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I keep going back to a little earlier post here by Manfromlamanch. I think his point should be explored in relation to all betrayals. TTA illustrates a fundamental difference between how some BS thinking differs on betrayal from others (understanding there are many fine gradations between all BS's as to what they can R with) that we should, but often don't recognize. I think we can all see he believes the only thing that REALLY MATTERS is how the WW / WS really feels about things INSIDE themselves as to what their actions means as to how they feel about their BS. He understands he cannot live with a woman who puts another man above him even if it would some how be known to only happen once. To me is RIGHT! I could not reconcile any infidelity except one.....the drunken ONS where the spouse can be shown to NEVER had the requisite intent to cheat. That is how we were either minted or developed into. It reflects both strengths and weaknesses in us. We live by Lord Byron's famous words, "I could not love thee half so much loved I not honor more". Byron was describing a young soldier going off to war over the protestations of his young bride. He is, of course noble.....but depending on the circumstances of the war, perhaps a bit foolish. I fought in Vietnam so I know there are not just the black and white of things. Rigidity, Stubborn, Pride, Integrity, Honor........see how all the words convey different qualities.....some admirable, others maybe even foolish....again depending on the circumstances of the "War". Despite all, including a very unhappy betrayal of me by the only woman I ever loved half a lifetime ago and the life I should have had missed out on.....still would not do a thing different than what I did.

But as a medical doctor (Internal Medicine) who did 2 years of a Psychiatry Residency before switching to Internal Medicine and who practiced for over 40 years, some 35 years that included MC and IC because of the remoteness of my practice......I had to learn to evaluate the BS and WS, see what they wanted, ascertain if they had the emotional make up to be successful, and try and find a path they both could take. I was not helping me. I was helping them do what they WANTED. Manfromlamancha serves a valuable purpose showing WHY he would D. Some BS's might realize from his articulating the internal feeling of the WS toward the BS and how THEY FEEL about that that their WS felt about them is the way they ultimately feel, is a deal breaker and avoid YEARS of torture that ultimately will lead to divorce anyway. Good Post.....sometimes how they feel and even felt......even if we could believe they no longer feel that way...it is all too late. stretch

TTA... Good to hear! Glad you are moving through and past but dealing with it all logically.

In my case... She's been gone 2 weeks now and we've been going back and forth over the SA... We almost have that hammered out. I'll know this weekend.

Take care and have an awesome weekend! R E L A X!

Drifter, your position seems to be that I either accept being a cuckold or divorce right now. Stretch gave some percentages in his opinion that she will do it again. If we believe that past behavior is a predictor of future behavior it is not hard to conclude that the chances of it happening again are greater. Are the chance greater than a WW who has been fucking guys on Ashley Madison , or greater than a WW who has been fucking multiple OM, or the next door neighbor. I already stated that I understand that most female infidelity in a marriage produces more bad outcomes than the other way around. But that is because in Not Just Friends and other books it states that most in the case of most female infidelity the wife is already checked out before the sex begins.

Neither Stretch nor Longtime Sucker has suggested that in their remarks.

Every BH on here, myself inc;lauded is fighting an uphill battle. My eyes are wide open, but your suggestion that I am fine with sharing my wife in the future unless I divorce her now is a projection on what might happen, not what has. I'll leave it at that.

Been a long day. When I left my wife this afternoon I told her again no big mushy cards for Valentines Day but told her to go buy herself a nice dress and that we were going to have a decent week end for the first time in a while. And after tomorrow I am going off these meds. I am calming down enough for that.

To build on this, it's just not about playing defense. Playing defense gets you to a place where you are saying dumb things like "if she could cheat, anyone could cheat so best stick with the devil that I know". We all know that is bunk, but that is where this line of reasoning gets you to.

At some point you need to re-establish trust, and once trust is re-established you also need to mentially prepare yourself for it happening again. It may never happen again, but one of the consequences of it happening is that you'll never be the same. It's all well and good and a case could be made that all your doing is dealing with reality anyhow.

Once you're at the point is you need to decide it this is the woman to deal with. TTA is frankly about as low on the deth chart of affairs that you can go. It was basically an ongoing one-night-stand. It does reflect on her character to be sure, but it's not like Wallup's wife (to use another example that I just read up on) where she was effectively in love with another man and, if not caught, would probably be working on ways to unwind the marriage at this point. What I am getting at is he's dealing with someone who did something intentionally dumb, it harmed the marriage forever, but if anyone can come back from something like this it would seem as if all of the pieces were in place to do so.

MIND BLOWN

Thank you. I am sorry your situation has not worked out better, but i think it could help others on the value of pulling the polygraph request out of the tool box even if you do not do it. If my wife refused to do it i would be right where you are at this point. I do not think there is any guess work on your part any more that there is a lot of shit she was hiding. I hope you continue to work your way through this shit as well as you have.

ANIMAL DOC

Once you're at the point is you need to decide it this is the woman to deal with. TTA is frankly about as low on the deth chart of affairs that you can go. It was basically an ongoing one-night-stand. It does reflect on her character to be sure, but it's not like Wallup's wife (to use another example that I just read up on) where she was effectively in love with another man and, if not caught, would probably be working on ways to unwind the marriage at this point. What I am getting at is he's dealing with someone who did something intentionally dumb, it harmed the marriage forever, but if anyone can come back from something like this it would seem as if all of the pieces were in place to do so.

I do not think ot would be possible for anyone to work through this better or more logically and rationally than Walloped has. I do not think he has left a stone unturned.

That being said, just as a few here consider my wife totally void of the possibility of a successful reconciliation, had I been posting to Walloped back on his D Day I would have told him I could not get past what his wife did. i do not want to go there but I could list at least 7-10 things that his wife did that mine did not, and the same is true for Space Ghost. but somehow, some of the same folks are of the opinion that their wives were totally remorseful and that my wife is guaranteed to cheat again. i could really probably list more shit about Space Ghosts wife but it is not productive at this point and it would only be my opinion.

STRETCH

I totally understand that ManOfLaMancha, Western, and Drifter, cannot see a possible reconciliation here, for reason of their own.

TTA illustrates a fundamental difference between how some BS thinking differs on betrayal from others

Obviously true.

I have absorbed a lot in a short time. I think i have a sound plan. If my wife is a serial cheater I have no doubt I will divorce her, and I expect I will find that out in the next few weeks.

In a few hours I am flying home and I have promised myself, not my wife, that I will try to have a few normal days. We have more tough days ahead, I know that also.

But like a person diagnosed with a terrible disease, we all have two choice. To quit or to fight.

For now, I choose to fight. That can change but I am at peace with my decision for now.

Thanks again everyone. We'll see how I feel after this week end.

I think stretch has the perfect plan. Offer her an amicable divorce now if she can’t keep her panties on. Offering to not spill the beans with the kids or her employer you will make you a good guy in her book. Plus she should offer you great terms in the divorce to keep you happy and quiet.

Telling her that you will unleash hell if you stay married and she cheats will make you appear strong, manly and a take no prisoners kind of guy. I would think that would be very attractive to your wife.

TTA - just letting you know I agree with you. I don't believe your wife is hopeless. And I don't believe its a futile effort to see if R is in the cards. I think its worth reading people's insights and armchair opinions. But you're the one who knows her and your situation the best. I trust you will do what is right for you.

I don't agree with Stretch, Western, Drifter or Manoflamancha. Which is fine. Everyone can have their own thoughts.

Timetoact seems to knows what he wants an is going to follow thru with it an knows that the R could go straight down the toilet.Iam older than many of the posters here (63) an have been down the infidelity road twice now. My first marriage I was in my thirties an had been married for a little over 3 years when I found out my then wife had been cheating, with a younger single man. I blew the affair up an R with the wife. Four years later she did it again this time with a married co-worker. It was almost the same exact scenario as stretch described,which is terrific read an so dead on in my situation then. This time after outing the affair I divorced my wife. A few years later I married again, an this time after 18 years of marriage I discovered my wife involved in a multi year affair with a married co-worker. Now based on my past experines didnt hesitate to divorce her. Stretchs post is dead on. Timetoact is a strong guy but hey, keep your eyes wide open.Good luck.

You say that I don't see a possibility of successful reconciliation because of my own issues. I agree with this 100%. But in the words of Bill Maher, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Let me make my opinion clear: when a man's wife cheats on him he should divorce her. Kids, no kids, whatever his circumstance he will heal faster and more complete by divorcing. Now, when there are children involved I totally understand that a BH's first choice may be to try to reconcile no matter the circumstances of her cheating. I don't think it's the best path for him but I get it because I did it. Let me add that in this case I rarely will advise against his decision to try R because not trying might go against everything he believes. But even in this case I still believe that he is better off divorcing. I simply believe that not living with their mother does not mean he can't be a great father. Where he lives is not the determining factor here. No one would deny that any man can be a horrible father no matter where he lives. But when his kids are grown or there are no kids involved in the first place than I take the position that it's stupid to try to R because it can take so long, it is so painful, and it might lead to divorce anyway. Life is so short, so precious that living in misery without a certainty of a payoff is way too big a gamble. Yes, in no endeavor is there a certainty of a payoff but it's the living in misery part that makes R a bad bet.

My pet looked at me and then the male fox, then a long, long look at me and then went to her new mate forever.Your wife will NOT leave forever if you don't throw her out. It is unlikely she will truly and deeply love another man in the future.....but she WILL desire hot sex and the validation so craved by an aging prideful woman with another man again and that man will NOT be you. It is her nature now.....a product of all the elements of her life. If you can live with that again you will find the second episode also will end in R. If you can't it will end in D. All this comes about from the multitude of things that happened in her life, some good, some bad, and some both good and bad. I would advise you not to inform family and friends and especially your children......the more people you tell.....will ensure it gets all over. One exception is IF she lies and says you were the cheater, Good Luck, I truly hope you beat the odds. stretch

I quoted from stretch's post for clarity - and support - regarding the poor chances you have for a long-term, successful reconciliation. The odds are much worse than whoever the next woman you decide to have a committed relationship with - as long as she does not fit the clear profile stretch details here.

Just tell me that you fully understand you are rolling a pair of dice that are stacked against you. I understand that your answer today comes from a place of desperation while you are still reaching for anything that promises immediate relief. Just understand that you have been informed of this by experienced people who are probably correct in their assessment. You should remember this and refer back to this prognosis as you move ahead with R.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 3:44 PM, February 12th (Friday)]

Just tell me that you fully understand you are rolling a pair of dice that are stacked against you.

wtf is wrong with you? He doesn't owe you anything. You've said your opinion. you've made your point. maybe you should give it a rest. let him do what he wants now.

wtf is wrong with you? He doesn't owe you anything. You've said your opinion. you've made your point. maybe you should give it a rest. let him do what he wants now.

Nothing is wrong with me - what about you? Attacking posters on a personal level because you don't agree with them? Classy...

TTA, just so that we are clear - I did not say that I cannot see a possible R here! What I asked you was are you prepared to R knowing what you now know to be her ambition fuelled approach to most things including pursuing e.g. a younger attractive man. I was just making sure that you were going into this with your eyes wide open.

I can fully understand that she loves you and is doing the right things now as per your requests - however, that does not change who she basically is and her basic beliefs/dna.

I think that once you are aware of this you will be in a better position to protect yourself and also enforce better boundaries (but there is that word again - enforce - which is not the way some choose to go forward).

Just tell me that you fully understand you are rolling a pair of dice that are stacked against you.

Isn't everyone who reconciles doing this? I mean, shit, they already betrayed us.

Isn't everyone who reconciles doing this? I mean, shit, they already betrayed us.

Of course - but it's the degree of risk that must be considered. Like we risk our lives every day however the risk of getting killed crossing the street is a lot lower than the risk of teasing a grizzly bear.

Go read stretch's post on page 23 to understand what I'm referring to.

At some point you need to re-establish trust, and once trust is re-established you also need to mentially prepare yourself for it happening again. It may never happen again, but one of the consequences of it happening is that you'll never be the same. It's all well and good and a case could be made that all your doing is dealing with reality anyhow.

In my sitch, ^^THIS^^ x1000

Isn't everyone who reconciles doing this? I mean, shit, they already betrayed us.

Yep - the risk of reconciliation. There is never a guarantee. There clearly never was. But now I know what he is capable of and I'm prepared. I'd rather take the risk with the man I love... than the next guy. FOR ME.... its worth the risk.

We know all too well we are rolling dice here.

She BELIEVES right now this will not happen again.....but it can.....more likely statistically it will happen in the next 5-7 years.....anywhere from 66 to 75% chance.

Which is why the idea of more than one poly (and perhaps one every year or couple of years) is a really good one. We probably have no way of knowing, but if you looked at the statistics of how often it 'happened again' among those who took periodic polygraphs, I'd think it would be somewhat lower. It's also probably somewhat lower among those who don't rug sweep the incident. It seems to me that you are NOT rug sweeping.

You know her (at least pretty well) and you know you, and you know your family. It also seems to me that you read everything people write here. You don't always agree, and that's fine. I believe you do consider what everyone writes though (if you didn't, you wouldn't get so frustrated when someone continually repeats something you've already answered).

I've read that Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." You seem to be (and I hope you continue) embracing this.

Somebody on some site said 'No one, not the best partner in the world, can meet 100% of your needs and expectations. It's how you handle that percentage that is unmet that is the true measure of your integrity and character.'

Hang in there. I hope Valentines day is good, and that you and your wife's future behavior reflects something at least close to the the best you hope for.

[This message edited by c24j at 10:49 PM, February 12th (Friday)]

Reconciliation = vulnerability, and there are people willing to expose themselves to that and there are others who need control in order to feel safe.

There can't possibly be a formulaic answer to this - there are too many permutations to every relationship to be able to successfully project our situations onto others.

In a few hours I am flying home and I have promised myself, not my wife, that I will try to have a few normal days. We have more tough days ahead, I know that also.

Making decisions for yourself is the best thing you can do. There's zero certainty of payoff no matter what path you choose - that's just life.

Wishing you strength and stability as you navigate these next steps.

Some interesting posts have come in. Long Time Sucker adds another strong dynamic quite possibly affecting your wife TTA. But I think her competitiveness would most likely be operating sub rosa....below her conscious thought. It could be ignored because to get it out she would need Psychiatric Rx.....very time consuming as opposed to more pragmatic IC. Your kids are grown so to ignore this now has less consequence if things go bad. She leads a busy life also already.

Drifter points out how divorce is almost always the best way to get out of pain. It is, probably not only for Drifter, Manfromlamancha, and me.....but for every BH. BUT........my own example : 35 years later I don't know what might have happened if I kept her.....but even not knowing....I wouldn't have done anything different. But for TTA if HE divorces now, HE WILL BE PLAGUED by doubt he acted correctly and over what he may have missed out on by keeping his wife. Remember I ALSO went off to a very bad war on principle and honor. Maybe TTA might have been the guy in the street warning his nation of the mistake it was making. We can only know what seems the best course for ourselves at the time.

I think at their ages, an empty nest, his intense love for the love of his life.... he would betray HIMSELF now NOT to try. So? Limit the emotional damage to himself if it re-occurs. The Poly may be better than occasional PI surveillance, but in case his wife IS really an ex CIA operative that can beat Polys, a little of both can be laid out to his now fWW as insurance she stays true. But really challenge her integrity that it would not be right to hide this from her husband and the father of her kids. While holding out that widespread exposure is a consequence.....not for the future cheating.....but for the CONCEALING of such ......it should prove effective. Even then I would only use it for its threat value. If the worst happens you would only get short term satisfaction then only to see great sadness in your children and pain in other family that holds her in high regard. Trust me years later should these unhappy things take place you will feel better to yourself.......even while no one else will ever know.......that you took this private course. But in time your wife WILL recognize that you were on a far higher plane than she was ever on if you conduct yourself in this matter and she will at some point express her regret and appreciation of your behavior. This will be a consolation to you, no matter how small, should these unfortunate events take place. And there is always a 25-40 % chance she will remain true.....so I see little risk taking this path. stretch

I missed the post by Jazz just above my last. She puts her finger EXACTLY on WHY some of us can't R at all. Vulnerability. I was only able to do that.....open up completely vulnerable.....just once in my life. Then only to a single person. Some of us can do it once with a person then not again with them but can open again to another person. Others can open up again a second time to the same person. After that they may even be able to R for a third time but.......but by then they stop being vulnerable to that person....so the R is more of a settled thing. stretch

Stretch

Out of curiosity, what source did you use to come up with the 25-40% chance that TTA’s wife in particular will remain true?