true to yourself.

I personally do not think I used shock and awe. One thing I thought I had to avoid at virtually all cost was manipulating my W into R. For R to work, I thought she had to choose it freely.

At the same time, on d-day, my W had already decided to go NC after a meeting for closure. It was not difficult to move from that to establishing NC via text message. She had already decided to change from betrayer to good partner. She had already realized at some level that she had betrayed herself before she betrayed me, and she wanted to stop doing that.

Your W is not where my W was. She may never get there. If she does, though, she may become a great partner. You're taking a few months to see what will happen. The payoff can be decades of a good emotional life, whether you D or R. That seems like a good ROI to me.

*****

I may be misunderstanding the meaning of 'shock and awe'. For one thing, I don't think shock and awe is sustainable, and recovery from being betrayed requires sustained effort.

That implies to me that S & A is not authentic, and I think recovering from being betrayed requires getting authentic, the more authentic, the better.

SI collective wisdom has identified a number of things that help R - NC, honesty, transparency, IC, perhaps MC at the right time.

If S & A means setting requirements and sticking by them, then it most definitely can be authentic and not manipulative. I think that is what you've moved towards and continue to move towards, Apparition.

*****

WRT loving the WS, I certainly loved mine, even on d-day. The thing is: to recover, the BS has to learn that love is not enough. The BS has to figure out that sometimes one has to send a lover away to save oneself.

The BS has to put his own oxygen mask on, and the BS has to realize his WS has to put his own oxygen mask on. The BS cannot heal the WS, no matter how much he loves the BS. R requires freely given commitments and work from all partners.

And the love is best deployed to help support the WS in doing the necessary difficult work. Love is totally misplaced if it's used to shield the WS from the work.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:14 AM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

She can say she is sorry often, but she is unable to say what she’s sorry about or address directly her decisions and selfish desire to have both a single life and me. That is unacceptable that she can’t honestly communicate directly on that issue and apologize for her selfishness directly and without excuses.

This is pretty common, unfortunately. My WW said she was sorry a lot. But she didn't live out for a good long while and still hasn't in fundamental ways.

Actions are what counts, not words.

I saw someone else’s D letter and it inspired me to write my own. I did, several pages long. Then I realized the letter addressed how she was failing me in R, making it not a D letter, but a request for R work. Then I paired it down, finally arriving at “ “You have forced D and its happening, here are the next steps.”. Then I realized I didn’t need a D letter, I just needed to prep and tell her.

I was cracking up reading this, not because I'm laughing at you, but because I did almost precisely the same thing. A long, long letter. Then pared that letter down. Then threw that letter away and just said "I want a divorce."

A WS is not a stupid person. If they don't get it by now, it's because they are being willfully obtuse. They don't need it explained to them.

WRT loving the WS, I certainly loved mine, even on d-day. The thing is: to recover, the BS has to learn that love is not enough. The BS has to figure out that sometimes one has to send a lover away to save oneself.

This is one of the best things Sisoon has written and it is actually something I was thinking about the other day. I always say don't conflate forgiveness with reconciliation and don't confuse love with needing to stay married to someone. You can forgive and R. You can forgive and D. Forgiveness is for you. You can love someone and realize they aren't a healthy safe life partner for you.

Sisoon says it better here.

I worry that I've sabotaged a chance at R by not drawing a hard line of expectations and separating immediately.

Don't worry about this. It's not up to you to do all the heavy lifting, not for a long time. It's not up to you to "manage" a perfect reconciliation.

This is not your burden. It's her burden.

It's up to her to pull her head out of her ass. If she's not willing to do that, the rest is just white noise.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:40 AM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

I was cracking up reading this, not because I'm laughing at you, but because I did almost precisely the same thing. A long, long letter. Then pared that letter down. Then threw that letter away and just said "I want a divorce."

This was real nice to hear, I felt a little silly after putting in all the effort only to realize it didn't make sense. If I'm at D an extended letter is beside the point.

The thing is: to recover, the BS has to learn that love is not enough.

This has been a hard learned lesson. Despite hearing this early, I didn't actually accept it until my WW put me through a living hell. Then the light came on, OHHHHH, I do love her, but I must have this other stuff.

One thing I thought I had to avoid at virtually all cost was manipulating my W into R. For R to work, I thought she had to choose it freely.

This has been essential to me. Sometimes my WW does things that need to be done, but her attitude is so poor and her resistance to it so strong, that even after she does it I find it hard to give her credit as it being positive. One of the things I am going to need is transparency. It's easy to find typical transparency guidelines for recovering couples. I've given them to her. She's made no effort and so I've made no demands. I'll put it out there during MC again, but if its not freely and enthusiastically given, then I don't care if it happens. We'll end in D.

I would like to say WW has done some things well. She immediately cut things off with the long running AP. I don't believe there has been contact, but I'll be doing some things to check if R starts actually happening. Otherwise, it's beside the point and a waste of my efforts.

Apparition, the is a saying that that person in the relationship who cares the least, controls the power between the couple. And I find it to be true.

Right now, you're doing everything you can to make R work. I think you've come a long ways since this first started, but youve got a ways to go. I believe that your Wife knows that you are desparately trying to save this marriage. And you know what, thats okay. I think most individuals who come on this board, in one way or another tries to save their marriage. We are so use to our spouses, and use to who we think they are, and when they change, we just don't recognize them. We don't understand them, and we don't want to take on that truth that the person we hold so dear, would treat us this way. As you've seen in the days that youve been on here, and the advice that you're given, has somewhat woken you up and you're at least able to say that D is a possibility.

Keep working on you, but know that you cannot keep this up of propping up the WW, and hoping and making her do the work. At some point, whether its this week, or next year, you will tire of dragging her thru R. Hoping she gets it, and hoping that she can once again be the wife that you had. She cannot, and will not be that person anymore. She can change and be a different wife, maybe someone more trustworthy and worthwhile to staying with, but you would have taken on yrs of damage on top of the infidelity and then you would have changed as well. Whether you want to or not. You will become an embattled BS, worn down, and pulling the marriage along. Do you want that, and do you think you'll still be happy?

Sometimes, you have to make a bold move. Its scary, and there is no certain outcome. But maybe, just maybe, all thousands of folks on this board may know a thing or two about infidelity. And these folks already know your outcome and want you to avoid the mistakes they made during their first 3 months of this mess. I urge you, to take on the guidance, and take a hard look at how long you're willing to drag this marriage along and do all the work. Right now, as stated above, you care more about the relationship and she has the power. Take it back, take your life back. Make her well aware that you are no longer the one who needs to fight for this marriage and that is her job, otherwise you'll walk. And you need to mean it and to follow it thru. You don't want to be back here in 5 yrs as a repeat, and you certainly don't want to be in the same spot 5 yrs from how, still dragging her on to be a true partner in your marriage, and hope she cares enough to be honest, to do the work beyond the infidelity, and lastly, to actually want to be with you.

She can say she is sorry often, but she is unable to say what she’s sorry about or address directly her decisions and selfish desire to have both a single life and me. That is unacceptable that she can’t honestly communicate directly on that issue and apologize for her selfishness directly and without excuses.

Optional exercise for you if you have the energy (and impetus) to try and get more answers:

WW: I'm sorry.

BH: What are you sorry for?

WW: I'm sorry for hurting you.

BH: What did you do to hurt me?

WW: I cheated on you.

BH: Why did you cheat on me?

WW: Because I was lonely.

BH: In what way were you lonely?

This trail can go on almost indefinitely, and it is using the ol' 5Ws + 1H questions. I have used this on some people who have come to me for advice. They seem to be happier and more focused when they walk away (maybe they just wanted to get away from me )

inspired me to write my own. I did, several pages long. Then I realized the letter addressed how she was failing me in R, making it not a D letter, but a request for R work. Then I paired it down, finally arriving at “ “You have forced D and its happening, here are the next steps.”. Then I realized I didn’t need a D letter, I just needed to prep and tell her.

This was a very smart move. What you did was to make your intangibles tangible. Writing your thoughts down, and then paring them down, actually helped you focus your thoughts on what YOU need/want.

The fact is I’m not there yet. But I can seen it from where I’m at.

This is as good a start as any. Self-awareness. Just make sure that you do not get into the Rug-Sweeping mode, as this can happen if you leave this thought for too long. Keep focused, not on R or D, but out of the shithole called Infidelity.

Not a strategic D to force her to get it, but a real delivery of the fact I am D’ing her. The only real decision I’ve made is to give R every chance and be a “text book” R spouse.

You seem to be convinced to walk the R path so early on. You know your WW is totally not safe for you and your family, and yet you want to predetermine the end-goal, which is R.

Perhaps you should write another letter. This time to yourself, on why you are choosing R when your WW is not even near this path. Then pare that letter down.

This does not mean that you should definitely go for D (even though I personally think that you should, at this point in time), but the letter will help you focus.

Ask yourself what you Need in a healthy M in that letter.

A hardline as a tactic would have increased chance of R, but that ship has sailed with M counseling.

Hardline approaches are never permanent. They are brittle, and can crack and break over time.

The path is: WW has an opportunity to R with M counseling help and my best efforts. How long I give this stage I don’t know, but a few weeks in m counseling will give me an idea.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you might have noticed that you do not have a M at the moment, so I am not too sure what you will get out of MC. It might be a safe place for your WW to talk, but it will be unlikely that you will get much out of it if she has not addressed the demons inside her in IC.

As to how long you should give this process? Well, ask yourself how long are you willing to stay in Limbo?

Apparition, I really feel your pain.

My thoughts regarding R:

I always thought it was kind of esoteric, but I realized that there is such a thing as a borderline personality disorder. I am not sure whether it's really a sickness (I sometimes think it's simply a character, which is - by the way - relatively successful from an evolutionary point or view if you look at how many women suffering from BPD have multiple children, even from multiple men). You might want to read up on it and consider whether you're really ready and able to stand beside such a character. Naturally not all cheaters have BPD, but your wife might be one of them. My XW has been diagnosed at a later stage.

I was not actively posting when I had my own little domestic catastrophe, because my XW knew about the forum, but nevertheless posted my story when it was "over".

My lessons learned (quoted from my own thread):

1) I still believe that you should ask all the questions and get all the answers if you are in the process of R. HOWEVER: If D seems likely, do NOT go down that rabbit hole. Just go straight for D. What I discovered was some really sick stuff. If a grown, single man intrudes into a marriage and is willing to "share" the woman with her H and is not pushing for her to leave her H, chances are the guy is a sicko. Most probably he will be into stuff he's not getting anywhere else, otherwise it's simply not worth the effort and the risk. It turned out the guy was infatuated with me, not so much with my XW. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but what they did for sex was as nasty as it gets (general area: humiliation, incest and rape play, also involving beach pictures of my sister's children). I have no idea why she joined him, but it was a gradual process. Karma hit both her and the AP relatively hard, but it doesn't give me much joy. I can't quite put the finger on it... mostly, I feel disappointed for spending so much time with a person so tremendously stupid and mean.

2) Run. I deeply regret the months I waisted for R. My X disrespected and hurt me in ways I still can’t fully comprehend. The STD (which she knew about btw; get this: her reasoning was that she wanted to share his infection so they could be in the same boat; my health was not considered even for a second) was one thing, but all the little victories she was enjoying, i.e. all the lies she got away with, are simply disgusting. A person who does this to you is aiming for your life. Run.

3) n/a

4) Listen to your gut.

5) Assume the worst. I made a list of my three biggest fears and all of them came true.

6) I completely underestimated the A’s impact on my life. The first weeks after D-Day (January 2018) were really, really tough. Tickle truth while discovering 90% on my own, etc. After you go public, you’ll find that everybody is understanding and feeling sorry for you. It feels good and comforting. As time passes, people, especially employers, become less and less compassionate. Now I find myself job-hopping, I don’t feel as resilient as I used to be and my short-term memory is a mess. I used to be a very efficient and diligent worker, today I am not. I started seeing a therapist in the very beginning, when I was, well, suicidal. IC didn't help with the concentration issues. I don’t have any advice on how to deal with the long-term effects of trauma (anybody?), but time probably heals all wounds. What helps in the beginning: Don’t be alone, reach out to your friends, take some time off work and go see a therapist.

7) Get in shape and start dating. I didn’t end up with any of the ladies I met in the beginning, but dating helped me realize that I am not a lost case.

8) When I met my now-fiancée, I immediately knew that she was the one I was looking for all my life. She helped me more than any therapist could have. Hence, my last advice: Don’t ruin it. Don’t assume all women are alike. Always be honest and true to yourself. Give happiness a chance

[This message edited by knowingmystance at 1:21 AM, December 10th (Thursday)]

If you read enough posters on here you will find that some Rs fall apart after a few years. The WSs think they have done most of the right things and their history is boxed up, is gathering dust in the attic, while the BSs can’t help but open the box every day. Somewhere along the way D just looks easier.

Yes, I'd say I am still hoping that with therapy she'll get it. She says little things, opens up on occasion with some introspection, truth, and self awareness. But talking about anything related to the affair and she goes into defense and lie mode. Hell, talking about my feelings (which are based in her actions) puts her in the same mode. There is no way around it, she is not really in shape to do R.

Your wife sounds like she acted this way during her first marriage and this way during most of your marriage.

You have to recognise that this is her, this is the lifestyle she has lived for years and is the way she wants to live. I'm not sure there is anything for her to get because I suspect that though she may care for you and the marriage, its not enough because she doesn't want change and the hurt she has caused is a lesser evil to her than giving up acting like a single woman (poissibly with a sex addiction).

[This message edited by Jambomo at 3:27 PM, December 10th (Thursday)]

Apparition, you are in very good hands here.

I am new to posting but have read SI for a while. When you read the posts and advice of others it all seems so clear. Clear patterns emerge. Yet when one is caught up in this oneself, one's emotions, history and love can prevent one seeing clearly or acting decisively when the situation warrants.

I have found it very helpful to read some of the "iconic" past threads to try to spot patterns and learn from the history and experiences of others. Reading your thread reminds me how one very accomplished and very wise poster who is sadly no longer with us once felt about his own situation. I would encourage you to read the original Ohforanewme thread. I think that may help you.

I think your WW is tired and just does not have what it takes, not only to reconcile, but to be a marriageable person. She wants you to end it, because she is too much of a coward to do it herself. She knows this.

I concur with Westway 💯 %.

One day at a time.

I would encourage you to read the original Ohforanewme thread. I think that may help you

Really would like to, but can’t see to locate it.

https://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=606741&AP=1&HL=

Here is the thread.

Good luck