SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

To me you cannot love YOURSELF when you commit such a deep betrayal so loving anyone else doesn't seem possible. By that definition no, my WS didn't love me when he cheated. He easily dismissed me in lieu of making himself feel better by using extrinsic stimuli to fill a very empty pot. Of course it didn't work and made his pot even more empty.

It is ironic that after infidelity a WS "wakes up" and realizes that they had something great all along and rather than thinking they lost something in their relationship in reality they lost themselves. And while they did permanently lost something in the relationship, they also permanently lost self respect so the hill to self love grows much larger.

Nope he didn't love me nor our children when he did this IMHO.

Ya ok, he loved me, just not enough but as RuPaul likes to say "If you can't love yourself, who the hell else are you gonna love?" Just lamenting I don't think I really have an answer. Working on accepting not knowing everything lol

I think a BS spends far too long caring whether or not their WS "loved them" while stabbing them repeatedly in the back, leaving them in a lifeless heap. The fact that this impossible to prove feeling even matters to a BS--in the face of very painful, disrespectful behaviors--shows an unhealthy attachment to a WS.

Stop letting your unhealthy attachment to your abuser cloud your judgement.

Every BS must snap the rubberband on questions like this and bring themselves back to reality. The now. What is my spouse doing to show me they love me? How is my spouse working to fix this and holding himself accountable? What am I doing to love and be good to myself? How am I growing my independence and taking care of my own needs? Do I see two people who can give this another try?

Questions about being loved are absolutely normal, but they have no answer and don't matter. We need to resist these rabbit hole thoughts and focus on loving ourselves by nurturing and enjoying all that we are, as individuals. We need to be strong and healthy, but we do not need our spouse's love. It's a want, but not a need. Push the Was I loved? distraction out of your head and watch the WS's actions as they address this crisis now. When you are feeling unloved, love yourself. It works.

I think a BS spends far too long caring whether or not their WS "loved them" while stabbing them repeatedly in the back, leaving them in a lifeless heap. The fact that this impossible to prove feeling even matters to a BS--in the face of very painful, disrespectful behaviors--shows an unhealthy attachment to a WS.

Stop letting your unhealthy attachment to your abuser cloud your judgement.

Exactly. It’s not “what they felt” that matters to me.

It’s what they DID!

Every BS must snap the rubberband on questions like this and bring themselves back to reality. The now. What is my spouse doing to show me they love me?

The thing is, how can I know he loves me NOW? I was FLOORED when I found out about the affair. Nothing in him changed. He was ALWAYS the dotting, attentive, loving husband that my friends envied. There were absolutely no signs. Even in retrospect. Things were good between us. Better than good (so I thought). No fighting. No doubts. No unexplained behavior. I've gone back over that period a million times in my head. There was nothing that said "your husband is a lying, self centered bastard."

I know he is behaving now. I track him in ways he does't know. I don't doubt he is being faithful right now. What I do doubt is my ability to tell if he means it when he tells me he loves me now.

how can I know he loves me NOW?

You can't. And I didn't say that. I said to watch what he/she is DOING now--IC, MC, reading, discussing, total transparency, accountability, lack of defensiveness, etc.

We talk about changing laws sometimes, and I'd like to change the law and make "I love you" and "I'm sorry" forbidden terms. (Just kidding, but you know what I mean.) The words don't matter, so stop listening to them. The only thing that matters is the way people treat us. And after something like this, their behavior shows you whether or not you matter. Ignore words, promises, apologies. Yuck. Useless.

My H and I do not say that we love each other even though we are better to each other, more honest with each other, more accountable to each other than we have ever been. I feel good about being me. He feels good about being him. And we are making transparent, thoughtful, authentic, honest gestures toward each other all the time.

Don't tell me you love me because I have no use for this easily said and over used word.

Show me.

I'll know.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:34 PM, May 11th (Saturday)]

Fair point. I guess I was just so floored by it all because if I looked at what he was doing--how he was treating me--during the affair, it's not different than what he was doing pre and post affair.

There were truly no signs something was amiss. I trusted he loved me because he treated me so well. I guess I'm just wishing I knew how he hid it so well.

In my opinion, loving another person is having hope of improving yourself through an other person. The problem is WS's have a shallow vision of what improvement is. Their vision is immature. They don't understand the value of being true and vulnerable, having integrity, being trustworthy.

Signed still-living, aka thread killer.

^^^^^ ^^^^^^ I know the feeling.

I will have to agree with OIN.

My FWH insists that he loved me whilst having a 7 year LTA. He always loved me. He had no intention of hurting me or leaving the marriage. Oaky, I totally believe you.

But, I say, who the fuck cares! You still did what you did. Whilst loving me. Sheesh, whatcha gonna do if you hated me?

Signed still-living, aka thread killer.

You're not a thread killer anymore than anyone else (meaning we all feel like thread killers, at times). I think the shallow part you mention is right, although I still see my H struggling with empathy. He doesn't see me like I see him. Even though he is genuinely working hard and changing.

I am too much of an empath and need to think less about other people; it's too much pressure on me and them. And my H is short on empathy, always a little selfish and over focused on his needs and views. We both need to come to the middle. We're learning.

(Some cheaters are full-on narcs. My H is not a narc, and those narc WS cannot improve much if at all. They are self-focused in a dangerously guarded and protective way.)

I know some supposedly love the person they've cheated on but frankly, from my point of view, I don't see that being the case. Nor do I see any real respect for the spouse in that situation, either.

If my current wife said to me "I f-ed another man but I want you to know I love and respect though" it would be followed by a tremendous round of laughter from me followed by a suitcase landing at her feet.

At least my ex never uttered that phrase, not that she had the chance, mind you.

There was a thread on this topic in Wayward last fall.

I think anyone who says they "loved" their BS while having an A has a completely f*cked up idea of what love is.

Personally, it's like saying I love you after I beat you to a bloody pulp. But, I believe having an A is a form of emotional rape and abuse. I actually would have preferred my WH beat the shit out of me than do what he did. At least I'd have had my agency and know WTF I was dealing with.

I think someone so broken to be able to do all the machinations required of an A (the lies, the deceit, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the covering of tracks, and - of course - the sex) is incapable of love in any meaningful sense. Love does not include the level of selfishness that transpires during an A.

I believe my WH "loved" me as best as he could. But I also believe - even at 16 months out - he doesn't have a grasp on what that means to anyone other than himself. It makes him feel good to tell himself he "loves" me, even while he continues to emotionally punch me.

There were (are) absolutely times when my behavior to my WH is less than loving. Anger has been my "go to" emotion too often when I was really afraid and hurt, so I'd vent and then it was done. In those moments I was not acting in a very loving way - I was selfish. But that kind of selfishness (why the heck can't you put the toilet seat down?) is on a very very different level then an A. Not apples and oranges.... more like peas and watermelon!

But, I say, who the fuck cares! You still did what you did. Whilst loving me. Sheesh, whatcha gonna do if you hated me?

Amen, Sister, A-friggen-men. The love my WH has/had for me is toxic to me. So who the fuck cares if he loved me?

ETA: one of my favorite songs I found post dday is "what kind of man loves like this" by Florence & the Machine. It pretty well sums it up - still.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 11:17 PM, May 13th, 2019 (Monday)]

"I love you so much, but why do you make me hit you."

Cheating is a kind of abuse. Lesser than physical, still psychologically devastating. Some, not all, have a warped sense of "love". My ex told me she loved me every single day, verbally and in texts. Didn't amount to shit. OIN is right, look at the actions not the words.

I believe it was Numb&Dumb (and if I'm incorrect, my apologies) who wrote about how he was capable of having an affair, she simply did it first

You do read my posts !!! (elated)

I think there are a lot of former waywards out there that feel there is a need to explain for other waywards. Some of them really suck at it. In all of my reading I have never found a single source that got it completely "right." Gottman comes closest of any. Further I think the cottage industry of martial self help materials realized that helping waywards feel "less bad," or even "justified," about being so broken could be a goldmine. That podcast was intended for a WS, not a BS.

Love to me is a verb. No matter how my W felt towards me during her A her actions showed me that she did not love me. If I "she didn't think of me," then lets call that what it is. Indifference in that context. Which is the opposite of love. It is my life and I get to define what love means to me. While not directly related to her A, my W and I had different ways to define love. Her was much more fairytale-esque. Althought Cinderella never cheated on the Prince with some loser on the internet who also had a glass slipper. LOL. Today we are more closely aligned.

My response whenever my W said that was " If you loving me includes you cheating on me then I don't want it."

I don't get the value of WS protesting this point because honestly does it make it any better ? No, in fact I think it makes it worse. It is the rationalization machine in overdrive to re-write the narrative of the A as less "horrible" than it actually was. You can try to shine that turd all you want, but it will still smell like shit.

Love is an action.

There is nothing loving about the actions of a WS during their affair.

Typically, the WS treats the BS like shit during the affair.

Gaslighting, verbal and emotional abuse.

Finding fault with everything the BS says,and does.

Vilifying the BS.

Lying to the BS.

Not doing their share around the house.

Taking time from their BS, and their kids,and spending it emailing,calling, texting,sexting, taking nude pics, and fucking the AP.

Exposing the BS to deadly STDs.

Exposing the family to a possible bunny boiler.

Missing important events so they can sneak off with their side piece.

There is no love in any of these actions.

They may say they love their BS. I dont believe it.

I don't believe it, either.

My WW carried on an affair for three years with my best friend. She did all of the above to me.

She did not love me during her affair.

I read the email she sent to him at the beginning of the affair, which said, "I love you will all my heart." She was right about that. She had no love for me in her heart.

She, like many WS, claims she always loved me. Fuck that. I can accept that she loved me before, and that she loves me now, but the guilt she felt for fucking me over for three years was not love, and the shame she feels now for what she did does not prove that she loved me then.

I haven't read all the replies so this may be duplicative but for me, I could not. My A was essentially an exit A. I wanted out of my marriage but lacked the integrity and strength to stand up to others' expectations of me and the permanence of marriage (religious beliefs, etc.). I used the "love feelings" I had for another to detach from my H and gain strength to end the M. (I don't mean to make that sound like a positive in any way - it's just what I did at the time.) My guess is that this is where many of the ILYBNILWY speeches come from. Some of us compartmentalize our feelings because we can't feel those love feelings for two people at once.

Most people can most def love two people at the same time and yes, they can cheat on someone they love.

That said, you can't be IN love with two people at the same time, and I don't think you can be IN love with someone and cheat on them.

Subtle difference in words but IMO a big difference in meanings.

My thought is its a combination of what others have pointed out:

1) Love is a choice. But love is also feelings and actions.

As such, a WS may have felt the love for us (mine even admitted she put it in a box way, way, way deep down) but their actions dictate otherwise. They chose not to demonstrate love toward us.

I also agree that they don't really know what love is all about, because they don't love themselves. So how can they possible love (actions) others? They view it at the surface (Feelings).

Just my thoughts.

Love is an action. Cheating is an action. You cannot love someone while you are destroying them.

You can be sexually attracted to more than one or another way of saying is to lust after more than one but love is an action and you can’t act the way a wayward acts towards a bs and still love them.

My bh sweaters he lives me the whole time. Never stopped. But it is not possible to hurt someone that bad-on purpose, day after day, week after week, year after year and day but I loved you the whole time. I don’t want that kind of love. That isn’t love that is resentment and hatred in my opinion.

I told my wh that I would have rather he stabbed me 100 times than cheat on me because it would have hurt less. I meant that then and I mean that now.

Thankfully he seems to understand love now-hopefully but I know he didn’t love me for his almost decade long a. He was dependent on my to be there and take care of w writhing in his life while he did what he felt like doing. Thats what he felt for me. Not love.