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For me...simply said...being put on a pedestal would be too much pressure. To measure up.

Also, some people don’t want their good deeds, positive personality traits to be openly displayed.

But TBH, at this point I my life, a little pedestal would be nice!

My H used to love - maybe even treasure me. When we would go to sporting events for our boys, our male friends used to tease him for sitting with me instead of “the guys”.

When I was aware of this, I would encourage him to go...but it was pretty nice to be first choice.

I think a woman who knows her own true self-worth doesn't want to be artificially inflated by being "put on a pedestal."

She wants to be valued for who she is and what she brings to the relationship. She wants to be loved and encouraged and supported. She wants to be free to give the same to her partner. Kindness and gentleness to and with each other should be limitless, and should never be withheld as a "punishment;" (that is the way of the manipulative folks among us).

Loved the response from Cat. No I don't want to be put on a pedestal I want mutual respect.

On the topic of feeling uncomfortable when you don’t pay:

I feel like I relate to this by way of feeling uncomfortable when people pay for me. I used to feel that when someone paid for me it meant that now I was indebted to them. I’d have to pay for them in return the next time. It felt uncomfortable to have someone do something for me without me internalizing it as an IOU. It actually gave me a lot of anxiety, and I felt uncomfortable having to go out with them (if I knew they’d pay and wouldn’t allow for me to do so in return) part of me felt like I was taking advantage, even though I knew I wasn’t. Therapy has helped me overcome this quite a bit! I recommend.

[This message edited by maise at 2:15 PM, October 20th (Tuesday)]

But TBH, at this point I my life, a little pedestal would be nice!

My H used to love - maybe even treasure me. When we would go to sporting events for our boys, our male friends used to tease him for sitting with me instead of “the guys”.

When I was aware of this, I would encourage him to go...but it was pretty nice to be first choice.

I find all the responses fascinating. I think for me I have two big attributes in my personality that, as Adrian Monk would say, are a blessing and a curse: honor and respect.

Now, I realize my wife has been dishonorable and disrespectful toward me. Less so recently, but overall that is the case.

I try to offer honor and respect to everyone, up until the point they absolutely do not deserve either. Perhaps my FWW deserves neither, but she is the one person I choose to honor and respect despite my misgivings about her behavior.

This entire thread has been so fascinating for me as I am learning that being good to my wife our entire marriage may not be something a woman would enjoy. Hard for me to fathom I've been doing this wrong all my life.

If y'all would allow me to ask a few questions to the women here:

Ladies,

1.) On a date should the man, woman pay for the date or go Dutch?

2.) Is it ok for your husband to shower you with gifts, not to buy affection, but to show you he loves you and is thinking about you?

3.) When you are out in public, would you prefer your husband to not notice you or to be proud and excited to be by your side?

4.) Is his money his, and your money yours?

5.) Would you resent it if your husband made plans to take you on a dream vacation, some place you've always wanted to go?

6.) As his spouse should you have complete access to all the finances?

I'll probably come up with a few more, but these will do for now.

You've all been a tremendous and humbling help to me. Thanks.

1.) On a date should the man, woman pay for the date or go Dutch?

If it's a first date, I would prefer Dutch, but I have also had men want to treat, and I'm gracious about that. Further into the relationship, if I initiate an activity, I expect to pay. In my experience, though, most men of my age group like treating women, so I try and hold up my end by making dinners, baking bread and sweets (if they like them). I find that is generally appreciated. If it's not, I figure something else out as a sign of gratitude and appreciate. Not "tit for tat," necessarily, but a show of thankfulness and appreciation. I think those things are important, and I have yet to find a man who isn't appreciative of a good home-cooked meal.

2.) Is it ok for your husband to shower you with gifts, not to buy affection, but to show you he loves you and is thinking about you?

I'm not sure I'm okay with a "shower," but the occasional "just because" gift is certainly appreciated. I used to do those for my now-ex, especially if I saw something I knew he would like. Maybe I would feel a little differently about it if my now-ex had ever bought me anything that showed he knew me as a person. His idea of a "just because" gift would generally be something he would enjoy, not something that would be something I would like or even enjoy.

3.) When you are out in public, would you prefer your husband to not notice you or to be proud and excited to be by your side?

I want my partner to be happy and proud we're together. We don't have to be glued at the hip, but I do want to enjoy his company as well as the company of others.

4.) Is his money his, and your money yours?

We pooled funds, but he also had his own business, and he used it to fund things he knew I wouldn't approve of. I feel that whatever works for a couple is fine--but it has to be okay with BOTH parties to work. Obviously, I feel trust is important in any relationship, but financial fidelity is part of that.

5.) Would you resent it if your husband made plans to take you on a dream vacation, some place you've always wanted to go?

Absolutely not.

6.) As his spouse should you have complete access to all the finances?

As above, I think finances are one of those situations where one size does not fit all. As long as both parties are fine with the way finances are handled and neither has been bullied or coerced into something they do not agree with, how a couple manages their finances is private.

For me, I would be fine with pooling funds with the exception of perhaps a "madcap" account, but it would depend on my partner and his feelings about such things. I'm very frugal and not a big spender.

Bottom line: a couple has to agree with how they are comfortable operating as a unit. There is no one size fits all.

Cat

1.) On a date should the man, woman pay for the date or go Dutch?

I think on the first date, the person who asked should pay.

2.) Is it ok for your husband to shower you with gifts, not to buy affection, but to show you he loves you and is thinking about you?

I have never had this experience of being “showered” with either gifts OR affection, so I wouldn’t know.

3.) When you are out in public, would you prefer your husband to not notice you or to be proud and excited to be by your side?

Again, what I would prefer and what the reality has always been are very different.

4.) Is his money his, and your money yours?

While I do work, my husband makes quite a bit more than I do at the moment (this will change in a few months). So, I tend to feel that the money is more “his.” Again, my circumstances will change soon, so I will feel differently.

5.) Would you resent it if your husband made plans to take you on a dream vacation, some place you've always wanted to go?

No, I wouldn’t resent it, but it’s never going to happen.

6.) As his spouse should you have complete access to all the finances?

Major things like life insurance policy, # of bank accounts and basic info in case something happened to him, yes. An accounting of every $ he spends and on what, or his CC statement? No thanks, not interested.

1.) On a date should the man, woman pay for the date or go Dutch?

First dates I am generally okay if the man wants to pay, but I don't have an issue splitting the bill either. I always at least offer to split.

2.) Is it ok for your husband to shower you with gifts, not to buy affection, but to show you he loves you and is thinking about you?

I mean - who doesn't enjoy presents? But I would rather gift giving be for bdays/anniversaries/holidays, with here-and-there little gifts at other times - ex: I have a friend who likes snails. Once every so often, I see a snail-thing when I am out and about and buy it for her just 'because'. I don't mind those kinds of things, but being 'showered' in gifts to me would just feel disingenuous in fairly short order.

3.) When you are out in public, would you prefer your husband to not notice you or to be proud and excited to be by your side?

This is entirely dependent on the person. I don't mind hand-holding and that kind of stuff. I like being introduced. I like knowing my SO is proud to do those things. I would not like it if my introduction was overly flowery (think "this is the love of my life/better half/reason for being" type words).

4.) Is his money his, and your money yours?

This is also entirely dependent on the couple. I have known some that split everything, I have known some that keep everything separate. For me? I won't ever do a joint-account again unless I am with someone who makes roughly the same as me and even then would only consider a joint account for shared expenses (bills, rent, groceries). Either way is fine so long as both parties are on board I think.

5.) Would you resent it if your husband made plans to take you on a dream vacation, some place you've always wanted to go?

OK this one I would love! I am always the planner never the planned upon.

6.) As his spouse should you have complete access to all the finances?

Finances are just a touchy subject. Yes, I think all pertinent financial matters should be discussed and agreed upon. I think access to everything should go both ways if you have joint accounts. If it was agreed that finances would be kept separate?? Ehhh, I can see the argument on both sides in that case.

Years ago these were my date manners : If wasnt planning to see the guy again there is no way Id let a guy pay for me on a first date . If i let him pay first date the second date would be my turn .

The Women i knew who were primarily looking to be a stay at home spouse would not date that way because they were looking for a different dynamic / different type of spouse

My husband and I earn the same so i think the rest of my answers arent relevant. We buy each other gifts we are both proud of each other we plan our vacations and contribute the same .

[This message edited by siracha at 3:12 PM, October 20th (Tuesday)]

I’ll play...

1.) On a date should the man, woman pay for the date or go Dutch?

Whoever asked, if “single / dating”

If married, whoever has the card handy

2.) Is it ok for your husband to shower you with gifts, not to buy affection, but to show you he loves you and is thinking about you?

Nice gifts for special occasions. Sweet tokens just because. Like notes, wild flowers, a sexy text.

3.) When you are out in public, would you prefer your husband to not notice you or to be proud and excited to be by your side?

Both should be proud and excited to be by the other’s side

4.) Is his money his, and your money yours?

Absolutely NOT. Perhaps 3 accounts: one for financial obligations and common $; then 1 each for personal preferences. My sister and BIL did this and it made sense to me. Most of their money dumped together. But extra or a % put in an individual acct for each one’s preferences. My sister loved jewelry, and BIL loved tools. But I am actually all for the money together.

5.) Would you resent it if your husband made plans to take you on a dream vacation, some place you've always wanted to go?

WHAT??? Oh hell no. I would LOVE it. Especially if he put the effort into getting it set up.

6.) As his spouse should you have complete access to all the finances?

Absolutely. And if I wasn’t comfortable with that, I would question the relationship. However, the reason we are all here tends to call that one in the question, doesn’t it?

Putting someone on a pedestal means you aren't seeing them as they truly are. And I agree that it's unhealthy to do that.

It has nothing to do with wanting to be treated poorly. It has to do with wanting to be seen for who one truly is.

I was invited out by a group of friends and when it came time to pay the bill they didn't have money.

I paid for everybody and for some reason it has stuck with me

You do realize they took advantage of you, of your kindness, of your likely codependency? Of course you do. That's why it stuck with you. Did they ever pay you back? Did you have any boundaries?

I try to offer honor and respect to everyone, up until the point they absolutely do not deserve either.

Quite curious how badly they have to treat you. Now I understand your overly "generous" attitude toward forgiving a wife that really doesn't deserve it.

I am learning that being good to my wife our entire marriage may not be something a woman would enjoy. Hard for me to fathom I've been doing this wrong all my life.

Ahhh, now we are getting somewhere. I am reminded of an Ann Lander's column that I cut out of the newspaper about 30 years ago (shout out to anyone who knows what I'm talking about--Ann Lander's and cutting things out of newspapers! Lol). The title was, "The difference between nice guys and doormats." A guy just like you had written her with questions just like yours.

Is it ok for your husband to shower you with gifts

So I get it now. Your whole life you have showered gifts upon people who invite you to lunch but don't have money and cheat on you but don't want divorce. The problem is your believing that you can control the outcome through kindness--you cannot. Codependency 101. You establish relationships that are mutually loving and giving, not relationships that are lopsided but "you don't mind. You love to give!" Nope.

Here's the problem. When people disrespect you or push up against a necessary boundary and find out you don't care and "shower them with gifts anyway," they know you have no respect for yourself. They know your true secret--you are excellent at loving others and horrible at loving yourself. And then they take advantage because...why not? They know you won't stop them from doing whatever they want.

Time for a shrink?

Yep!

And I go back to my original answer: those who put someone on a pedestal have low self-esteem.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:33 PM, October 20th (Tuesday)]

Maybe I’m missing some nuance here, but as a woman I have to say that there is a wide gulf between putting a woman on a pedestal, which I think is unhealthy for everyone, and treating a woman like they are worthless, which is just flat out morally wrong.

I also don’t think nice guy automatically means doormat. No one should be a doormat. Everyone should be nice. And kind. WS treated me horribly. Put me through hell. I want a nice guy,

I also don’t think nice guy automatically means doormat.

No, of course not. The Ann Landers article was that there is a difference between being a nice guy and being a doormat, but "doormats" don't see it and think they are merely being nice. Which also seems to be 36yearsgone's confusion when starting this thread imo.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:36 PM, October 20th (Tuesday)]

In general through this thread, Cat's answers would almost exactly be my own. But let me try...

1.) On a date should the man, woman pay for the date or go Dutch?

First few dates, whomever asked the other out. I tried to be gracious when I started dating after my D, but it always kinda bothered me if a guy paid.

2.) Is it ok for your husband to shower you with gifts, not to buy affection, but to show you he loves you and is thinking about you?

Showered? Gifts he could afford? Gifts I couldn't afford? it would probably make me uncomfortable. Little things, I would love. My current SO used to buy me a lot of expensive jewelry. Not only were most of the pieces not my taste at all, but as a healthcare worker I take masks, gowns, hair coverings off my head all the time and loose things all.the.time. Even if they were more my taste, I don't want expensive things. I'd rather have 10 cool nice earrings than one expensive pair that I'd only wear rarely. He officially isn't allowed to buy me jewelry anymore after last Christmas

3.) When you are out in public, would you prefer your husband to not notice you or to be proud and excited to be by your side?

Proud and excited, but not clingy, that would be a nightmare.

4.) Is his money his, and your money yours?

Yes, for the most part. But I'm tight and he is not, and he makes a lot more than me, so it would be easy for me to say that!

5.) Would you resent it if your husband made plans to take you on a dream vacation, some place you've always wanted to go?

It would be nice, but only if I didn't end up having to plan all the details like usual. Like where the kids will go, the dogs, arranging time off (hard at a hospital) etc. Vacations are very hard for me.

6.) As his spouse should you have complete access to all the finances?

Maybe not access, but knowledge.

I am learning that being good to my wife our entire marriage may not be something a woman would enjoy. Hard for me to fathom I've been doing this wrong all my life

I've read every comment here. How did you get that women might not like being treated well from these comments?

First. ALL PEOPLE want to be treated with kindness and respect. That is treating someone well. I sincerely hope your wife treats you that way.

Second. Putting someone on a pedestal is not treating them well. It is idealizing them. It is not seeing tjem for who you are. No human should be out on a pedestal, period.

Third. Some women like being paid for and all that. Some do not. That is not the same as being treated well.

Finally.

I try to offer honor and respect to everyone, up until the point they absolutely do not deserve either. Perhaps my FWW deserves neither, but she is the one person I choose to honor and respect

Based on everything you've written, how is your wife not one of the people who does not deserve your honor and respect?

But also. This is your life. As long as your behavior doesn't result in you feeling resentful, all good.

And finally. I hate PDAs

I like being introduced to friends. I don't care if he is sooo happy to be with me. It didn't stop my ex from ALSO lying about everything. I want honesty, respect, and attraction. Everything else can fall in the wayside.

As for the date. For the first saw, whoever asks, pays. After that, dutch.

36,

I’m so confused. It’s as though we are on different planets. How, from all of these responses, are you able to surmise that women don’t like being treated well? On the contrary, the majority of the replies discuss that we want kindness and respect and mutual admiration. We want an emotionally available partner who lifts us up when we want to fall. Where in those descriptions does it mean we would rather be treated like shit?

The flaw in all of this is that you seem to be equating buying gifts and sharing money with treating your spouse well. Those things are nice, but they aren’t a sign of true intimacy. My ex WH used to get me flowers from 1-800 flowers. Sure, flowers are nice and I was always grateful, but when it comes down to it, 1-800 flowers is about the laziest gift you can give. It takes zero thought. A handwritten love note and a few wild flowers that he picked on the side of the road would have been more sweet and intimate. It would have taken thought and more effort than dialing the phone.

I don’t know why you would give even the laziest of gifts to someone who doesn’t seem to appreciate or want them. If that’s the only way you know how to show affection, that’s when I would say it may be time for some therapy.

I am from earth. I have not surmised that women don't want to be treated well. I also don't equate money with treating women, my spouse well.

I try to treat all people well, regardless of my socio-economic status.

You said this

I am learning that being good to my wife our entire marriage may not be something a woman would enjoy

.How does that equate with

I have not surmised that women don't want to be treated well

?

That seems...contradictory.

It is simple. Women want to be tested with kindness, love, and respect. They do not want to be put on a pedestal.

It sounds like you've spoiled your wife. And it seems like she doesn't like it. It is hard to tell what it is you actually want.

LLXC:

Context is everything.

Let me be quite clear. Prior to D-day my wife asked me to stop putting her on a pedestal, This was the first time I can remember her ever saying such a thing. The purpose of this post was to explore her comment.

You have stated that two of my comments seem to be at odds with each other. When context is added, they are not at odds. But, let's deal with them:

I am learning that being good to my wife our entire marriage may not be something a woman would enjoy

I have not surmised that women don't want to be treated well

Let's deal with the first quote. Start by defining the word "good." Good can be defined as: morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree.

For my purpose I would define it her as striving to be morally excellent and satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree.

I have taken care of my wife for nearly 40 years. I have done for her. I have held her in high-esteem at least until her affair. I have provided her with quality things. Many she has asked for, others that I have come across and thought to myself, she might like to have this.

Now, I have read every response to my post and was surprised to see how others have defined the word pedestal. Some have mentioned a dislike for being on a pedestal. When I hear many saying that, I pay closer attention. Being a man, I don't always understand the way a woman thinks. That is not a sexist comment, merely me being open about my shortcomings. I also notice that many seem to dislike the way I approach loving my wife, but I also have not surmised that women don't want to be treated well. You seem to think the two comments are in opposition. I say they are not mutually exclusive.

It is simple. Women want to be tested with kindness, love, and respect. They do not want to be put on a pedestal.

I accept that as your belief. Whether or not you are speaking for all women, I can't say.

It sounds like you've spoiled your wife. And it seems like she doesn't like it. It is hard to tell what it is you actually want.

It seems to me you haven't paid attention to the context. Yes, I have spoiled my wife. You claim she doesn't like it. I disagree. She loved it up until she had her affair. Is it not possible she used the "pedestal" as justification for her affair? You seem to assume much about me and I appreciate you questioning me without making adamant accusations.

You say it is hard to tell what I actually want? Interesting perspective. Ask me specific questions and I will give you specific answers.

In the meantime, I will stick with the original intent of this thread, but please feel free to interject whenever you feel the need.

In conclusion, I think women are wonderful and at times, the best part of God's creation. They should be treated with honor and respect. I believe husbands should be there for them; listen to them, do their best to provide for them; act with integrity toward them and the marriage, treat them like equals, and surprise them with with positive things when one can.

Yes, I have spoiled my wife. You claim she doesn't like it. I disagree.

She probably did enjoy it, but see below for my interpretation.

She loved it up until she had her affair. Is it not possible she used the "pedestal" as justification for her affair?

My thought is that once she started with the affair, her guilt and self-shame made her feel undeserving of your love and affection (this is quite common with people who engage in affairs). Instead of working on this, coming clean, dealing with the fallout of the affair and striving to be a better person, she looked for things in you and the marriage to blame for her choices and actions.

She seems to be the kind of person who is probably not going to face her shortcomings and strive for self-betterment. Therefore, it is necessary for her to seek out things with you and the marriage upon which to pin fault.

Cat