SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Stayedforthekids, I wouldn't expect anything less than sanctimonious 2x4s from you. It's how you roll.

Tess, are we comparing pain then? I said earlier, nobody gets to tell anyone that their pain is more or less than anyone else's. Imfidelity is worse, for you. But you cannot speak for everyone.

And technically I had a Dday. But ya know. It was pornography and around these parts, it doesn't count.

You hurt. I'm sorry. But you have no clue the pain in my life or anyone else's. I'm not interested in a pain shopping contest. I'm not interested in the "I've been thru this and the infidelity was the worst". Because for every person saying that, there's someone else on the other side saying other pain like the death of a spouse or child or sibling is the worst. And please. Let's not derail this thread on that whole subject.

ETA: Exactly Prissy.

I really don't think anyone on this thread is self aware enough to know exactly what their spouse thinks and perceives within the marriage. We are all physically in the "same marriage" but when you have people who have a mental issue, disability, or physical impairment, or even not, even just your average Joe/Jane, you really are not in the same marriage.

Like TG explained earlier. Her husband is on the spectrum. His perception of their relationship is therefore a polar opposite of hers. Spectrum folks don't run on the same emotional wave length. She is having to accept that he can only offer so much within the marriage. He can provide within a certain bracket. But emotional connection is nil. Sure he can provide a livelihood. He can provide physical needs. That's not to say that he doesn't have a lot to offer. I know he does. I'm not saying spectrum people are worthless or lacking. But he will never emotionally connect fully. Because he can't. It's very limited.

Basically when you have a spectrum person and a neurotypical, it's totally not the same marriage. TG is probably giving up a lot to stay in the marriage. How many times do people here discuss emotional connection, how to get it, how to regain it? Now take a man who cannot emotionally connect. I think that's why she's saying what she's saying.

And that has nothing whatsoever to do with infidelity. I'm guessing thats why this is in Recon too. Because while it's "technically" post Dday....its average relationship stuff.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 12:31 PM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

@tess, you are correct. I think it depends on the value you put on the M. If the M wasn't that high of a priority to you then it's probably not that big of a deal. Some have stated that the pain of other things was worse. That's because they valued those things more than the M. For you and I our M's were the most important relationships in our lives, as they should be, and therefore the pain was the worse thing we can imagine. I watched my mother waste away and die of lung cancer. She was the only family I have and raised me as a single mother my entire life. I was an OC and have ZERO clue about my biological father. Anyway, I loved my mother yet watching her die of cancer was not as painful to me as the betrayal of my ex. That hurt so much worse. Why? Because my M was my top priority and most important relationship. Higher than my relationship with my mother.

I can look back on our marriage and see that I was a drama causing queen, not exactly the best thing for my husband lol. So neither of us was in the same marriage.

I think people are seeing it because many of the responses MADE it about infidelity and what tg's statement has to do with cheating. The very first response on the thread mentions breaking vows.

In the OP tg mentions cheating, and it's posted in a forum about cheating. Of course this topic is about cheating ...

There are other issues to consider in reconciling a marriage, especially many years post D-Day(s) like tg is, than infidelity. I know that's also unpopular around here, but it's true.

And the way I read tg's original post was that she brought up the quote "I was in the same marriage but I didn't cheat" as something BSs say because they feel WSs are using the marriage as a "reason"/excuse for infidelity---not that tg herself was saying it.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 1:47 PM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

When I joined, I assumed WS input was welcome in the R forum. Who else is any BS going to R with, after all?

I know it's tough on fWSes who have to deal with newcomers who are still in the throes of fresh pain, and it's tough on the newcomers who are not yet fully convinced that a WS can really become 'former'. (It's tough on both BSes and WSes who hopes for R to read posts from those who believe R isn't possible)

Remember, it's a very rare person who can understand the impact of infidelity without experiencing it himself. It's probably an even rarer person who can understand redemption without seeing it.

I believe R was in our future in any case, but I know that fWS posts in R (and G) gave me hope and, more important, gave me clues about where to put my energy.

I'm very grateful to the WSes who are healing for posting here. For the most part (I can't think of exceptions, though there may be some), you fWSes, men and women, have enriched SI members with your insights and humor and willingness to share.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:41 PM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

Stayedforthekids, I wouldn't expect anything less than sanctimonious 2x4s from you. It's how you roll.

That actually made me laugh. I must be getting soft. Before you know it, some asshole is going to recommend that I read "No More Mr Nice Guy" I (sometimes) miss the rage. It's getting to where I can barely summon it anymore. Hopefully I don't catch empathy.

Remember, it's a very rare person who can understand the impact of infidelity without experiencing it himself. It's probably an even rarer person who can understand redemption without seeing it.

That's a great bit of wisdom sisoon.

Totally agree sisoon.

It's important for both sides to try to understand the opposite point of view.

Sisoon, you always come in with just the right amount of wisdom and sage advice to calm the troubled waters. Thank you.

thank you sisoon...thank you so much

About the same marriage thing - The marriage itself is a known entity, we understood the rules and agreed to them in front of family and friends. Regardless of perspective, it literally was the same marriage.

At some point one of the players in the marriage decided they didn't want to play by the rules anymore. There's a lot of blaming that goes on about WHY they break the rules, most of them IMO are bull poop. People are generally self involved creatures, everything we experience is from OUR perspective, so when our partner acts in an uncaring way it seems like it's deliberately done to us. Most of these 'uncaring' acts are simple selfishness and just not considering the feelings of the other. No big deal, we all do that. But from the 'this was done TO me' perspective, resentment builds and gives justification to hurt the other partner in return.

If resentment were truly the cause of affairs, I believe that all betrayed spouses would have revenge affairs. Maybe I should back away from that inclusive 'all' in the last sentence, because perhaps there are BS's out there that don't resent their WS affair. It could happen.

In the end, this all seems like static to me. Just noise with no truth or purpose behind it. Many (not all certainly) WS cheat because they want to, they find someone appealing, and they think they can get away with it.

Why or how that happens is the important question here. Marriage problems, FOO issues, resentments, all seem like excuses to me and I don't care about any of it. What is important (IMO) to look at is the mechanism of how the choice to cheat occurred. If that can be diagnosed, then perhaps, maybe future affairs can be avoided.

You are exactly right DF.

Sisoon nails it again. I get what you're saying about not being in the same marriage, but doesn't almost everything and every relationship boil down to perspectives? WH and I were in the same marriage, which was in sorry shape mostly because of his neglect, which seems to be fairly common that the one who cheats is usually the taker in the marriage. I mean, there's not much denying that they were at least extremely selfish. Therefore he perceives that I don't love him because he had been chipping away at it for years with his anger and criticisms, and as a result, strikes up an ego feeding "relationship" with someone who will tell him how great he is because her husband is so mean to her (exactly how he was with me, BTW).

So he finds himself in a sad marriage with a wife who doesn't "love him" and it's a world all of his own making. Meanwhile I'm trying to figure out what I've done to make him not care about me and not understand how hard I was trying to do everything "right" for him.

We both get what was happening. Now. Too bad it took a nuclear explosion to get there.

ETA: Hope I am not offending any FWS here. I honestly forget that some of you are, which must mean that we experience many of the same feelings about this shitty ride.

[This message edited by tiredofcrying59 at 6:09 PM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

I'm a little late to this thread. I've used this exact line against a MC that was determined to look for fault in the marriage rather than point the blame at WH where it belonged. I guess my translation is "I was also unhappy with our relationship but I didn't break my vows".

I agree with Sisoon, I think having WS opinions have given me much better insight as to what is going on with her and us. This is an informational board and the more information I can get the better.

To the question at hand, I do agree that we all look at things though our own prisms. The things that hurts me the most was that my perspective of our marriage was that it was good and that we were in a great place.

Though she now claims that it was the case for her, I don't believe it. Something in her perspective led her to believe that things were lacking in our relationship so much so she was willing to risk a 25 year marriage. At that point in time we were seeing things from way different angles even though we we both I thought happy. I go back and try to piece back the clues, and I can see some, but none to let me believe she could do what she did and in a way that was so intentionally hurtful. So in that sense we were in way different marriages.

I think that for me the blindside part of this hurts the most.

At first, I rolled my eyes. Sometimes I hate these semantics arguments. But there were a lot of good points made on both sides. I really thought that dragonflies made some great points about both playing the same game but with different rules. And I liked a lot of Merida's points, too.

But then there were a lot of good points on the other side- WAL especially. And I hated that because I love the idea that we're just two different people in the same marriage.

I guess the same marriage to me just means that we're working together toward the same goals. When he cheated, his goals changed for a while and then we definitely were not in the same marriage. But once again, I feel we are in the same marriage because we, again, have the same goals.

I like saying we're in the same marriage because we're a team and there's a bond and warmth to believing I'm in the same marriage with him. And I like that we have different perspectives because I think that makes us both better at being a team. As a team, we balance each other and I don't think we would if we both thought in the same way or had exactly the same view of our marriage. I work on me for him and he works on himself for me. And somewhere in there, we meet and walk the same path. Maybe that's not the same marriage to some of you. That's okay. It seems SI is like a marriage and some of us have different perspectives but I think we're all working toward the same goals.

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 10:45 PM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

Also, any person that keeps their word does have a bit more fortitude than one that does not. That math is pretty simple.

In an unhappy marriage, it may simply be that the opportunity to cheat came along SOONER for one partner than the other. That is something my BH and I both agree on. Had some sweet young thing begun pursuing him on the job --in the state our marriage was in THEN, likely he would have pulled the cheating card before I.

In an unhappy marriage, it may simply be that the opportunity to cheat came along SOONER

it may... as in so many cases the answer is: it depends

sucha cool thread and yes when as wincing pointed out the path is trod years out, than the scope of hurts can be broadened.

Relationship progresses IMO like a spiral, we cycle yet hopefully coming around again we build on our past to create a better future. And sometimes that means using an irritant the way a clam makes a pearl

I agree, Sisoon - well said

tiredgirl, you rock for just being forthright and owning the work

frankly, just kudos for you hanging in there to realize that yeah, that boundary cross and self-betrayal didn't do a damn thing to feel better about staring through the mirror

I think we can all agree we are all flawed in our perceptions at times

and that it was the series of awful choices and catastrophic failure to "connect the dots" and the whole conversion of 'zentments into hand-grenades is exactly why to truly reconcile takes hard work years on out. IMO well after the partners have crawled out of the blast-zone and the betrayed has seen enough evidence to determine diplomatic relations are even possible because the mind-fuck that is infidelity ain't just a stepping on my toe "mistake"

the whole - I know this hurts and is wrong and I don't give two whits about consequences - takes awhile for that "reality" to be re-structured back into answering

who is this that I am dancing with 'cause the unknown future might be a better partner

in my own sich while I wasn't unfaithful to Katumus I was the crappy on again/ off again girlfriend before him so I can tag as SMS a high five for claiming to be "liberated" ... until I realized we were just mutually masterbating and not really connecting

but I hadn't really healed so what in the heck did I know 20 years ago about connection?

nothing like now... and that is ok

yeah, choosing spectrum does have a whole other angle to figuring out how to enjoy connection. I likened it to me having to stop trying to get Katumus to read me a book = he's blind = unless that book is written in braille and he can read with his fingers

It has been incredibly humbling to say the least that I am honored in this realm and called to truly see thanks to the gift of an OC with autism that is our marriage's helper along the way to getting Katumus tested and the two of us gaining a fuller understanding of just how different we see sometimes

No it doesn't negate the crappy choices and I still for the life of me fail to comprehend how he could throw the marriage away "for nothing" as he admitted BUT in the same manner I am not the stooopid girl I was 20 years ago, he ain't doomed to be stuck

Yeah, neurodiversity put things into a whole other perspective don't it? For me, a whole lotta lightbulbs about his "I'm wired this way" comments suddenly made sense

So if the point of posting was about acknowledging different perspectives and nothing to attach to an excuse for a crappy coping mechanism, agreed.

IMO for there to be R and a "real" marriage, it is an acknowledgment that it is discovering the sound of one hand clapping - it is relational not rational knowledge. And that knowledge is gained over time because of the willingness and free choice to invest in wanting to truly see the naked self and love by action sometimes in spite of feeling the opposite

and that ain't easy in a conditional world.

I thought two people make a commitment to overcome those perspective differences in a manner that appreciates how their lives are enriched by said differences. That their life is made fuller by the experiences of sharing that life together.

It is the journey itself - together - that is the whole point.

I mean - I would hate a world full of "me" 'cause I cannot see "everything there is to see" as I am limited in my world-view. As a human, my brain has two unconscious sections called unknown-to-me/known-to-others, and unknown/unknown. So I need another to point out what I can't see = like pointing out I have spinach in my teeth.

That, I thought was supposed to be the shared goal and commitment. You tell me when I have spinach that needs to be removed, and don't worry, I got your back, I'll tell you. We protect and defend the marriage together.

google : she-wolf protects male throat

This picture I think captures the goal. And please know I am not gender biased, the point is to show a natural partnership...

It is a beautiful metaphor, this image of two wolves. Alpha and his mate - she is right there under his throat so now the outsider has two sets of fangs to deal with...

Regarding betrayal pain it is devastating (duh) IMO to get broken open by our own mate attacking us from behind - because we sucked at mind reading and there was no communication to bring what was unconscious as in the "hurt" their "needs" etc. whatever issues to the surface and address them by coming toward one another in a protect and defend sacred space together

But if as was said = years down the road and thanks be to the GRACE that carries us on the wind = two broken souls can heal and help each other get to the mountaintop

it's a heckofa lot better view than the pit we crawled out of on D-day

so thanks for reading this whole ramble...

I thought it was obvious that in the physical sense, two bodies cannot occupy the same space.

To me this concept of "same" state is like how the mind is located relative to the brain. A brain is matter and mind is spirit. Our experience or perspective is filtered through our brains neurally speaking. But I don't subscribe to complete materialism. I don't subscribe to we are merely complicated rats running more complicated mazes.

I believe we are a spirit in a vessel and that transfer of matter and energy creates the cycle of what we call "life" as observed-observer connection.

A "marriage" therefore is not merely physical - it is spiritual, it is a concept of mind. For two shall become o-n-e.

Perspective filtered through a brain is unique to the person, so based on subject matter and experience it cannot be shared until it is spoken aloud and questioned and empathized with and understood by both parties. I didn't say agreed to, I simply said understood. My goal is not to be you, but to understand you.

The ven diagram of two circles intersecting creates a shared third space and THAT SPACE I envisioned was our sacred marital home

and it was written about earlier that is often not the view of what is called "wayward" hence the out of balance

so back again to how sand can be useful

our choice how we take life's irritants so here is to hoping as was mentioned in the beginning this thread ain't just slinging platitudes

peace as ya'll process because the blind can read, just have to be taught braille ...

[This message edited by Merida at 8:09 AM, June 23rd (Friday)]

Same marriage. Same vows and promises. Just different perspectives. That doesn't invalidate the saying. Yeah, we come with different baggage but that doesn't excuse our choices when you make the same vows. We may experience it differently based on our character and perspectives but that still doesn't change accountability to uphold promises and it doesn't change that it is the same marriage. So you argue against it? I wouldn't add that statement at the end. I didn't cheat. When you add it you and pointing out that, you make it seem like cheating is a valid choice based on one's perspective of the marriage.

But not because your in the same marriage and go through the same things and one has more fortitude than the other.

It has everything to do with fortitude IMO regardless of perspective of the same marriage or how you experience it from that perspective. It is still the same marriage, same events (unless you are doing shit like I did behind my wife's back) just different perspectives and the marriage itself and perspective are two different things. A ball is a ball. I might see it as a toy. My wife might see it as a learning tool. It is still a ball.

"We were both in the same marriage...I didn't cheat."

Isn't that a response from a BS when a WS decides to blame the marriage for their infidelity? Of course, posters are going to tie the discussion to infidelity. Your tag line mentions cheating and an implied excuse to cheat. Coming from the mouth of a BS. I have used that line when my husband tried to say he was unhappy with the fact we spent little alone time together. I was in the same situation. From my experience and perspective, probably worse because I never got time away from being a SAHM. I was unhappy at times too. I knew that it would pass and things would get better as our young children became independent more. I feel we were in the same marriage. I chose to buckle down and work hard. He chose to bail out. The focus isn't on it being the same marriage. The focus is on that fact that one remained faithful and like myself problem solved. The other cheated and created more problems. What does it matter how the marriage is perceived? It still relies upon how the perceiver problem solves. I don't understand why the focus is on the marriage being the same or different to the people involved in the marriage as opposed to the choices one makes when unhappy. The "I didn't cheat or I did cheat." part should be the focus here. It is the only thing you can really control. When I made that statement, I focused on my choices to a problem. I was calling my husband to focus on his.