SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thumos, you understand that TIF has the BIL's phone number, right?

Yes I was being sarcastic because of course there is a lot more that he could be doing. It was perhaps a too subtle 2x4

TIF I’m worried about you. Why? Because ironically while your wife offers up New Age blather about losing herself and berates you with a twisted version of feminist catchphrases, the real person in danger of losing themselves in this process is you. I do worry about it. When I speak of your integrity I’m rather saying your obviously innate integrity will not let you rest until your BIL isn’t being subjected to abuse and lies. I’m not saying you’ll lose your integrity. I’m saying you ignore at your own peril. Maybe I’m wrong about this but I doubt it. You’ve already demonstrated a high degree of integrity and character will out (just as you’re understandably and rightfully concerned about the disconnect with your wife’s rather paltry value system - her character is also peeking thru and it’s disconcerting).

When I speak of what I called “solipsistic utilitarianism” I wasn’t speaking of you, but rather of Shakespeare’s intent with putting a bunch of muddle headed catchphrases In the mouth of Polonius. A better phrase might be “narcissistic utilitarianism” meaning “I’ll look for the greatest good so long as it benefits me in some way.” That’s Polonius, not you.

Lifting that obviously tongue in cheek “advice” litany out of context and placing it in internet memes and on T-shirts or appropriating to try to persuade you to embrace the warm bosom of apathy is kind of hilarious when you actually know the context of Shakespeare’s words and the author’s intent. It’s postmodernism writ large to appropriate it is as a warm fuzzy for doing nothing and I’m actually laughing about it. Shakespeare would be cracking up if he were here to see it.

But I don’t see that as you. I have a feeling this dance around her job and the BIL and the rest of her shitty behavior won’t go on too much longer. Because you have too much integrity to allow it for any length of time.

You’re seeing with clarity who and what your wife is, and how it’s wrapped up in familial DNA. It’s not pretty. she’s lied and minimized and disrespected you at every turn and continues to do so. I’m not one of this recommending D. I’m recommending you tame this shrew, to use a turn of phrase, and let this woman know you won’t be treated this way by her or anyone else — through your actions, not your words. Actions seem to be the only thing she understands. If she doesn’t get that or simply has no real regard for you, then you will have decide if you can live with that or leave it.

PS not many of us here actually believe no sexual activity happened between the.AP and WW. It is about as unlikely as winning the powerballl lottery. So just keep in mind that is probably why she has taken no action on the poly and maybe what you’re afraid of confirming?

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:44 PM, February 6th (Thursday)]

TIF,

Here you say, don't go full throttle into divorce but to file and then not lose. Sure I wish I could do that. I think in my case, when I file it's over. There will not be R.

Going to clarify this a bit more on the D filing.

The D process takes time, and this will buy you some time to come to a better position mentally and emotionally (assuming that the BS will be working on this). It will also point out to the WS that you are serious, and not taking anymore shit from them.

The advice is meant to give you another viewpoint that can be considered, but from the bolded part, you seem to have a mindset that the filing is an unstoppable process. This then limits your options on what you can do.

I do understand your way of thinking, but feel that you sometimes hinder yourself (e.g. the D filing). Once you file, ther is no turning back, when in reality, there is, as it is just a legal process. I do understand that for you to file, you will need to be in the correct emotional state, to take that step, and once you reach that emotional step, there is no turning back for you emotionally.

If you really want to have a chance at R, it might be good to alter your view point a bit, as it will give you another possible action to take to increase your chance at R. I know it is counter-intuitive, but hey, it's like BSs should not do the Pick-Me dance, as it will drive the WS further away....

TIF:

If you held your wife as accountable as you are those who are (rightfully) advocating for a divorce, you would be moving in the right direction.

That said, you can simply start going your own way if she won't start doing the things you need to rebuild trust.

Think of it as a soft 180.

No more calling her for anything but logistics.

Stop doing things for her.

Stop engaging in dialogue with her.

When she asks you to do something, tell her you don't feel like it (obviously this doesn't apply to things for your kids, just for her).

Make her somewhere south of zero on your priority list...beneath rugby, gym, guys night out, laundry, drain cleaning...everything becomes more important than her.

If she complains...you might just have something to work with. At that point, it becomes something akin to "nothing changes until you can do the things I ask of you" situation.

If she doesn't complain, you might as well file because it's over.

Of course, I believe it to be the latter anyway as I strongly suspect contact is still occurring...and the affair is much deeper than she indicated...so do what you feel you must.

Just stop talking to her about what she refuses to do, and start doing something about it. Shit...even if it's wrong, at least you will have taken action rather than finding excuses to do nothing.

^^^ talk never gets you much in these situations

I don't follow. Or else what? Divorce, right?

Well yea. That is the alternative and if it is not, or if your WW doesn't believe that it is a legitimate alternative if things don't change and go the way you want them to go then you have lost already here. Of course Divorce has to be on the table. Of course she has to believe it will happen. She hasn't left the job where she sees her AP every day precisely because she does not believe that you will divorce her.

None of these thing involve your wife.

"I exercise on the regular, running 5k every morning on weekdays. Lifting twice a week. I participate in Rugby, including the socials (drink ups). I do some woodworking. I built a treehouse for my kids. I play video games. So it's not like I feel I'm under some oppressive weight of an unfair marriage on top of the infidelity."

What do you being able to do these activities without issue from your wife have to do with whether a marriage is 'unfair' or not? I don't know of anyone who would discourage their spouse from exercising and staying fit, or be jealous or resentful of time spent with/for their children. Maybe your idea of the average marriage is skewed and you have it worse than you feel you do...?

Why would you telling her you expect her to act like a woman who has integrity,lead to divorce?

Why would you having her take a polygraph,which she offered,lead to divorce?

Why would you're requirement that she look for a job,in which she wouldn't see OM,lead to divorce?

Why would you giving her a list of requirements you need to feel safe, lead to divorce?

Really. Think about it. If she loves you, why wouldn't she want to protect you from more pain? Why wouldn't she be doing the most basic things a WS should be doing,after an affair?

Why does your need for the truth,remorse, and respect lead to divorce?

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:18 AM, February 7th (Friday)]

Really. Think about it. If she loves you, why wouldn't she want to protect you from more pain? Why wouldn't she be doing the most basic things a WS should be doing,after an affair?

Why does your need for the truth,remorse, and respect lead to divorce?

You don't have a clue if you know the truth, she hasn't done one thing she said she was going to do, and has absolutely no concern that you are going to do one thing that will piss her off. And on top of that she also of course also entitled to have an affair because men do.

if your best buddy was telling you this story you'd probably tell him he'd lost his mind.

It does'nt matter what she does or says, you seem determined to make an excuse for her.

Way back when you said if she fucked him it was over. You have no clue if she did or did not.

And in case you have not figured it out, turning over the passwords when she still works with the OM is meaningless as can be. You really think her passwords are going to tell you a damm thing in May when she is in the same hotel.

The only thing you know for sure is that you SIL is cheating on her husband, and that you are scared to tell your BIL. Not exactly the formula to get out of infidelity.

I hope that your plan works and you get the results you want with true reconciliation and a cheater filled with remorse and willing to do anything to make amends.

unfortunately I had to tell my H I was Divorcing him and telling him to leave before he realized I was no longer a doormat. He thought he could just end the affair, I would never find out and he could take it to his grave.

ROFLMAO b/c I did find out and acted on the revelation he never ended the affair. So after dday2 and false reconciliation I was done with him.

Funny how that restored my power in the marriage. He was no longer calling the shots. Because I took back all my control from him.

I am going to answer all these questions very succinctly.
I do not want to force her to do anything.
I want her to do it.
She can choose to not do it.
Eventually (we are only two months out), I hope she will understand that she should choose to do it and I shouldn't have to threaten a divorce for her to reach that understanding.
Once I file for divorce, that's when I'm out of patience. I will not give in to a desperation move at that point. She will have had ample opportunity with plenty of open communication on what I wanted.
I'm sorry that my patience is hard to watch.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:54 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:51 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

I would call what you're doing anytghing but patience!

And how long are you going to let the BIL twist in the wind?

Your patience is tantamount to countenancing ongoing abuse. That you could easily stop with a conversation over a cup of coffee, face to face, man to man.

Given the inner integrity you’ve already demonstrated, I don’t think you’ll be able to sustain that tension of allowing abuse to occur on your watch for much longer — but I could be wrong.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:56 AM, February 7th (Friday)]

Thumos, the short answer is not too much longer. The long answer is check your PMs.
Unsure, if what I'm doing isn't applying patience then what would you call it? Just some solid denial and hopium?

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:54 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:51 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

We are going to continue to leave my poor BIL in limbo until we have a better fix on our shit. I'm ok with this for now, but I emphasized my value of integrity and honesty very explicitly.

Please stop letting her be in charge of this entire situation. Just tell the BIL anonymously, he needs to know and by not telling him you are proving to your WW that you are every bit as weak as she thinks you are.

My current goal is to help work her head out of her ass on the job.

I think you need to stop referring to this issue as her "job".

She is fighting tooth & nail to keep this "job" that she has already admitted is NBD to replace with a better one. Yet here she is, with the potential expense of her marriage hanging over her head like the sword of Damocles, still fighting to keep this run of the mill job.

It's not the job she's fighting for, it's the OM.

TIF,

Yes, absolutely denial and hopium. She wouldn’t give in when you initially put some pressure on her. Why on earth would she “choose to do it now”? You’ve already given her a pass and SHE KNOWS IT.

Some of the principles that I thought were considered "truths" in this forum are (gender distinction only used to fit TIF's situation):

=>"Take what you need, and leave the rest." TIF should be allowed to do just that. Most of my life I have been in the role of a business consultant (Board of Director level, multi-billion dollar organizations). I can tell you from years of experience, you can not convince anyone to change their ways (even if they are downright wrong and stupid) by simply berating and criticizing them. If you try to, you will be excused as an ***hole and no one will give you the time of day, much less consider your points as constructive and solely for their own benefit. You must suggest, encourage, and provide positive feedback for progress, not demand, cajole, and criticize. I concede that the proper use of presenting facts in a blunt way (2x4's) are sometimes appropriate and required. This discussion also applies to TIF when he engages with his wife over contentious issues.

The "direct" method in certain situations is the best way. BeyondRage handled his situation perfectly. His wife responded to him and got her head on right at the time of confrontation. She, IMHO, although she made a horrible choice, was clear-headed and rational enough to "get it" right away and to fix what was broken within her PDQ. But, I point out that BeyondRage's wife was not emotionally involved with her APs, did not have FOO issues, personal identity issues, or general anxiety issues. TIF's wife, on the other hand, has layers of complexities with her "why" issues and how she is broken. One might consider that it may be appropriate to tailor an approach to specific cases, handing issues in different ways, while still conceding that BeyondRage is entitled to his A+ grade for his actions and the results thereof.

I would also like to note that strength, along with being evidenced by action, can also be identified by restraint. Ask a parent, teacher, policeman, etc. My wife, whom if adore, often calls me "weak" when I leave the room rather than continue to be the subject of her wrath. (Sometimes I do deserve her wrath.) But, I am only applying 180 principles to indicate that I will remove myself from situations that are unacceptable to me. I will not stand there and be a punching bag. When she engages with me showing due respect, THEN I will discuss matters further. (Sometimes that is when i do apologize, other times she may soften her wrath.) I think that is proper example of how strength is demonstrated through restraint.

I think that, compared to BeyondRage's wife, TIF's wife can be considered a relatively fragile "snowflake." TIF's wife does not have a critically important job. She is head of a unit in the accounting department. Her job may be demanding (even over-demanding) on her due to her level of experience, knowledge and confidence, but she is not responsible for the organization's direction and the livelihood of its employees as is anyone at, or close to, the C-level. TIF's wife's job is important to her, to her self-worth, and to her personal identity, but her job is not evidence that she is a mature, rational-thinking adult who has no personality disorders. Also, the fact that she can attract a husband and an AP does not seem to be a bar set high enough to be meaningful or relevant. Most WW's obviously have some attractive characteristics, even if they are broken from the aspects of infidelity, honesty, and transparency.

=> "Only you can make the decision which is best for you." When there are options to consider, and decisions to be made, TIF should have the right to do as he sees fit. After all, no one on this site knows the situation dynamics and the WW's issues and temperament, and TIF's hopes and needs better than TIF does, and it is HIS life. If we can not operate with that principle in mind, we would be better off stating "We know what is best for you, do it or go somewhere else for advice."

=> "You can not fix your wife. She needs to fix herself. She must recommit to the marriage on her own out of true love. You must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it." Intimidating TIF's wife with ultimatums might not have a positive impact on the situation, rather the ultimatums may just quickly induce divorce. TIF would be out of infidelity for sure, but at a significant opportunity cost since he expresses a desire to save the marriage. Currently, TIF's wife is in IC and, intermittently, they have been attending sessions with an MC. I admit that the marriage does not need counseling, that the WW does. TIF also needs IRL counseling to help him through the tough sledding that is required of him. However, TIF can view the MC sessions as a moderated environment in which the WW is allowed to safely discuss her thoughts and issues. If his wife seizes the opportunity to open up honestly, it is an opportunity for TIF to "take her temperature" and to assess her progress. If she misses the opportunity, then I admit that the MC session is a waste of time and could be an impediment to progress. Then, TIF should decline to attend.

TIF has acknowledged that she is not yet fixed, and he is frustrated about the seemingly slow pace of her progress. Yet, it seems she has been making some progress. TIF has posted a list of the indications of her progress, even if not achieving significant revelations. IMHO, that is enough to let the process continue. There may be a day that TIF decides, "I'm done." There may be a setback (such as violation of NC, disclosure of some unacceptable TT, or some other act of betrayal). TIF has clearly indicated that such an event would be a "dealbreaker" and he would terminate the process. TIF shows strength by restraint, and indicates he will show strength by action. I hope that TIF does follow through with his stated intent. If he does not, then that is on him.

The power of SI is that a range of members, all with their unique set of experiences and knowledge, can share with those who need that advice and support during a critical episode of their lives. That advice and support is maximized when delivered, as is typically the case, in the spirit of compassion, love and empathy and in a constructive, respectful manner.

Take what you find meaningful, ignore the rest.

Wish Bigger would chime in!

I vehemently disagree with the "take what you need, leave the rest" motto.

It's been proven,if something on here pisses you off, it's almost always because the advice, or opinion, hit a little too close to home.

We have waywards show up all the time, sure they know what they need to do, foggy as fuck, and argue with the advice given. Just go read a few of the new threads right now. Should they be told to take what they need,and leave the rest? Lol. Nope. They need to listen to what they don't want to hear,take it in, and work on themselves. Same goes for any new BS.

Sorry, but many waywards have significant FOO issues. That doesn't mean they should be handled with kid gloves.

Advising anyone to stay with an unremorsrful WS is bad advice.

As pointed out, he gave her an ultimatum, she refused, he backed down. Waiting on her to do the right thing is foolish,at best. She continues to show him she doesn't respect him. We are simply encouraging him to respect himself.

** posting as a member **

I fear, but do not know, that Bigger is ill. He has been missed.

** posting as a guide **

People have made mistakes in their own recovery, and they want to prevent new members from making the same mistakes. I get that - but it's better to get to an optimal resolution than just a quick one. Optimal, WRT a decision that affects decades, usually takes more than 2 months.

I don't think it helps at all to push new members to make quick decisions.

*****

A BS is typically told to wait 6 months IF they have a remorseful WS, who is doing the work,and agreed to the basics like NC.

Don't mix recovery and R together. They're 2 separate processes.

Part of recovery is deciding which way to jump - D or R. The 6 month suggestion is meant, IMO, to take time pressure off the BS. some people preach 6 months (or 3 or 12 or?) because they think it takes that long for a BS to know what the BS really wants.

Three months worked for me. It works for some people; others need longer; few need less. LtCdrLost needed less, but he lied.

The key takeaway, I think, is that a BS probably needs time to figure out what's best for them, and that's OK - and that the amount of time needed to come to a decision is variable.

*****

My take is that the D word is a metaphorical loaded gun. I strongly advise not using it unless you mean it. I strongly advise not filing unless you mean it. I strongly advise not using it as a manipulative technique.

Recovery is hard enough. Dealing with D will take energy away from your recovery, and that's doing yourself a real disservice.

*****

The 180 is a tool that helps the BS find the strength to D an unremorseful WS. It's not a tool to manipulate the WS back into the M, although it sometimes causes the WS to come back because they realize what they will lose.

The 180 is worse than useless if R is a possibility. The 180 requires minimizing communication, while R requires maximizing it. And communication is the only way to know if the WS is a good candidate for R, IMO.

*****

TiF, I think you want R. Knowing what you want is great. If I'm right, then the next step is to see if your W is a good candidate for R. That takes longer.

The best approach to R that I've found is to figure out your requirements for R and figure out how you'll both know if your W meets them.

And, yes, if you don't come to an agreement on requirements for R, D is probably the right answer.

D becomes the right answer not out of fear, not out of anger, not out of injured pride - if you can't agree on requirements, you're not a good fit for each other, and D is a good response to that.

Common requirements include:

NC - no contact with ap; if ap initiates contact, report to BS and together decide how to respond

Transparency - BS has passwords to e-mail, voice-mail, phones, etc.; WS keeps BS informed of whereabouts, activities, and companions at all times

Honesty - WS answers BS's questions when they're asked, although sometimes a break is necessary, sometimes an answer is best deferred to MC session, etc., no more lies.

IC for WS - to change the thoughts and feelings that supported the A, with signed release that enables C to talk with BS about WS's goals and progress (so the BS can make sure WS's IC isn't being lied to).

IC for BS - for support

MC - to help communications between the partners

Some (Most?) people have individual requirements - my W must arrange dates for us on a weekly basis and must initiate sex sometimes.