SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Why don't you find a counselor who can help you work through what you did? One that won't bs you, but will really help you see your issues? Because it seems like you're quick to want to tell her why you know you're the jerk and you're just awful and now can we get past this, because I know I am terrible so you don't have to say it-I just did! See how thoughtful I am being to you, by being so much better than I was?!" But I wonder if maybe she wants it to stop being about YOU, and let it be about HER. How does SHE feel, do you think? (The answer: it isn't "bad" or "horrible". It's far more specific. I'd bet more on "gutted" or "ruined", because you made her a fool, and you abused her. So if you actually DO care, please get to the point where you stop considering your own feelings on this matter. You don't get to express them now. Give her a simple, "I have been so wrong. I'm getting help, so I can learn what I did to you. It was unthinkable and heartbreaking." And. THEN. STOOOOP TAAALKINGG.

My suggestion is to find a really good IC.

It seems to me that you are using “I am an asshole” as a pass. It isn’t.

Commit to change for yourself. Then find out why you act like an asshole why you behave the way you do. Anger is part of you, why? Then learn a different way to be that doesn’t hurt others.

In the mean time. Do use a mediator, it is better for you both.

As a person who was cheated on for 10 years, with our 25th anniversary this year, he was the last person that I wanted to talk to on my anniversary. The anger and pain is high on those days, holidays, and DDays.

Help her heal. Ask her how. Then do it. It may mean you let her go. Whatever is best for her.

You sound angry and self justified in it. step back and figure out what is important for her and for you.

There's a big, red flag that stands out to me in your posts and it is posting word-for-word what your BS is saying and minimizing or completely omitting your responses to it. It's a clear attempt at manipulating our opinion of you and the situation by presenting yourself in the best possible light. I'm betting if we saw the truth - the full exchange between you and her - she would come out looking a lot more rational and compassionate while you look absolutely terrible.

Look, it doesn't matter how many times you apologize if you keep doing the thing you're apologizing for. There is no acceptable way for you to apologize, abuse or disappoint her again, and expect another apology to fix things until the next time. That's a really shitty thing for you to expect of her - to keep accepting bad and abusive behavior from you because you're "sorry". You also can't be all that sorry if you choose to keep doing things that require an apology instead of going to IC, reading books about the specific struggles you face, and actually putting work into being a person who no longer needs to apologize. Words are cheap and yours aren't worth a penny.

Everyone will tell you that the first step to fixing a problem is identifying it and owning. But what they don't specify is that you can't just stop there and assume that things will magically fix themselves. When you keep trying to own up to the problems you have created, it doesn't mean anything because it's not followed through by action. You can throw yourself on the rocks over and over again about how terrible you are and how much of a monster you are but guess what? It doesn't matter if you go right back to being a monster an hour later like it's no big deal. And that's why your BW is 110% correct about telling you your apologizes and admissions of guilt are just white noise - BECAUSE THEY ARE. Until those words are backed up by your actions - stopping the bad behavior and taking steps to ensure that you never do it again - those words are worthless.

What does it say about you that logically you see how terrible and wrong your actions are and continue to be but you won't stop them? What does it say about you that you would rather post the "worst" things your BW is saying to you in response to your attempts at manipulating her and expecting mercy for things you aren't even truly sorry for? Why are you here attempting to build an army of compassion, sympathy, and validation instead of out DOING something about your monstrous behavior?

The best thing you can do for your BW right now is to shut up. Stop engaging with her because she doesn't want to hear it. Until you start DOING things to fix yourself, ANYTHING you say - apologies, self-flagellation, anything - is making her more angry because it comes off as highly deceptive and manipulative. Until you do the work, IT IS deceptive and manipulative. ONLY talk to her through your lawyer and make this D as quick and painless as possible. If you can't stop treating her poorly with your words, stop talking. Cut the abuse off at its source.

You keep saying you were an ass. You don't believe it. If you did, you wouldn't be defensive and you wouldn't be ranting about your BS if she was acting rational or irrational. You don't have remorse yet because your pride, ego, comfortablness, and happiness come first. It is evident in the topic and your posts. She sees that. When you have remorse, those things take a backseat. You are humbled enough to not become defensive of your wife's pain because you were abusing her for 24 years and few comments that seem irrational wouldn't phase you in the least compared to the real cruelty you have inflicted on her for so long.

"You can’t, because you think you aren’t doing anything wrong while you are being an arrogant uncooperative defensive justifying minimizing asshole controlling the narrative trying to achieve your desired outcome"

Your wife and strangers are telling you the same thing. Chances are you really haven't gotten to getting it, owning it, or that point of being truly honest with yourself just how disgusted with yourself you have been. If you really had, all this background noise would not matter to you one bit. These things wouldn't be viewed as earned, consequences, or punishments...they would be viewed as obvious predictable unavoidable natural reactions to you as the stimuli action.

The big takeaway from all this. You really don't believe you were being an asshole. Your defensiveness is proof. Even in your lack of being defensive is proof. You go to both extremes- self-flagellation

I am and I feel sorry for myself-will you argue against me claiming it or defensive- I am not, you are irrational...blah...blah...blah.

Neither is ownership. Both are ways to escape real responsibility. Both show entitlement and self justification.

Real ownership. Yes, I was an asshole. Without all the fanfare or how sad it is and how you feel or what your next response will be to what she states.

You don't trust yourself. Why do you expect her to trust you? What makes you so different? Why do you expect behavior from others that YOU can't even exhibit? You don't listen. You are instantly formulating a response in your head to everything she tells you already justifying and being defensive. You have already shut down.

I see so much of my old self in you. I can see the bullshit defensiveness and passive aggressive shit. Chances are if you step back, one of your parents act the same way. It is a learned behavior you chose to adopt that you felt worked for you up until your wife had enough throughout your life because it got you what you wanted. Time to grow up and stop having adult temper tantrums. You can live better than this. You just have to be willing to accept your truths. To truly be disgusted in yourself and own it.

If you truly want to help her today, take every decisions that has her best interest at heart. If you are divorcing, go for a generous settlement. If she wants paper statements, give it to her. If she insults you, if she’s irrational, don’t reply in kind, reply kindly. Just skip all the insults and go like "ha, ok she wants this item", then comply.

Don’t do the "woe is me" game. She lived with you a long time, she knows what you are doing.

And the most important part, don’t expect anything in return.

Do you think you can be selfless? It’s very hard.

If, for example, you were to give her 3/4 of the marital assets. She may still stay very angry at you, insult you and what not.

You may never have a praise back, never a slap on the back, never a thank you, no matter how much you help her.

But tell yourself: you don’t need that. As long as she’s better off, that’s all that matters.

Makes sense?

Maybe tbis will help...

(me getting angry and barging into the house after being told I couldn't come in to use the bathroom,

If you’re told you can’t come in, don’t come in.

despite being invited in all the time and even invited to spend the night there occasionally)

Irrelevant

25 years of abuse and cheating and lies

Maybe that’s the reason she’s irrational?

I am certainly the asshole here and there is no disputing it.

"Woe is me"

nothing is working to communicate and be civil.

She won’t be civil, but you can.

This morning early(nighttime) she sent me an e-mail telling me to cancel a few things, and then around 8 she send me a messenger asking when I would send the financial plan to her.

Cancel a few things and send her the financial plan

she does not like spreadsheets).

Send it to her in whatever format, why is it important to argue about this?

You abused her for 25 years then you fight about file format? Why? You said you wanted to help her. You’re not helpful.

she went off on me saying that I was blaming her for why it was delayed

Does it matter she’s blaming you? Just try to comply without complaining. If you abused her for so long, she will be angry and she won’t be civil. That’s to be expected. Take it, then be kind. Expect nothing in return.

(although there was no date established to deliver it),

Irrelevant. "Woe is me"

She proceeded to go off on me about why I was using e-mail as a unreliable source of communication and that she had told me time and time and time again that email was not a good form of communication and what a dick I was fo not respecting her.

Print it then, what’s the issue? Do you want to help her or not?

She will be angry. Be selfless. Take it, comply to what she asks, be civil to her in return, because it’s the right thing to do, not because you expect anything in return.

Hope that helps...

Shutter broke it all down for you. And on top of all that, you need a good IC. If you like your IC, they aren't doing you any favors. You need to find an IC that you really hate.

25 years is a long time to build these defenses and if you ever hope to be truly happy, you are going to need some serious rebuilding.

As for your soon to be EXBS. You need to leave her alone. She's dealing with enough crap that she doesn't need you adding to it. The only way she will get any clarity is for you to leave her alone and the only way you can partly redeem yourself is to not fight for anything in the divorce. Give her anything that she asks for. She's earned it. I know this will be hard for you because for 25 years, you had to put her down to justify the affairs and not feel bad for what you were deciding to do.

There are two victims in this story. Your wife because of your decisions and if you want to play the victim... You are also a victim of your own bad life choices. As a counselor said to my now EXWH, you can date, but you have to divorce first. You just weren't brave enough to do that and treat your wife with respect. Remember that.

The best thing you can do for your BW right now is to shut up. Stop engaging with her because she doesn't want to hear it. Until you start DOING things to fix yourself, ANYTHING you say - apologies, self-flagellation, anything - is making her more angry because it comes off as highly deceptive and manipulative. Until you do the work, IT IS deceptive and manipulative.

This is so true. The words don’t mean anything and on top of that they’re selfish and manipulative. It took me a while to figure that out. I apologized over and over again like every time my mouth opened I said I’m sorry and my BH told me that he didn’t want to hear it because it meant nothing to him. And I had convinced myself that I was saying it to help him but really I was trying to make myself feel better by apologizing and letting him know how I felt. I wanted him to know I loved him and I didn’t wa t him to divorce me. See? It was about me, not really about him. What he needed from me was to process my A and observe my actions and behavior after DDay. He wanted to see what I was doing, not listen to what I was saying. And he wanted me to respect him enough to respect his boundaries. I admittedly still apologized, but I toned it down a lot and started focusing on the things I had to do.

Your words don’t matter to her. She’s told you this so ignoring her and still talking to her is just piling on more hurt and proving to her that you don’t respect her. You’re getting good advice here, even if it’s a little harsh. I hope you take it to heart.

There are two things I think can help you right now. I've seen them both listed in this thread but I want to put a spotlight on them.

1. Your first response to your BS is going to be wrong. Everytime you communicate with her remember "first response wrong." This is the mindfulness people have mentioned.

2. You don't GET to be the victim so STOP that right now. You may feel disrespected, weak or having to deal with hypocrisy but it's really the OPPOSITE. Opposite.

I had convinced myself that I was saying it to help him but really I was trying to make myself feel better by apologizing and letting him know how I felt. I wanted him to know I loved him and I didn’t wa t him to divorce me. See? It was about me, not really about him. What he needed from me was to process my A and observe my actions and behavior after DDay. He wanted to see what I was doing, not listen to what I was saying. And he wanted me to respect him enough to respect his boundaries

ding ding ding.

I thought someone had a 'down & dirty' (kind of like a stop/look/listen thing)for how to pivot from knee jerk selfishness to empathy, but for the life of me I can't remember it ....

Gmc94 thank you, I will look into that book.

I have turned over so many “new leafs” that the idea of “I’m going to be different this year” statement is meaningless. All of your collective comments and feedback is helpful and appreciated. I have a lot of learning and growing to do while I try to always keep the perspective of how hurt and destroyed she is and how the consequence of my actions impact her every single day.

Have you been evaluated for ADHD?

I try to always keep the perspective of how hurt and destroyed she is and how the consequence of my actions impact her every single day.

I will try to say this as kindly as possible but you really need to reframe your thinking. You did not destroy your wife. She is not 'hurt and destroyed." You hurt her. Your actions hurt her. Your words hurt her. But you clearly did not destroy her. And the consequences of your actions impact her everyday? No. Your actions impact her everyday. And she is living with those consequences.

Please take responsibility of what youve done. Because im not sure you have.

^^^^^^^ I've read this is important for waywards - to learn to use ACTIVE language with respect to the fallout/consequences of their A(s).

"My BS is hurt" is psychologically different than "I hurt my BS"

LLXC and gmc94 I think I understand your point. Active language and acknowledgment of my actions. I no longer want to try and put distance between me and my actions; I must accept responsibility. I will work on this, thank you.

[This message edited by wantstorepair at 3:55 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Dude, honestly, whatever you do, don't attempt reconciliation. You would just further ruin her life.

You act despicably for over two decades and now get offended by her? You are not mature enough to be married to your wife. You make statements about accepting responsibility, but it's obvious to me that you grit your teeth when you make those claims. Get your shit together.

Based on YOUR description of the things you've done to your wife, not just through infidelity, but through what appears to be emotional abuse, and maybe physical abuse, I am nominating your wife for sainthood for putting up with you at all.

Get rid of your pride. Get rid of your self-indulgence. We all would like to be the hero in our own stories, but honestly, you don't qualify for a hero’s pedestal.

I am usually kind and reasonable in my response, but your gluttonous stupidity and disrespect for your wife galls me. GROW UP!

WantsToRepair, I often think that people's usernames say a lot about them, and yours is a case in point.

You WANT to repair. You have the intention and the desire. It's foremost on your mind and your continued failure compounds your problems. But you lack the skill. Just wanting is not enough. It's like handing you a scalpel to perform life-saving surgery on your wife, and you have no training and you are terrified and the manual is missing and anyway it's written in a foreign language. You'll probably do more harm than good.

And it's not just about behavior modification (as in, just stop this and do that instead) and skills. You need deep and lasting healing and the behavior will then emanate from that. The best surgeon in the world probably doesn't do a good job when their emotions are high and they don't have ways to manage them.

I'm sure people have given you good advice in this thread (I only read your posts) and I'm not saying to not do what they said. But my advice is to back off as much as possible and work hard through ICC, self help books, journaling, talking to trusted people, etc to understand where your impulses and emotions come from, and learn to manage them instead them managing you.

And you have a very good reason to get working right now. If not for your wife's sake - though anything you are able to do better will help her a little - your kids are going to be teens at some point and THEY will need you to be steady. Even if your wife is a saint and never says a word against you, they will have mixed feelings about what happened on top of typical adolescent development and challenges. So get to work now, for their sake. One of the best things you can do for your wife is to be a good father, and on current trajectory you're likely to have a difficult relationship and drift away from them, which would be tragic.

t/j

Hallmack, a good friend and wise person told me once "let peace be your umpire." What she meant was not to be nice all the time. She meant to make sure you have a peaceful heart about what you are doing. So if you want to come to the wayward forum and call someone a greasy lizard, or whatever adjective/noun combo, and you are doing with with a peaceful heart, believing that what you are doing will be helpful to the person you are talking to, then by all means proceed with the greasy lizard comment or whatever it is. I've never regretted posts I've made with a peaceful heart, and sometimes have regretted ones made in high emotion. Prayer helps me to settle, and time. It's a good rule of thumb.

i agree with everyone here you are being a total asshole but so was I 2 weeks ago.

as someone who just realized all the damage I was causing (on top of the A's) by not realizing i was not getting it and being defensive, i can say that the last 2 weeks have been completely different with my BH.

2 weeks ago i was ready to walk out because i couldn't handle the rage from BH. I thought that he was over reacting when he burned and tore up my clothes. who is he to make me feel so small and insignificant??

my car is packed im about to leave and he sat me down and said the most beautiful things to me, to the person who has humiliated him, destroyed his heart, and made him feel worthless. he told me even that after all the betrayals he is STILL here because he loves me. this man thinks I'm 99% perfect, it's that 1% that hurts him so deeply. he can't imagine living life without me. I truly don't deserve this man.

we have been going to IC and started MC this week. we are going to church and have signed up to an online 13 week course. I'm looking for a SLAA group too.

none of this would have happened until i took a hard look at myself and realized that I'm an awful human being. realized all the damage I've caused not only to my BH but to our kids. I don't want to be like this anymore, even if after trying and it doesn't work out i don't want to cause this to anyone else.

once you decide you want to change start by figuring out why you are this way.

this helped me: https://www.wmww.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=617173

Thank you Ididntlisten for sending me this link back to DaddyDom. There is so much here for me to change. this is a great post she did and I appreciate you directing me there.