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Stevesn,

I totally agree on the IC thing. I am insisting on that and we will make it happen, if not for us, at least for her. She needs it.

I think you are right about needing to see compassion for me and what she did to me.

I can feel some, but I think she is still struggling with what she did and why. I feel like she can't totally come to grips with what she did and how it hurt me. I see she knows she hurt me and hates that, but she hasn't come to an understanding of why yet.

M1965,

Part of the problem with my background is that things tend to go the interrogation route, looking for inconsistencies and answers that don't make sense. This makes her defensive. Double edged sword I guess.

I think your analysis of her need for external validation is totally accurate. I believe she was more emotionally invested than she believes, not because she loved him, but because of the emotional need for feeling desirable he met. Somehow he picked up on what she felt she needed and exploited it. Still doesn't excuse what she did, but he clearly used her. She still doesn't see it that way.

I think she is afraid to admit she let the demon of her abuse out of the box, that what she fought so hard to control got the better of her. Until she can admit that and get help for it, she will never heal herself.

That means I can not heal and the marriage is toast.

Hi Achilles,

I think she is still struggling with what she did and why. I feel like she can't totally come to grips with what she did and how it hurt me. I see she knows she hurt me and hates that, but she hasn't come to an understanding of why yet.

It takes time for some waywards to take ownership of and responsibility for the damage they have inflicted on the people who loved and trusted them. The process is not helped by all the lies they tell themselves to enable their affair, like "He/she wouldn't care if he/she knew", "It doesn't matter, because he/she doesn't know about it", etc, etc.

Your wife admitted that she mentally put two men into convenient compartments, so that she had a work husband and a home husband. I think she may be resisting abandoning that delusion, because to feel truly remorseful towards you, she has to feel bad about herself.

Part of the problem with my background is that things tend to go the interrogation route, looking for inconsistencies and answers that don't make sense. This makes her defensive. Double edged sword I guess.

I think that your wife is still trying to minimize what she did, and she will resist any attempt to get her to be more open, regardless of the approach that you take.

She would probably love you to rug-sweep and not analyze her statements, but that would not be healthy for you, and most betrayed spouses want to know details, even at the risk of being hurt by them.

The more she reveals, the more she has to feel bad about, so it may continue to be a struggle to get her to open up. I recall that her affair timeline was very light on details, and only mentioned her affair partner, not any events that included you, possibly because of her compartmentalizing. Do you think you will ask her to continue working on the timeline, of have you abandoned the idea?

Really, the priority at this stage is for you to get all of the answers that you need. So using direct questioning has to be a part of that. However, could you supplement that by asking your wife to write an account of her affair in her own words? You could frame it as an opportunity to state her side of things, to describe what she was thinking over the four years.

In the same vein, you could perhaps ask her some open questions, and let her go away, think, and write her response. Sure, you may get a load of deluded airbrushing and avoidance, but at least it would get around the defensiveness you encounter when you ask direct questions face-to-face.

I believe she was more emotionally invested than she believes, not because she loved him, but because of the emotional need for feeling desirable he met. Somehow he picked up on what she felt she needed and exploited it.

It is possible that she does not understand that what she has is like an addiction or dependency. It can be hard for people to admit that their dependency controls them, rather than the other way round. Your wife may be in denial about it, or she may be so used to it being a part of her that she sees it as normal.

As for her AP picking up on your wife's vulnerability/dependency, I do not think he was any kind of psychiatric expert. He probably just tried a few moves that worked in the past, and your wife responded to them. It's like a fisherman throwing a hook into a river and waiting for a fish to bite. That is how opportunists operate, and the chances are that this was not his first rodeo, as the expression goes.

Still doesn't excuse what she did, but he clearly used her. She still doesn't see it that way.

I am sure the man has absolutely no respect for women, and when you have no respect for people, it is easy to manipulate them to get what you want. However, your wife was also using him just as much. He used her for free sex, and she used him to feed her unhealthy dependency. Many affairs are basically two people using each other, often for different things.

Affairs frequently exist in a fantasy world, because the reality of them is pretty cheap and tawdry, often verging on the pathetic. Is it possible that your wife enjoyed the delusion that she was controlling two men while she was having the affair?

If so, the last thing she wants to consider, let alone accept, is that she may have been used by an opportunist who pulled her strings like a puppeteer. Particularly if she thought she was pulling his strings, because her desirability made him her 'slave'.

A smart male opportunist will play up to that, because it gets him what he wants. And the woman will willingly accept even the most blatant bullshit, because she wants it to be true. It is another aspect of the dependency on external validation.

It can be difficult to get sense out of someone who is in a state of both delusion and denial, because it is like dealing with someone who is high on a drug of their own making.

It takes a lot for an addict to walk into a room full of strangers and say, "My name is Dave, and I am an alcoholic". I hope that your wife will find the strength to make a similar life-changing admission, just as you do.

I'm repeating essentially part of M1965's post, a little blunter, and with some of my experience.

Part of the problem with my background is that things tend to go the interrogation route, looking for inconsistencies and answers that don't make sense. This makes her defensive.

IMO, interrogation is entirely appropriate in the aftermath of an A.

Your W chooses to get defensive.

Part of my W's decision to end her A in the wee hours of 12/22/10 was to tell the truth. I had to ask, but she wasn't going to lie. She looked awful as she answered my questions. She felt awful. But she answered my questions as simply and clearly as she could, and she answered all questions of fact about what she did, said, and felt to my satisfaction. That started on d-day and hasn't changed.

To be a good candidate for R, your W has to get to that point.

Your interrogation approach isn't the problem. The problem is that your W isn't yet taking responsibility for herself.

That's 2 different people with 2 different experiences coming to the same conclusion....

M1965,

I told my wife that I wanted to go over everything about the affair again. My mind is clearer now and I think I can stay more focused and ask questions that can clarify things for me. She agreed to do that. I plan to use her written timeline as a reference.

I agree AP was was no psychiatric expert. What I do believe was my wife gave enough information that she was vulnerable, either wittingly or unwittingly, and he was able to use that to his advantage. They were coworkers and friends so they talked about family and what not.

It does seem, based on what AP did and how he played things, that this was not his first rodeo.

Along those lines one of the things I could not understand was his repeatedly telling her it had to end and then saying he missed her and it starting up again. I thought it was a clear sign of her being used and how could she be so stupid. She told me it came across to her that no matter what he couldn't give her up. I see now huge validation for her.

I get she was also using him, but she was clearly not in control of things.

Fantasy is a word she uses a lot. I don't really get it but I guess it helped her justify what she was doing.

Sisoon,

I don't think she is totally ready to admit the real reason she had the affair. That would unleash all her inner demons she thought she had under control.

Just like she thought she had the affair under control.

So last night after talking she messages her doctor to ask for IC, so I think progress. Today, not sure how it came up or why, I ask her if she had met OBS before she started flirting with AP. She said she thought she had when OBS came to work. She also said OBS and AP brought their baby to work shortly after the physical part of the affair started. I asked her how she felt about that. She replied she felt guilty and thought it would end the affair, uh, no. Anyways she tells me she held the baby. I utter a short exclamation of disbelief. She says what is she supposed to do, say I can't hold your baby because I am having an affair with your husband? Besides she likes babies.

I am incredulous at the hypocrisy and make a stupid comment, it goes down hill from there.

So, I guess I feel like a yoyo, up, down, up, down.

Hi Achilles,

What I do believe was my wife gave enough information that she was vulnerable, either wittingly or unwittingly, and he was able to use that to his advantage. They were coworkers and friends so they talked about family and what not.

I am sure you must have asked your wife what she said to him, but whatever it was, it clearly sent a signal to him that she might be open to him taking things further. And when he did, she did not shut him down, which sent a further signal.

Along those lines one of the things I could not understand was his repeatedly telling her it had to end and then saying he missed her and it starting up again.

The key thing to grasp in relation to the affair is to get away from giving it a life or intelligence of its own, as in "...it starting up again". The truth is that both your wife and her affair partner made the deliberate decision to restart the affair; it had no life or intelligence of its own.

Whether the AP was sincere in suggesting it had to end - begging the question of whether he was the only person who suggested ending it - or he was simply play-acting the role of a desire-crazed partner that he knew would be irresistible to your wife is almost irrelevant.

What is relevant is that your wife thought a man like that was attractive, meaning that his professed desire for her overrode the clear signs that he was a total low-life and user of women. Perhaps your wife flattered herself that the only woman he was using was his wife, whereas he could not possibly be using her in just the same callous way.

Along those lines one of the things I could not understand was his repeatedly telling her it had to end and then saying he missed her and it starting up again. I thought it was a clear sign of her being used and how could she be so stupid. She told me it came across to her that no matter what he couldn't give her up. I see now huge validation for her.

Yes, I think you are right in that. The guy was blatantly obviously a liar and a user of women, but your wife's need to feel irresistible prioritized his professed desire for her over all the slap-in-the-face evidence that he had no respect for any of the women around him, including your wife. Maybe that didn't matter to her; perhaps she was fine with him disrespecting her and using her, as long as he desired her.

I get she was also using him, but she was clearly not in control of things.

From an external perspective, it is clear that your wife was not in control of herself in anything like a healthy way, but from her perspective, she clearly thought she was in control, because she continued the affair for four years, even after meeting her AP's wife and baby. I am sorry to say this, but that was her decision and her choice, not her AP's decision.

She also said OBS and AP brought their baby to work shortly after the physical part of the affair started. I asked her how she felt about that. She replied she felt guilty and thought it would end the affair, uh, no. Anyways she tells me she held the baby. I utter a short exclamation of disbelief. She says what is she supposed to do, say I can't hold your baby because I am having an affair with your husband? Besides she likes babies.

I am incredulous at the hypocrisy and make a stupid comment, it goes down hill from there.

Achilles, why do you think that any comment you uttered after your wife held the AP's baby and then continued the affair was 'stupid'? If I told you the kinds of things that I would have said in that scenario, I am sure you were admirably restrained.

Hypocrisy is putting it mildly. It is actually incredibly callous. I am struck by this: "I asked her how she felt about that. She replied she felt guilty and thought it would end the affair". That statement seems to suggest a belief that some outside force would end the affair, or it would end by itself, without the intervention of either of the people who were keeping it going.

The question to ask your wife is why she did not end it when it became obvious that her affair partner was a liar and amoral manipulator, and why she thought she was any better, or different, to the woman who had just had his baby.

I hope she can reach a point where she understands why what she did was wrong, rather than regretting the fact that she got caught.

Look, married men who have affairs with married women manipulate them to some extent. That shouldn’t surprise you nor that your wife manipulated him, too. If she says otherwise, she’s lying.

He would have touched on a sensitive part of her and conscientiously (more likely) or unconsciously played up on it to get sex. Men rarely leave their wives for the extramarital partner and for him as long as he could get sex by saying the things your wife wanted to hear while staying in his marriage, he was content. As was your wife.

This is definitely not his first rodeo. And don’t be surprised if it wasn’t your wife’s first affair. Everything is possible with people who conduct LTAs. Almost 5 years is mind boggling because the kibbles (nice words) she was after initially wanting eventually don’t stick when they’ve been said after 2-3 years when the affair starts to go stale. So, what made her stay? The control she had over him? I mean, as long as she put out he was giving her attention. They’re both fucked up. The bastard had no qualms to have an affair with another women when his wife was pregnant and then to bring in his wife and the baby for you to see. That’s a special type of fuckedupness. What a bastard of a man. His wife is in survival mode. Doesn’t want to have to raise a child on her own so just puts up with the shit sandwich she’s been served. Of course, she’s going to rug sweep but I bet you my last dollar she is miserable.

Your wife needs to put in a lot of work. You need intensive IC for the trauma. And another thing, she needs to leave that workplace. I understand it’s difficult now but that should be her immediate priority. She should never see or communicate with the AP again. Ever.

[This message edited by Mene at 8:21 PM, May 24th (Sunday)]

The problem you have dude is not that you don’t understand and analyse what’s happened. You’re in tune with that.

The problem you have is your head is saying “I can’t be with this woman after such a betrayal - an affair that went for 5 years is a separate relationship” while your heart is saying “she’s the woman I’ve loved the most in my life and she’s the mother to my children and I’m scared of what life would be without her”. Believe me, I empathise with you.

And no matter how many years go by, if you’re with her that scenario between head and heart will continue to haunt you. It’s a terrible position to be in.

Perhaps as time goes by you’ll be able to go with the head or the heart and shut down the other to be able to move on. Otherwise, you’re going to continue to be in limbo. It’s a shit life when that happens.

One other observation. The AP doesn’t give a rat’s about you. Or your wife. If he did he would have left that job. He’s just an asshole who only thinks of himself.

Be like Achilles. Put him to the sword. There are ways to make his life unbearable so he can get a taste of what you’re feeling. But do it legally. Blow up his world like he did yours.

[This message edited by Mene at 8:29 PM, May 24th (Sunday)]

M1965,

My wife has always been a flirt. Never turned into anything (that I know of) I think the difference this time was the friendship and and coworker atmosphere. Spending time together and working together. I know she gave him signs that encouraged him to take things farther, and you are right, she didn't stop it. She has admitted as much to me.

I get continuing the affair was her choice, it just sticks in my craw and I can't spit it out. I guess like the shit sandwich everyone is talking about.

The question to ask your wife is why she did not end it when it became obvious that her affair partner was a liar and amoral manipulator, and why she thought she was any better, or different, to the woman who had just had his baby.

That has me seriously thinking. A great question, given the circumstances. She really is messed up

Mene,

I think you are right about the head and heart thing. That is why I am so messed up. I know limbo is not for me. I need to figure out which way to go and she has not provided enough to make that decision clear. Or maybe she has.

Anyways,

One of the strange things about this affair was how it played out. One of the draws for my wife was she never knew when he would give her attention. There would be a touch or a text and then a flurry of activity for a while and then nothing (or little). Then repeat.

The first year the activity was pretty regular, as in not a lot of time between flurries. After he told his wife, Things seemed to have stopped for about 8 months. Then things picked back up and the intervals between flurries of activity got longer, often months. But whenever he came back to her, she was waiting.

She told me it came across to her that no matter what he couldn't give her up. I see now huge validation for her.

There are two big ego kibbles that women get from married men.

1. He is risking everything.

2. He can't stay away from me.

I think that many women (low self-esteem, yes. But lots of women fall for this) are very drawn to people who make them feel special by what they risk, not just what they say and do.

When you feel good about yourself (new family, young, attractive, in good shape, successful, whatever you are proud of) you are not susceptible to these compliments, actions, and risks. But at a different time in life, when nothing else is filling that bucket (although it should be) women can be wooed, even by a player. Remember, women are complimented when a player seeks them out because they could have anyone but chose her. Men do not feel this same way, or so I have been told. (Although if she's pretty or dynamic enough, from what I have seen, they do.)

I still, Achilles, can't speak to your WW's motives, only that her motives appear common. Women do feel as she says she felt. It's unfortunate she didn't know herself well enough to seek help prior, didn't feel that empiness inside her. Sometimes that is possible, especially if we're going through something.

I think you are right on.

She said she wasn't feeling loved and she was going through menopause. I think she sought validation outside of me because she didn't feel I gave it to her for some reason. I tried and am crushed I coudn't give it to her. But I am not her and maybe I wasn't.

Still doesn't give her the right to cheat

One question to ask your WW if you haven’t already:

If the AP called you and asked to see you and said he missed you and wanted to start up again, would you go? If not, Why not? What has changed? Doesn’t he still give you the feelings of being wanted you so crave?

Great question, One I have kinda asked. I didn't ask specifically , but I ask what changed, She said everything changed when I talked to OBS

At some point I’d still ask it the way I phrased it. And what changed for her would be a good thing to ask.

In fact I seem to remember recommending you ask her to write a series of letters to you. Maybe one per week. With different topics. Has she written any?

Topics can include:

1) why she wants to stay married to you for the rest of her life

2) what it means to her to have you stay and work on the marriage

3) what she loves about you and desires about you

4) how she sees the AP both during the affair and now

5) what she imagines the pain felt like when you found out about the affair (And what she thinks she would have felt if the situation We’re reversed)

6) why she felt it was ok to give to another man some of the best parts of her marriage to you (her whys)

7) what she imagines it feels like For you when she has to tell you each week about interactions with her AP and why she thinks it’s important for your relationship to change that situation so the AP can be gone from your relationship

I can go on, but that’s a start. She can use these with your MC as well.

If I remember correctly you said she ask the MC for help with getting an IC. What did the MC say. Will they get her one?

Stay strong my friend.

She said she wasn't feeling loved and she was going through menopause. I think she sought validation outside of me because she didn't feel I gave it to her for some reason.

No, no, no. That isn't what I meant. You CAN'T give her that validation. It's not possible for an ego junkie to value the same attention year after year, especially in a crisis. Some random somebody can (i.e. new attention, risk) but should never give her that validation if she values her life, her morals, her integrity. So who should be giving her all this validation? Herself!!!! This is also what a BS needs to learn. A wayward cannot steal your validation if you have learned to validate yourself.

I am having some health issues on top of quarantine that are upsetting my apple cart, and I feel unhappy and not myself inside. But my mind is in a very healthy place now, so I have been:

Going to doctors

Reading

Looking for other support forums

Thinking about hobbies

Trying to count blessings

Being kind to myself

Journaling

Loving myself more

I have NOT been looking for outside validation! That is always wrong, and her crisis or menopause doesn't excuse it. I was saying that she fell into a common trap and did not know herself well enough, was not emotionally strong enough to avoid it. But the way she handles the truth of her choices, the NOW, will define her. She must feel the remorse and shame of her poor choices. Otherwise it's all just an excuse. When I see women falling for stupid, lame ego kibbles from losers, I feel sorry for them. For being broken. For thinking these ego kibbles mean anything at all. It's very sad. Some get their lives together, and some grow older and sadder and never find what they were looking for, like a druggie that never quits. It's all so sad and pathetic, but some never wise up.

Your wife seems to be slowly getting it, but she has a ways to go. It seems to me that she is really fighting putting herself under a microscope. She is afraid of everything she has been avoiding about herself.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:50 AM, May 25th (Monday)]

Stevesn,

I will ask her that question.

No letters yet, I haven't asked yet. We got sidetracked when she told her family and were dealing with that.

She is trying to get IC from her health care as opposed to MC which we got from her companies EAP.

OIN,

I get it now. I guess I still have trouble not putting myself as a contributing factor somehow.

I probably have an unpopular view, but I believe you should go scorched earth. Destroy her job security, out them to HE.

Make her rebuild. Maybe this tine she’ll put pieces together properly so she no longer lies, makes ex uses, and stops cheating.

20yrs,

I actually thought about that. I missed my window to do it. Jobs in her field are hard to find right now. I, and my kids, would lose health care.

Still possible at a later date if I decide to do so. Depends on what she does and what I feel is necessary

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 11:25 AM, May 25th (Monday)]

One of the best metaphors for needing external validation is a bucket with a hole in it - that bucket can never be filled up, unless the person with the hole in their soul fixes it with self-love.

Like you, achilles, I thought that my love for my W would be enough to heal her. I'm 9+ years out from d-day, and writing that brought tears to my eyes. Love from one partner is simply not enough to resolve the other partner's issues.

*****

I don't think in terms of heart and head. I think in terms of heart, head, and gut. Heart is basically about what I want. Head is about what I think based on my consciousness. Gut is intuition - the sum total of what I think and what I know, including the info I've taken in without realizing I've taken it in.

IMO, it's impossible to commit fully to a course of action unless head and heart agree. IMO, after being betrayed, it's virtually impossible to decide between D & R without getting heart, head, and gut aligned on one course of action.

For most of us, IMO, it's not a matter of forcing a choice between head and heart. Rather, I believe alignment of head, heart, and gut will develop naturally as long as one doesn't create obstacles to the alignment.

The biggest obstacle come from trying to conform to preconceived opinions about what one should do. The way to align head, heart, and gut is, IMO, to start with what one wants, and from knowing that, going to likelihood of getting it.

One of the best metaphors for needing external validation is a bucket with a hole in it - that bucket can never be filled up, unless the person with the hole in their soul fixes it with self-love

I think that analogy is perfect and sums up what she is going through perfectly

Like you, achilles, I thought that my love for my W would be enough to heal her. I'm 9+ years out from d-day, and writing that brought tears to my eyes. Love from one partner is simply not enough to resolve the other partner's issues.

I understand that now. It was hard to accept, as I generally have a simplistic view of things and don't see shades of grey very well, mostly black and white. Sorry about the tears, hope I didn't ruin your day.

What you said about head, heart and gut makes sense. One of the things that I have trouble with is a lot things, that may be somewhat contradictory, make sense. Trying to wade through everything.

What I do know id this sight has been a blessing for me. Even with the varied advice, I feel everyone has helped me deal with this situation much better than I had been for the almost year before I found it.

Having her write letters is great because you can come back to them and discuss and ask for clarification. Over time they can be the narrative of her A and the path you each choose out of it.

They are easier to refer to vs conversations. You can take a word or phrase or sentence or paragraph and drill down on it.

As for you having any cause to the affair, no. You could have owned your role in the marriage suffering, and even agreed to work on it with her before she chose 4-5 years of cheating as her solution. But that was her choice, a destructive one, not a constructive one.

To be honest, in the end, with the time And energy she took away from You, I think the best path may be to D, end the marriage because she really did destroy it and then decide whether or not you want a relationship going forward.

I can’t see with what she did how she deserves to be called your wife any more. That gift is for those who make their spouses feel safe, cherished and honored over the years.