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So some men can't enjoy simple cuddling with their wife because of some primordial drive to perpetuate the species?

Seriously? All these years and ya can't have an intellectual relationship with a wife along with a physical one?

If Porn is an issue in a marriage, if porn is replacing intimacy with a spouse then it's a problem period.

Incoming, another essay

When I asked him why he lied his answer included these two completely contradictory statements:

1. "I wasn't trying to deceive you."

2. "I really didn't want you to find out."

Oh man, aren't those contradictions exhausting?

My XH's was always

1. That's not mine/I have no idea where it came from

then, when forced to face it because I wouldn't back down

2. It's not like it's new, that's something old from before that we just hadn't found yet.

Well, which is it??

Like you said, so many red flags when they contradict themselves so much. You just want to scream at them STOP LYING YOU IDIOT!

They don't get that they are mutually exclusive statements, so even if one of them is true, then that means the other one is NOT true. So no matter which answer it actually is, they are still proving themselves to be a liar by making two contradictory statements! It's enough to make your head spin!

my one fear with this is that he's dodging, hard. He knows I'm seriously questioning whether he has a "problem" with sex/porn. And the conversation left me wondering if his goal (maybe not even conscious) was to reassure me that the boundary is intact (for me) and to dive into some intensive self-work that is largely off-this-topic.

I don't really know where he is going next with the renewed honesty-with-self that he is promising, but I am bracing for some sort of redirect.

Yes, yes, and yes! If he knows how seriously you are taking porn as an issue in your marriage, then yes he is likely trying to dodge right now. I'm not saying that he definitely doesn't see it as an issue, and that he might not get help for it. The problem is, he's proven that he lies about this stuff, so you can't really trust what he says yet. He has to show you.

Words are easy, actions are hard. So until he actually shows you that he is getting help for this specific problem, how will you know it is getting better, other than to just take his word for it? Obviously you'll be able to hear what he discusses in MC, but in IC, he's on his own, and counselors can only work with the information they are given.

After a confrontation, my XH would always try to say "I'm never going to watch porn again!" He would then break the DVD in half in front of me and throw it away, to "prove" this. Or he would say "I'm never going to masturbate again!" and then throw away all of his various lubricants etc. as "proof."

I would say look, without you getting help from a therapist to figure out why it is that you feel the need to keep doing it and lying about it, just straight up NOT doing it is an unachievable goal. I would ask him to please not make commitments he could not honor. Didn't matter, he did them anyway.

And then the DVDs would show back up again. The empty bottles of lubricant would be "hidden" around the house. Because he didn't seek the help to figure out his why.

When I am inclined to think positive thoughts about my XH, not just "fuck that guy" thoughts, I personally feel that he has so much shame around sex in general, then also with masturbation and his own sexuality, that he lied to "protect" himself from possible judgement. No matter how much I encouraged an open dialogue, until he sought outside help, there was no fixing his relationship with sex, and therefore his relationship with me. He never did go to therapy, and this whole thing spiraled out of control.

IMO, your H is likely just trying to redirect, but my XH was a pro at it, so we have to consider the possibility of projection. But in my experience, until he comes to you and says "Hey, I think I have a problem with this, here is my research on CSATs in the area that I think might be able to help me with this particular hang up, and I've already called to make an appointment" he's likely not taking this as seriously as you are.

Yeah, but at least you had mutilated underwear and giant dildos. That's undeniably pretty weird, as masturbation props go.

(Sorry if that was tactless, I have no filter.)

Nope, not tactless at all! You have to laugh about it, it's just so damn laughable. And it's crazy what you can get used to. To be honest, the giant dildos became so normal to me, that when I would find them, instead of losing my shit and screaming about it like I used to in the beginning, I would just lay it on his pillow for him to find when he would get home from work. Just a nice, polite way of saying, "I know, let's talk about it"

Re: screaming about it, I know now that this was not the right tactic. I learned fairly quickly that remaining calm and opening up discussion was the only way to avoid the shame spiral. I did however have my fair share of losing my shit in the early days - one of my more creative ones was after finding yet another pair of my underwear knotted up and covered in oil, I took a brand new shirt that I had just bought him, put it in his bathroom sink, then melted an entire jar of coconut oil and dumped it on top.

Funny, yes. But ultimately only felt good for a minute, then felt terrible about myself for stooping to his level. And in the end it was hurtful to him, and not conducive to sparking any real change, as it just made him hesitant to open up to me. It took a LOT of work on my part to earn his trust back with that. The only purpose revenge/retaliation served for me was to remind me that these behaviors did not feel good, and that I would not want to live my life in that way.

To this point:

The thing about my H, and I was thinking this while reading Bigger's post, is that he is not into anything even the slightest bit "weird." The porn he likes is not "sick," not by anyone's standards.

It really doesn't matter if it's "sick" or not, what matters is that he is lying to you about it. Same as with the cam girls, same as with the As. The main goal of IC for him should be figuring out why he feels the need to lie about it. Of course the easy answer is always "because I want to do it, and you get mad at me when you find out about it, so it's easier just not to tell you" But that is truly the easy way out by blameshifting. There is always a deeper answer there, he has to search for it.

You're in a good place in that he has at least admitted to the addiction. Not using that word of course, but him saying "I don't think my desire to do that will ever go away" requires a level of self-awareness that some people just don't have. Now his job is to figure out ways to redirect that energy so that he does not do it again.

I think his relationship to porn is like a sort of seduction-simulation. Sort of: What can I get her to do for me? Or at the least, getting "high" on the excitement/ anticipation of what might happen as much as (or perhaps even more than) the thing itself, which I think is exactly the high he was chasing with the A's.

What I see is what looks like an addictive pattern around the build-up to sex, which fits perfectly into all of his A's (which were all build-up, no sex) and his style of porn-use.

Is that a stretch?

Doesn't sound like a stretch to me at all! Very interesting that he used the word curiosity. Does he have self esteem issues? Sounds to me like he likes the build up because if they do end up taking their clothes off for him it proves that he somehow "earned" it. Kind of like what you were saying in regards to the "What can I get her to do for me?" thing.

This also ties in with him wanting to watch someone in total pleasure, even if it seemed fake. My XH had similar preferences in the very over-the-top, I'm loving this so much type of behavior from the women in porn, and was always SUPER concerned with whether or not I was getting off, but not from the giving "are you enjoying it?" perspective, more so from the taking "am I doing a good job?" perspective. I think a lot of that came from the fact that he had ED issues sometimes.

No matter what I said, or how I acted in response to sex with him, he never felt that he was good enough. If I even so much as shifted my body because my hip was hurting, or lifted my head because my hair was stuck under his arm, his ED would flare up because he felt like he did something "wrong."

And trust me, I made absolutely sure that he knew how much I enjoyed sex with him, that it was always the best I'd ever had - and I mean that with all sincerity, because it was. The problem was I don't think he ever believed it. Which is why he kept seeking the validation elsewhere.

The major sticking point with self esteem issues is that they are SELF esteem issues. Nobody can fix that for anybody else, they have to do a lot of work to figure that out for themselves. AND, it's a particularly touchy subject for the spouse, because your H will start to read in to every little thing you say as some sort of dig. The shame spiral when it comes to sexuality is very, very real.

Should I push hard for him to confront this issue as the #1 priority right now?

Honestly, I would say yes, but very delicately. And by delicately, I don't mean back tracking on your own standards/boundaries. Just with a real attempt at compassion, and an earnest desire to not just say "you're fucked up for doing this to me, and here's why."

All addicts become addicts for a reason. There is some trauma in their lives, actual or sometimes even perceived, that they are trying to cope with. Their addiction is their form of self-medication. So while labeling them as an addict helps you to understand the behavior, it shouldn't be to put them down and make them feel less than. They probably already feel that way.

But instead the best thing you can do is say "I can tell there is something underlying here that makes you feel you can't live without this addiction (habit is a good word to use if you feel they will have a negative reaction to "addiction"). I personally cannot live with it, so I sincerely hope you get help. I am here to support you as we uncover what the underlying issue is so we can hopefully begin to move towards some healing."

All addicts deserve compassion. I still very much feel compassion for my XH and the severe self esteem issues he faces on a daily basis. It must be terrible to hate yourself as much as he does. But that doesn't mean I needed to tolerate his poor treatment of me. And if they refuse to seek help, it's not your responsibility to prop up their self esteem until the day you die. We've been taught that to truly be loving that you must be willing to do absolutely anything for that person. The truth is, that's just not realistic. You can be compassionate, but also set boundaries.

So some men can't enjoy simple cuddling with their wife because of some primordial drive to perpetuate the species?

Seriously? All these years and ya can't have an intellectual relationship with a wife along with a physical one?

You're twisting my words. I did not say that men, or I, cannot enjoy cuddling with my wife. What I did say, or attempted to say, is that it's going to be very difficult to not think sexually about that if we've not been together recently. And that's going to be frustrating for me. My wife is stunningly beautiful, if she's pressing her body against mine (cuddling) and we haven't had sex in a week, yeah, it's going to be frustrating and it's going to be, in some ways, worse than sitting across the table from her because my desire for her is going to be difficult to handle. Now, before you think me a total monster, if she's sick, if she's tired, if we've just had a "hard" conversation, yeah, that does change things. But, if we're both just laying there, holding one another, both 100% fine healthy and feeling loving towards one another and don't wind up having sex (and haven't had sex recently), yeah, that's gonna suck.

I never said you couldn't have both, and if I implied it, I didn't mean to. We were talking about physical contact, which, at least for me, if I'm attracted to someone, is going to start the hormonal chain reaction that leads to "I really want to have sex now". Want to sit around and discuss novels all day, no problem. Want to press against my body wearing your underwear and me in mine and having had sex in awhile? Yeah, that's gonna be hard for me and I think a lot of other men who have a strong physical attraction to their wives.

And yes, it's hard exactly for that reason, because of the strong primordial drive to perpetrate the species which manifests itself in arousal when you've got an attractive woman pressed against your body or you see one having sex on the screen.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:46 PM, February 27th (Wednesday)]

Why is it always about the guy getting off?

Because, frankly, you will never understand because you are not a guy. Just like I think it’s a complete waste of time and money that my wife gets her nails done. I don’t have a need to hold hands every time we’re driving in the car together. I don’t have a need to send/receive “I love you” or “I’m thinking of you” texts three times a day. My wife has that need, so I do it for her, for us. However, I do have a need for sex 3-4 times a week. If she’s not up for it, I do it myself. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand?

Men and women have different needs and different points of views. The ones that can meet somewhere in the middle have the greatest chances for success and mutual happiness.

Edited to add: someone asked earlier if my wife knows. She does. I don’t hide it. She’s walked in on me once or twice and just said “I’m sorry”. I mean, I don’t make an announcement when I’m going to do it, but I don’t hide the needs I have as a healthy man. I’m not 15 years old anymore sneaking a Playboy.

[This message edited by LostHope8008 at 9:23 PM, February 27th (Wednesday)]

this is gonna be as popular as a fart in church

Someone called?

Alright, I'm gonna try my best to respond to some of this WITHOUT touching on anyone's pain. I've tried to contribute to these threads before and accidentally hurt some of the feelings if posters here that I consider friends, so I'm gonna tiptoe (metaphorically) around some of these topics.

First, worstclubever, I would like to share something I've done relatively recently. I stopped drinking. As in only one night (new years eve) in the past year. I didn't have a 'i need to drink every day' problem. I had a 'once I have one, I want to continue until it's all gone or I vomit' problem. It happened to me after dday. Whatever thingy inside me that told me I'd had enough was broken. I tried testing the waters several times in the years that followed thinking 'maybe it's come back'... but it never did.

Why do I bring this up? Because if my wife or anyone outside of the police tried to push the idea of stopping on me, it wouldn't have worked. I had to make that decision myself. I see lots of bw here trying to get their wh to stop using porn, and its very few I think that are successful for this reason.

My suggestion to you is to find a way to make him think the idea came from him. Not in a leading way, either. And then, if successful and he tries to stop, never bring it up afterwards unless he does.

Which is it????

I am trying so hard to get a handle on this alien thing, and the aliens can't seem to agree about what it's like. Sorry, guys. I know you're not aliens. Well, maybe a little bit.

But seriously, to what extent does giving up porn require an unnatural feat of male self-control? Is this really just a bullshit line, where guys are just unwilling to acknowledge the difference between a want and a need?

In the rio vs bigger scale of opinion here, I'm leaning toward RIO. No, it's not some unnatural feat of self-control. I'd put it closer to an ease of use explanation. If I'm going to masturbate, its easier to do with porn. That simple... for me anyways.

I hope that helps, but realize it might not.

There are a multitude of other comments on this thread I agree and disagree with, but I doubt my opinion on those will help you with your goal.

Sometimes though, I find outlining things to he helpful, so let me try that:

1. You don't want your wh to watch porn

2. You've talked to him to ask him to stop amd he hasn't

3. He's also cheated and may have an addiction problem.

4. You asked about how hard it would be not to watch and recieved mixed results.

5. You're in alot of pain, and him continuing feels like he isn't understanding that

Your options to get him to stop are? What is the probability of success? Which ones are easy / hard to accomplish?

Would it be as easy as Bigger said for him to quit? Sure...IF that decision originates from him.

That's my 2 cents for whatever its worth.

Regardless of a particular person's opinion on porn--which will vary drastically, as is obvious by this thread, I think the most important thing is that the married couple agrees on what is and isn't acceptable behavior. If they don't, then that's just going to be one more that thing eats away at the relationship. I agree that it mainly becomes a problem when it starts to reduce the physical intimacy coming from the porn user, but there could be other effects like a moral conflict or what not.

The Internet makes it easy for men to have unabated access to porn. The cat's out of the bag. Male libidos are a force of their own, so it's no wonder that a lot of us are drawn to the abundant supply. It's the male version of the Selfie Generation's "look how happy and cute I am" posts and overspending on unnecessary accessories. I married a shopaholic who would spend hundreds a month on crap that would just sit in the closet or under our bed, at the expense of future-planning or investment into shared interests. In either situation, it's perfectly normal for the person to set boundaries and see each type of behavior as a vice which should be avoided due to its own set of deleterious effects.

Ironically, I stopped watching porn altogether for the last year of our marriage, when I thought things were going great. I guess I got too comfortable.

I don’t watch porn. I have never understood how/why someone would find watching other people having intercourse stimulating.

I askecWH to stop porn many times over our marriage. He would promise to stop, but, eventually, be discovered doing it. He says he used it for masturbation. He didn’t think I was actually anti porn, that I “didn’t really mean it” when I asked him to stop porn.

Yes, I sincerely tie porn to cheating.

The sexual relationship between a monogamous couple is intimate, supposed to be a safe place to express desire, feel desired, be sexually free with each other, and be safe from harm. I’m not the nubile 20 year old of yesteryear. I am married to someone who destroyed the sexual intimacy of my marriage by enjoying porn and sampling other men’s wives. The lying might be the most damning thing of all.

How do you communicate the absolute annhilation of your relationship to someone, over stupid visualizations of unfortunate people who must eek out a living by having biological functions recorded for public consumption?

You can’t

I don’t want to come across as someone that rides unicorns to work. I have my vices and my issues, only porn is not one of them. Nor am I so naïve to think that it only takes a decision to quit any bad habit/addiction. It does take more, but it all starts with a wish –> followed by a decision –> followed by actions to implement that decision.

I don’t necessarily see using porn as infidelity. That is not my issue with the subject. If there is an agreement between spouses, then porn isn’t infidelity. By definition “agreement” eliminates one-sided demands, so both must be clear on the agreement. If a couple can’t reach an agreement I see a communications and values issue.

My issue is that I do see porn as derogatory for the participants. OK – so there might be the one-in-a-thousand porn-star that is happy with the career-choice and has had a long, successful career, but I venture (and research does support this theory) that most participants regret their decision and suffer heavy consequences. I also think that the industry is steadily lowering ethical standards as is evident with prominent titles like “Barely Legal” and any woman over 25 being classified as a MILF. I just don’t want to support in any way or form an industry that is mainly based around degrading people – INCLUDING the consumers.

I don’t watch porn. I have never understood how/why someone would find watching other people having intercourse stimulating.

I doubt I'll ever understand how sticking an inanimate vibrating phallus inside of myself is so sexually stimulating either. Does that mean it's not? Or it's wrong? They say men are stimulated visually (which I think is true) and women are stimulated by their mind. That's somewhat true, but the real truth of it is "women are stimulated by their mind and by machines". Again, generalizations here, but still, it's certainly true that a higher percentage of men enjoy porn as a masturbation aid than women and equally true that a higher percentage of women enjoy vibrators and dildos as a masturbation aid than men. Do I "understand it"? Yeah, in some ways I do, vibration feels good to me too, but it's certainly not "all that" like it is for my wife (or many other women). Do women find themselves unable to orgasm or uninterested in sex with their partners because of vibrator use; yes, some do, just like some men develop issues with porn and would rather do that than have sex. Is a vibrator a gateway to an A? I kind of doubt it, but, who knows, for a sexually motivated female A, yes, it very well might be.

My issue is that I do see porn as derogatory for the participants. OK – so there might be the one-in-a-thousand porn-star that is happy with the career-choice and has had a long, successful career

And that's certainly your prerogative, and, that's logically consistent, a lot of women who are doing porn as their job would much rather be doing something else. As would a lot of men doing porn (who often aren't even gay, but are "gay for pay"). And a lot of plumbers, laying under a house in the crawlspace with feces all of them, I'm sure many of them would rather be doing something else. Or a lot of people in foreign countries getting bombs and bullets sent their way with the intent to kill, pretty sure they'd rather be doing something else too. Some jobs suck, some suck more than others. No, porn isn't the job I'd want for my daughter, but not because it's porn, because it's a crappy job with a very short time window that impacts your job options moving forward. But let's be realistic here, if there were a total "porn ban" tomorrow, what would the former porn stars be doing? The likely answer is the same thing they are doing now, just a LOT more dangerous. They'd be escorting and selling their bodies to the highest bidder, just that payment would be a lot lower because without the distribution aspect, there's a limit to how much a man will pay to have a sexual experience. So yes, I wish that nobody had jobs they hated, not just porn stars, but I also know that there's a reason they call it a job and not a hobby. And there are a lot of jobs out there either more dangerous and/or more awful (at least to me) than "porn star".

wish –> followed by a decision –> followed by actions to implement that decision

Agreed. How does the OP get her wh here?

How does the OP get her wh here?

She can't. His choices are his own, as is hers.

If she feels that his porn use is unacceptable for R to happen then she sets boundaries of no porn. If he chooses to continue to use it the it's not exactly about the porn it's about his choice. He is choosing porn over his marriage.

It's no different than asking for NC, a timeline, polygraph etc etc. The B's sets boundaries and what they require for R. If the WAS chooses not to do them than the bs follows with whatever consequences be it D or whatever.

If she feels that his porn use is unacceptable for R to happen then she sets boundaries of no porn. If he chooses to continue to use it the it's not exactly about the porn it's about his choice. He is choosing porn over his marriage.

We're all free to define our specific requirements for R. However, we have to be careful not to step to far into the realm of "that'll never happen" lest we make R something that's near impossible. We talk about this ad nauseam in the reverse context "I want the sex the AP got" and those posts get tremendous response from both sides, "Of course you deserve that" to "That's an unreasonable expectation and you cannot control your wife's body". All are reasonable responses, but, much like this discussion, we're really talking about controlling another sexuality, what excites them and how they enjoy masturbation. Can you set that as a requirement for R? Of course you can, and, in some cases, you SHOULD. But the analogy I'd draw, in some cases, it would be like me setting a requirement for R that we're going to have sex 8 times a day (like she did with the AP) forever. Yes, it's reasonable to expect that treatment, obviously she can do it, because she did. But, reasonable or not, it's still likely to be a standard that she cannot live up to. And some women can (just like some guys can do without porn) live up to that, and despite the chaffing and physical exhaustion, you can make that part of R. But most will fail, the hurdle is too high, despite being reasonable, it's still not doable for many/most.

That's the catch isn't it. Perhaps infidelity itself is a dealbreaker for all and those at R are miracles that are few and far between.

Why do we bother to set any boundaries or requirements at all of they majority feel it will lead to failure? My opinion is that porn is not a need. It takes away from any energy and intimacy that my WH should be giving me. After multiple affairs and online antics over more than ten years....If I asked him to chose the marriage over porn and he chose porn, well there's the door. Don't let it hit in the ass on the way out.

All a Bs can do is present what THEY need for R. What the Ws chooses to do is them on them.

Edited to change WAS to WS cause my phone is stupid!

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 9:20 AM, February 28th (Thursday)]

This hasn't really been brought up in this discussion but is hugely relevant.

Why do we get married? In this day, it's not to have sex. It's to have connection - intimate, committed emotional connection. With one person. For the rest of our lives. That's the promise

Porn, scientifically is a disengager; a disconnector. It's sex without connection. It's fantasy without the responsibility.

An affair is basically a way of severing the connection. It's a contempt for the connection. It's a way of having the thrill without the intimacy.

This is also prevalent in people who disengage from their faith. Being spiritually grounded is a similar sensation to being emotionally grounded, able to make connections, to be emotionally available and present with family in the moment. This is why Bill W had so much spiritual development in the 12 steps. When we're using we are the most powerful in our own minds, even while our lives are disintegrating.

If you study much of the psychology around adult children of alcoholics, and addiction recovery, you'll find that intimacy is the crucible of the recovery process. To be that vulnerable with someone else.

The question of whether your husband wants the marriage or wants the porn is completely relevant, because his actions demonstrated his need to escape intimacy. Porn continues that disconnection. For some guys it's alcohol. For others it's gaming. That's where his IC can help him most; deal with his issues around intimacy. Once he gets to the bottom of his intimacy issues, he will find himself being more present during sex, and more satisfied, not needing the self-stimulation and disconnected gratification of porn.

Porn is a tool, to sate the insatiable urges men (and plenty of women) have. Nothing more. Trying to diagnose it as something more is a fun exercise, but sometines a cigar is cigar. And like all tools, people use them in diff ways for diff purposes. A hammer can be used to drive a nail, bludgeon someone, threaten someone not worth bludgeoning, break something, or get your toaster working again. Each user is different, you can't make a generalization and those are bad anyway (I'm guilty of that myself).

You can have opinions about whether hammers should be banned because of misuse, or because they're built by Chinese borderline-slave-labor, but they serve a purpose and in their absence, the needs will remain and something else will spring up to serve the purpose. Hammering has been a need as old as written history, why should thr need for it suddenly go away? Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that just because we have cars and the Internet and snuggies that we're not all two or three steps away from giving in to our lizard brains.

^^^ I disagree.

It's kind of futile to try over and over to explain why porn is unacceptable to a BW. It just is. And I'm completely ok with my WH chosing D over staying in a porn free marriage.

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 11:32 AM, February 28th (Thursday)]

If a wife, especially a BW, sees a problem with her spouse using the tool, I see no problem with that. We all have boundaries we expect others to respect. To each their own. Some people think R is a good idea, I am 100% against it, but that opinion is very influenced by the particular flavor of my stbx wifes infidelity and postDDay actions.

How did people have satisfying orgasms before porn came along?

How did people have satisfying orgasms before porn came along?

Good question. Seems enough men have climed in that giving it up is just to hard, even when their marriage is on the line.

So its ok for a BH to demand all the things his wW did with OM, to perform for him the same porn star sex so he can establish himself as the alpha again but a BW asks her WH to stop using porn and we are told that's just to hard

Uh, if I remember correctly, Dragonheart, the equivalent demand/boundary/coercion for a WH would be to write poetry.