SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm not a big fan of gender stereotyping, personally. What are "male" behaviours, anyway? Scratching your balls? :P

Some people are more aggressive and some people are not. I think it makes much more sense to evaluate behaviour based on the person rather than to generalize by some old yardstick that society deems appropriate behaviour. Which, by the way, has also changed many times over the decades, so it's not like things have always been a certain way, and now they are not.

But personally, I am vastly in favour of women having more options both socially and economically to pursue the life they want, rather than the one they think they are stuck with. No fault divorce and the ease of entering the workforce has levelled the playing field and that is far more important than any setbacks in the cause of monogamy.

I don't know about national averages, but in my marriage, women cheat the most!

Seriously though...how do we know how many women cheated back in the day anyway? Having that known would likely end a woman's ability to take care of herself and her children if you go back to when we didn't tend to work or get paid much if we did. Why on earth would bored Betty housewife tell anyone she had been sleeping with another man? Not even single women tended to admit to not being virgins when they were young and unmarried, right? I wouldn't trust the first statistic that relied upon women admitting something that might cause them to be homeless and reviled no matter how anonymous it was supposed to be.

A valid perspective. We really can't know how many women cheated back in the day. I assume that it was far fewer than today. But my assumption is not based on anything more than a presupposition based on what I think I observed over my decades on earth.

But, one point of disagreement I have is the issue of virginity. When I was growing up, virginity, at least where I was located, was a big thing, a proud thing. All of my female friends, up until age 15-16, were virgins. At least based on what they said. Virginity seems to be a less desirable trait nowadays.

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 5:04 PM, October 21st (Monday)]

Fake numbers. Women won't admit it because they don't want the scarlet letter (Even if it is from strangers.)

Men feel everything is going to be ok even if they are honest. They just fall back onto the, "She didn't give me enough sex" explanation. The old sex ration defense.

I wouldn't trust the first statistic that relied upon women admitting something that might cause them to be homeless and reviled no matter how anonymous it was supposed to be.

EXACTLY. All statistics regarding cheating depend on self-reports. Before computers were commonplace, the research relied primarily on face-to-face interviews. Presumably, given the time period, it would be women being interviewed by the researchers who were presumably men. The likelihood of a woman admitting this in a face to face interview, given the financial and social repercussions, seems infinitesimally small to me.

Other research (not on infidelity, but on sexual partner count) actually shows that in face-to-face interviews men report a HIGHER # of sexual partners than if asked via anonymous computer survey. Women on the other hand, report a lower number of partners than in the anonymous computer survey. When surveyed anonymously, males and females reported similar numbers of sexual partners. 1/5 of people admitted that they would not tell the truth about their number of sexual partners DESPITE the condition of anonymity.

All of this is to say, women might be more likely to admit to cheating now vs. then, whether there has actually been a change or not in the behavior is anyone's guess.

What are "male" behaviours, anyway? Scratching your balls? :P

I think being on these forums any significant amount of time at all would tell a person those stats are bogus. Married men are not, literally, 40 times as likely as married women to cheat. That's absurd.

I've read a few studies about this and most seem to agree that, historically, men cheat more than women but recent generations have been closing that gap. Easily accessible contraception, social movements and the second wave of feminism from the 60's/70's leading to the third wave of feminism in the early 90's have given women more agency in their sex lives than they've had in...a long time I guess? I don't know, I'm not a historian.

Like others, it's tough to put a lot of validity in the numbers. Basically every study requires surveying cheaters, and cheaters aren't exactly known for their honesty.

When I was growing up, virginity, at least where I was located, was a big thing, a proud thing. All of my female friends, up until age 15-16, were virgins. At least based on what they said. Virginity seems to be a less desirable trait nowadays.

"AT LEAST BASED ON WHAT THEY SAID." I wont cast doubt on whether these young women were being honest or not but if they weren't, it wouldn't be surprising.

Despite your perception (which I wouldn't have necessarily disagreed with), I just googled it and recent research shows that the average age at which most Amercians first have sex is 17.8 for women and 18.1 for men. Moreover, those born in the 1980s and 1990s were more likely to have had zero sexual partners at age 18 than previous generations.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 5:31 PM, October 21st, 2019 (Monday)]

Despite your perception (which I wouldn't have necessarily disagreed with), I just googled it and recent research shows that the average age at which most Amercians first have sex is 17.8 for women and 18.1 for men. Moreover, those born in the 1980s and 1990s were more likely to have had zero sexual partners at age 18 than previous generations.

That's a fascinating statistic. Keep in mind, my perception was based on where and when I grew up. People growing up elsewhere, during the same time period, probably had entirely different perspectives.

Good one, Jimmy.

I think the latest General Survey which was quite recent (haven't looked it up) indicated that around 25% of men and about 20% of women have cheated. I didn't read the survey. Only a news article about it. It did say that the percent of men cheating was dropping and women was increasing IIRC about all of it.

Yeah, it's so difficult to divorce our own experience from statistics.

It's not that hard to answer; a serial adulteress can easily wind up with numbers like this. One woman can rack up dozens of "cheating men" to her credit (as can a man, IE, my W's AP, but, in answer to your question..). If it helps, think about prostitutes, how many "cheating men" can look to a single prostitute and say "that's the AP"? Could be 100's or 1000's of men, all cheaters, and only one woman, who, in most cases, isn't a cheater herself. Very easy to get to lopsided stats like this without breaking any logic laws.

One woman could rack up dozens of cheating men. Then you say so could a man. So that would nullify each other, right? Which means you still haven’t answered my question. Unless you are saying that it’s the pros who are fucking all the men?

When people read these cheating studies and balk, they always seem to think "affair", and forget that you can cheat with prostitute.

And in the heterosexual world, cheating with prostitutes definitely leans soooo much more toward men, that it will skew the statistics heavily toward "men cheat more"

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Mark Twain , who attributed it to the British prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

I don't think we can know for sure which statistic, if any, is correct.

Men are happy to cake eat but dont intend to leave but women have sometimes already left. I wonder if because alot of wws leave and wait for their aps or at dday leave even if their ap doesnt leave their spouse they dont regard themselves as cheats.

You certainly just described my personal situation, both my W and the male AP. Although, if she doesn't "regard herself as a cheat" she needs her head examined.

Are you suggesting that perhaps equality is not actually a good thing because your wife cheated with a co-worker and you think she'd rather be a SAHM? That is an outrageous premise.

No, I'm saying that my W would have been happier (per her own words) as a SAHM, she hates working. And, given her AP was a work friend, she never would have met him, ergo, no cheating. And I doubt she would have been in the crisis she was at the time absent work.

In general, I'm not suggesting that equality isn't a good thing, I am however, saying that it does not come without downsides. And this view isn't without supporters, my W would be one of them; she really didn't want to work, but equality dictated that she had to. I don't want to work either, so I totally get where she's coming from with that sentiment!

Women have always cheated.

Yes, but not in the numbers they do today. There has been a marked uptick in female cheating.

DevastatedDeeWayne

That would make a lot of my "huh, I'm surprised she holds that viewpoint" quizzical looks a lot more understandable. And, just so you know, there's nothing wrong with it, in either direction. I see men posting and cannot relate at all to their "more feminine" viewpoints, and I see women posting who I relate totally to because they present a more masculine viewpoint. So, carry one Wayne.

Now, before I get skewered, I am not talking about women in the workforce, equal pay for equal work and all that.

Yes, what you described is what I'm talking about, the more commonly male characteristics and behaviors. Going out to a bar to get blind drunk and "hook up", when I was a young man, well, that was a "man's game" when I was younger. Now, from the stories here, it sounds like a lot of women are doing that too. However, I really think you are talking about what you claim not to be, but just in a different way. Equal pay for equal work, women in the workforce, all of that pushes women into a mold of "act like a man".

Also on wayward type forums its inundated with single long term ow. There are some married ow there too. But overwhelmingly its single ow. So I dont think it's wrong to assume they hope to mate poach. While the married man cake eats and has no intention to leave for the ow. These women waste years lying to themselves.

Yes, I've been to those forums, as well as OM forums. The dichotomy is just blinding. About every 3rd post starts with some version of "He's going to leave his W next week", to which, if I could answer, would be some version of "Wake up" or a link to the OM forums where they are discussing strategy for picking up another "plate". The delusion is just off the charts for a lot of these women, and, sadly, one of those women (not on the forums, but IRL) was my WW. The statistics here are abundant and clear, affairs almost NEVER end in a lasting marriage. Thinking that's where an A is heading is delusional, yes, it does happen, just like a line cook at MCD, if you look hard enough, has been promoted to SVP; I'm sure that person exists and has a very hopeful story to tell. But the other 100 line cooks he started with, well, they all are either still flipping burgers or have moved on to other careers, your dreaming if you think "I'll be CEO one day" starting there, just like any AP (male or female) thinking "he/she loves me, we're getting married" lives in an equally ridiculous bubble.

Perhaps because the cake eaters compartmentalise more and dont feel the need to discuss or analyse their affairs.

I'm sure this is some of it. Also, I think another big part of it, the A is giving them what they want, more cake. There's no reason to "reach out for help", they are getting what they came for and enjoying it. It's not a hard question to answer for most of the men I know, and I doubt it would be hard for me to answer the "why" either. I like cake. I like it a lot. And there's a lot of cake in most affairs. Desire and reality neatly match. The only question is "why did you like cake so much that you would hurt other people to get it", and that question is also rather obvious, because I'm selfish and don't care about other people enough. Where things spin for others though is different, they are stuffing their face with cake, but they don't even really like cake. They like a 5 course meal (love, marriage, children, etc) with maybe some cake (sex) at the end. But yet, here they are, in the cake line, no dinner in sight, stuffing their face. And I do think that these people struggle more, they get just as "sick" from eating all that cake, they hurt other people just as much, and.. They don't even like cake! And I see a lot of that in this site, we don't get many WS's here who just "really like cake" because those WS's aren't spending their days trying to find a why, trying to understand what and why they did what they did. They just like cake, it was an all you can eat buffet and the price was right.

What are "male" behaviours, anyway? Scratching your balls? :P

LOL, well, yeah, but in the context of my post, I'd put NSA/affair type sex into that category too.

I just googled it and recent research shows that the average age at which most Amercians first have sex is 17.8 for women and 18.1 for men.

Interestingly, IIRC, that number is actually climbing, and, total sex numbers are falling for younger people. People blame all kinds of things, typically porn (which I think is a big part of it), but there's less sex going on now than there was when I was a kid.

One woman could rack up dozens of cheating men. Then you say so could a man. So that would nullify each other, right? Which means you still haven’t answered my question. Unless you are saying that it’s the pros who are fucking all the men?

Yes, you're right, so can a man. And most of the men I know are serials. However, the big gap here is likely professionals. Yes, a serial might rack up 10 APs over a lifetime. Maybe more, IDK, but let's use 10 as a reasonable number. A professional could knock that out before Tuesday. And given that there are basically no "professional men" in that business, I think this accounts for a lot of the gap. And that doesn't mean only "professionals", it could just mean a woman with a Tinder profile and a really high sex drive without a care as to the guy's status. That woman could easily have a different man each day of the week. While it's almost always the case that "men live at the extremes" (the richest and poorest, smartest and dumbest, etc), in this case, I think it's women who live there and skew the numbers.

compared to 1% of married women,

This is laughable.

What pure horseshit for “statistics”.

The majority of my XWW’s circle shitty friends have been unfaithful - and we are talking full-blown sexual adultery and all the lies, deception, gas-lighting, and marital-history rewriting that go with it.

I know, without question, that they would lie about it all if they were posed the question for the sake of a survey.

There is no doubt that women are as adulterous as men.

No doubt at all.

Yes, you're right, so can a man. And most of the men I know are serials. However, the big gap here is likely professionals.

How many men do you know that sleep with pros?

I'd bet the farm that men and women are both just as unfaithful given the same opportunities. Historically, maybe that opportunity didn't present itself to women quite so much, but if you had 100% accurate data and normalized those shits, you'd see women cheating almost as much if not as much as men. The histories just didn't report this fact. Why? First of all, nobody cared to ask those women about their sexual escapades. Second, there used to be something called "couth" (remember that?), and it would be incredibly uncouth for men and women alike to admit to such things--but cultural norms will vary. Third, if you asked a guy from 50 years ago and earlier, he'd probably be too proud to admit to being cheated on. A place like this would have to exist in a dimly lit basement somewhere in the middle of the night.

I try not to get lost in the trap that somehow people a hundred years ago were so drastically different. Daily norms were different, of course, but the fundamental mechanisms driving us have always been the same: provide for our families, protect our children, prevent unnecessary dangers, pick out some scapegoats to shoulder the blame, prattle on about horseshit that ultimately doesn't matter, poop, repeat.

but if you had 100% accurate data and normalized those shits, you'd see women cheating almost as much if not as much as men.

Depends on what time period your talking about. 20 years ago? Or 75-100 years ago? If we're going with the latter, I don't think you'd wind up with the result that you're expecting above (and if you're going with the first, then maybe, but stats don't support that statement, however, it could be right if there was "more lying" in the stats 20 years ago than there is today). But 75-100 years ago, I'd bet a lot of money it was a lot less common. The consequences were far greater, there was no way to control for an out of wedlock pregnancy, divorce would be an effective "Scarlet Letter" in that day. Yes, I have no doubt that cheating happened, but if it happened at the same rate as it does today, then we're basically saying that "incentives/punishments do not work, at all". Because there were very harsh punishments in those days for cheating (both imposed by society and biology) which do not exist at all today. No fault D removed all the (state imposed) punishment for an A, birth control removed the most far reaching consequence of an A. And, of course, we've gone from the "Scarlet letter" to the "You go, you deserve it" message, pretty much polar opposites of one another.

Did men cheat as much then? Perhaps, I think there are some arguments that could be made that would make me think "yes, they did", but I suspect they cheated less then too, it was a more insular and "everyone knows everyone" time in history. H/W's weren't getting on a jet to fly 3000 miles away and have some "out of town fun" with someone they'd never see again, that kind of thing was very rare. Most people worked in the town they lived in, and knew most of the people they'd see on a day to day basis.

Anyway, I think it's inarguable that "it happened" back then, our genetic record shows us that it happened with some regularity throughout human history. But I do think what we're seeing today is outside the norm, and I firmly feel that a lot of it is because we've removed the consequences that used to be associated with it, while, at the same time, coming to value "personal happiness" over all other forms of happiness as the right goal for us to achieve individually.

"God, forgive us, but ours is a monstrous system, a wrong and an inequity! Like the patriarchs of old, our men live all in one house with their wives and their concubines; and the mulattos ones sees in every family partly resemble the white children. Any lady is ready to tell you who is the father of all mulatto children in everybody’s household but her own. Those, she seems to think, drop from the clouds. My disgust sometimes is boiling over. Thank God for my country women, but alas for the men! They are probably no worse than man everywhere, but the lower the mistresses, the more degraded they must be."

From the diary of Mary Boykin Chestnut, 1861.

She was the wife of a Southern plantation owner, writing about the wealthy people she knew very well.