SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I sure hope most guys aren't that way. I think most of us wives thought we had trustworthy husbands who wouldn't do such a thing. To see the statistics that 60% of married men cheat is so disheartening. Almost a crapshoot to get married again - no matter how nice someone seems.

will NOT act ethically when around attractive women.

That is the same as saying they can't or won't help it.

I stand by my recommendation. If women have what all men want, then we are fools to accept anything less than every red cent a man has to his name before we have sex. My daughter is a teenager, and I will start educating her now.

I hear your warning and will act.

I will add one thing:

Then maybe it's ok that women try to take everything in divorce? (Only if he was the cheater.) Maybe the law should be if a man cheats he loses everything? I can think of nothing else that would stop the kind of entitled sex that you speak of. And ultimately, if men stop pursuing due to losing everything, women won't have anyone to say No to?

Prenups

Prenups

Prenups

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:13 PM, January 13th (Sunday)]

But my question remains, if men know women will have less sex once married, why do they get married if sex trumps all? Why not remain single. Why trick them?

To see the statistics that 60% of married men cheat is so disheartening. Almost a crapshoot to get married again - no matter how nice someone seems.

It's not "almost a crapshoot". It is a crapshoot, plain and simple. Does that mean not to try? IMHO, no, it does not. But, at the same time, I don't think I would have tried for a LTR/marriage again if I D'ed, it just wasn't something I wanted for myself to start from. My wife wanted it deeply, and, I wanted my wife to be happy more than anything in the world, so I did it. But it really doesn't hold a lot of value for me (marriage), fidelity, yes, for sure. And keeping your word, commitments, etc; for sure. But marriage is a piece of paper, and it has stopped very few from cheating, IMHO. And, of course, the statistics back that up.

will NOT act ethically when around attractive women.

That is the same as saying they can't or won't help it.

No, it's not at all saying the same thing. They can help it. They choose not to. What I think is impossible to help is sexualizing very attractive women, no matter how hard I try, that's impossible for me. But I can choose not to engage with women I know I'll sexualize. The trick they teach people in AA isn't to "not have the 12th beer" it's to not have the first one. And that's the trick for me, I can control the "first drink" and keep myself from picking that one up. Once picked up, then, no, I don't trust myself. But I absolutely decide if I'm going to drink tonight. There's no transference of guilt or blame here; it's just a different way to state the same thing. Yes, it's hard, I'll freely admit that. It's so hard that being friendly beyond work with a really attractive woman is, to me, impossible. But I'm one person, and others feel differently and are different people. But I will say, a whole lot of people are wrong. My wife was wrong; "I can hang out with attractive guys and banter with them at work, no problem". No, wrong, it was a huge problem and still is. A whole lot of people who think "I've got this" are wrong. They "have it" today, but tomorrow, a new temptation will come along and will they have that one? And the next day, after a big fight with their H? Or the day after, when you haven't had sex in a few weeks? Eventually, as proven by the stats, many (most perhaps) will break if they keep playing "the game".

If women have what all men want, then we are fools to accept anything less than every red cent a man has to his name before we have sex. My daughter is a teenager, and I will start educating her now.

What would you tell her? Telling her to "take a man for everything", first off, is not moral in my view, but also, it's not very actionable. Sure, you can make me wait for years before sleeping with me but there are girls who won't do that, and all of them are in the same competition/mating game. The "cartel" where women banded together to raise the value of sex (to the point where the only way to get it was marriage) has long been broken. And it's a shame for young girls, it is, because a lot of them would be much happier with the old system.

I wouldn't tell a woman today to take a man for all he's worth. I'd tell her my objective truth. Most guys will sleep with you if given the chance. Almost all married men, if they are pursing you, are only out for sex. And the majority of unmarried men chasing you are also only out for sex. That's what I see as the "truth". Is it awful? Well, if we believe "women like sex just as much as men" well then, no, not at all. Just as many women should be out for sex as men. I don't believe that to be true, so, yeah, in some ways, I think it sucks for women, but, what do I know. Maybe a lot of girls are thrilled about the hookup/Tinder culture we have now.

I'm not sure what the vitriol towards men is; I'm serious, did a lot of your parents not tell you "most men are just out to score"? My parents told me that all the time and my Mom encouraged me not to be that person (my father never weighed in). But is this really a surprise to a lot of people? Because it seems pretty darn self-evident to me, from the way men behave throughout their lives, the way men talk to one another, the way affair operate, and of course, the best indicator of all, the prostitution market that's been going on forever and assigns a price to sex for men. It's just the way the world is, yes, you can encourage young women to work the system to take advantage of men and that's OK I guess, or you can tell them the simple truth and let them make their own decisions as to what they want.

But my question remains, if men know women will have less sex once married, why do they get married if sex trumps all? Why not remain single. Why trick them?

Well, a lot of them lie to themselves. I know a lot of guys who've sold me the old "woe is me" story about sex (particularly after the birth of their first child) and just look at them like "are you an idiot, what did you expect to happen". But the answer is to your question, at least for me, is simple. I got married because I loved my wife. Not for an endless supply of sex, I was well aware that I could probably get more sex without being married than I could get married. The equation isn't "men only want women for sex" it's "most of the time, men typically pursue and engage women because they want sex". And shoot, while I'm making enemies, I might as well go full on and say, when I started dating my wife, sex was the only goal for me. How fast could I get there and then move on. Except I didn't move on because I loved her. But, yeah, it's a crapshoot, for sure; because there was no way for her to tell (or me, actually) if this was going to be anything more than a quick sexual relationship or turn into a 20 year marriage.

But, yes, speaking for myself, most of the time, it was only for sex. And in an A, at least from the stories I've heard, that turns into "all of the time". But there's another thing here; see, when I was dating single women, even if it was only for sex, the downside for them was pretty small. Again, women are supposed to enjoy sex as much as men, so what if it was short term? You had your fine, I had mine, and we move on. It's in an A where things go "high stakes". Now it's no longer a fun little memory for you if you sleep with a guy and you're wrong about him loving you. Now it's deadly serious, now being wrong has huge repercussions. And, as I said early, you're now in a "dating pool" where a huge majority of the men are, in fact, out for one thing only and have no intention or desire to have a real relationship. Single women sleeping around and dating? Good for them, have fun, enjoy it. If the guy's an ass and drops you, just move on, who cares, no harm, no foul, right? That equation gets turned totally on it's head in an A.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:03 PM, January 13th (Sunday)]

I see a woman that thinks she is moving up the food chain aka golddigger. I'm sure it will last...not.

She’s happy at the moment to think she is the next Mrs Bezos. And the prenup doesn’t matter to her right now because she has what she wants his wife’s place. When she gets replaced with the third wife she will be shocked and devastated and not have a clue about the karma of it all.

RIO you make it sound as though poor clueless women are being taken advantage of by calculating wolves. It’s give and take. Neither is innocent. It’s a trade off and I don’t believe for one minute the AP woman isn’t getting off as much as he is. I love sex and know damn well sexting all day and talking dirty would get me going as much as any man.

[This message edited by Thanksgiving2016 at 9:15 PM, January 13th (Sunday)]

It’s a trade off and I don’t believe for one minute the AP woman isn’t getting off as much as he is. I love sex and know damn well sexting all day and talking dirty would get me going as much as any man.

This is venturing into OT, but what you say, I used to agree with you. But there are 100's, perhaps 1000's of stories on here that say otherwise. WW's recounting their stories that the sex was "just what they had to do" to keep the ego kibbles flowing.

I don't feel like "poor women" are being taken advantage of by wolf men. If anything, I feel like I refute that argument from another poster who indicated they would tell their daughter to wait for marriage and take the guy for all he's worth to counter the fact that some men are only out for sex. If Jeff's AP is out for sex and Jeff is out for sex, then, well, morality be damned, but they are both getting what they want. Now, if the AP is out for money and Jeff doesn't marry her and/or marries with a lopsided pre-nup, well then maybe she is the "poor helpless woman" trading sex for something that she's not going to get.

In my view, before my W's A, I thought it was a simple trade. Sex for sex. I trade sex with me to my wife, she trades sex with her to me. And we're both happy, because we both leave that "richer". I've come to realize that's not necessarily true, of the trade is sex for words. Sex for ego kibbles. Sex for affection. And yes, even sex for money/security (as may be the case with JB's A). Which, while deeply damaging to my personal worldview, psyche and overall sex drive; seems to make a lot of sense in the context of the world that we see around us and the difference between men and women. So, extrapolating this, if the AP in this case is trying to trade "sex for money" instead of "sex for sex" and JB drops her (which I'll peg at a 95% chance), guess what? She will find out retroactively that she was used. He wrote her a "bad check" and she delivered the goods/services and has no way to demand payment. This is where is starts to cross into "used".

Where does the 60% figure come from? (Exact citation, please.)

I think RIO is extrapolating from a very skewed population, which means his opinions are probably not valid for the general population.

IDK ... I was a road warrior for 4 years. Only one of the married members of my team cheated while on the road, and no one on the team respected him anyway

The leadership of the teams I worked on were typically M men in LTMs. We generally had unmarried kids working for us.

We stayed in Hiltons and Marriotts when possible, so it was easy to meet professional women in the bars. We were consultants, so we had lots of leeway with our expense accounts; it would have been easy to bury the cost of the pros. (One asshole client dinged me very hard because I refused to take him to a strip club, which other consultants did for him. My boss told me to give him the credit card, but the SOB insisted that I accompany him. Sheesh.)

Again, none of the M men I worked with cheated, except for the asshole.

The unmarried kids (early- mid-20s) were a different matter, of course.

But the population I was in is pretty skewed, too.

Look, there's no question that women who I think are attractive get my hormones flowing even now. I think, however, it's been easy to act ethically despite the hormones. I could go on with further examples, but you get the drift.

Frankly, I'v done a lot of research into infidelity statistics, and most of them are based on poor questions, skewed samples, or both. Very few support generalizations, and the best I'v seen reports a rate for men of 27% - and it's been consistent for years.

duplicate

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:44 AM, January 15th (Tuesday)]

There is never an excuse for an affair. EVER! But, that being said, considering there was no pre-nup and in a very no-fault state, how bad must things have been for a smart man (he's very smart) to do something so ridiculously stupid? If he was going to cheat, with his money, why wasn't he up to his armpits in 18-22 y/o coeds whose smooth, tight bodies still defy gravity?

"I think RIO is extrapolating from a very skewed population"

agreed, it's like men are chimpanzees who can't control themselves.

Sisoon's posts point out that is not the fact, from his experience.

Rio:

Just wondering what you meant by this:

Simply put, heterosexual men don't say that because it does not work. Gay men, however, do exactly that because, in their case, it does work.

When you say *that* were you referencing your previous sentence?

"and I'll give you a few hundred bucks for the f**k".

Can you clarify what you were saying about homosexual men vs. heterosexual men? Guess I'm a little perplexed.

When you say *that* were you referencing your previous sentence?

Sure, sorry, a bit hard to follow. Hetrosexual men generally do not approach a woman and say "Hey sexy, would you like a toss in the hay" as a pick up line. They don't do that, IMHO, because it very rarely/never works. Gay men, however, often do say exactly that to other men because, again, IMHO, because it often works. They are straightforward and honest in their desires because, well, if you don't have to lie to get what you want, why lie? As an anecdote, in my personal life, I've had 2-3 (can't remember) gay men directly ask me "can I suck your d**k" (sorry for the graphic content, but that's exactly what was said) at nightclubs before. No, "hi, my name is John", no "Can I buy you a drink" no, just right the heart of the matter. I'd like to sleep with you, here's my offer, take it or leave it. I've had 0 women do that. And never even actually heard of a woman doing that with someone she doesn't know and/or already have a relationship with. And I've also never heard of a guy ever having success with a woman using the pick up line "I'd like to bang you until the bed broke" as the "hello". That is, or can be, in fact the exact goal of saying "Great to meet you Jennifer, what do you do for a living", in fact, often in my past, it was.

Can you clarify what you were saying about homosexual men vs. heterosexual men? Guess I'm a little perplexed.

Homosexual men are often more direct and more honest with their intentions when they go after sexual partners. Heterosexual men do not behave that way, not because we're pathological liars, but because it simply does not work. When not retrained (when it will work), I think that's exactly how heterosexual men behave, IE, when engaging with prostitutes and/or if the man is so powerful/rich/famous that he can actually say "how about a BJ" to a woman and get a "yes". I don't think most men enjoy the lying, I think they do it because it gets them what they want.

agreed, it's like men are chimpanzees who can't control themselves.

You aren't reading me correctly. I've said, over and over, that men CAN control themselves. I also further say that many will not or will not successful if placed into situations where sex is on offer. I'm not sure what so offensive and/or controversial about that statement. Every BW here can attest to that. And every BH who's WW's AP was married can also attest to it. Yes, they can, and I can control myself. I, in NO WAY AT ALL, remove the burden of responsibility from men, or, if you believe I do, please allow me to correct it and say "IT'S YOUR CHEATING HUSBANDS FAULT" in as loud a voice as I can muster. Just because, in my view, most men will fail if presented with an attractive/easy enough opportunity doesn't in any way mean that all men will fail. Don't put yourself in places where that opportunity might present itself is my advice, don't walk the tightrope between "friend" and "lover" with women you find sexually attractive and, I can promise you, infidelity rates will drop like a stone.

I'm not sure where the 60% number came from, but it mirrors my life experience, so I do believe it. Yes, I'm pulling from an isolated group that's not reflective of the general population, I freely admit that. But 60% is a lot more believable to me than 25%. However, all that said, it all comes down to your social circle. If your Amish and live in a community of 100 people who all know each other, I think that 25% would seem ridiculously high to them. If your a rock star, or a professional basketball player, I think that 25% would seem ridiculously low them (Like, do they mean, 25% last week? Maybe I could believe that!). (That's a joke, BTW).

most men, all men, does it matter? That's what you're saying - most men can't control themselves.

most men, all men, does it matter? That's what you're saying - most men can't control themselves.

Your reading what's not there. This is what I actually said:

I've said, over and over, that men CAN control themselves.

. I also further say that many will not or will not successful if placed into situations where sex is on offer.

I do think that at least some significant portion of men (which I believe is backed up by A statistics) WILL NOT control themselves if placed into a situation where sex is easily available. Can they? Of course they can. Will they? No, many of them will not.

All men CAN control themselves around attractive women.

Some men WILL NOT control themselves around attractive women.

MOST MEN think they will control themselves around attractive women.

SOME MEN who think they will control themselves around attractive women are wrong, and they have affairs.

That's it, pretty much all of what I'm saying. No, we shouldn't excuse men who do this. No, we shouldn't excuse women who do it either. <the end>

The money helps.

I ONLY wish that I could get a divorce and still have a safe home to live in with my daughter.

I would LOVE to be able to continue the quality counseling I have been getting.

I will lose my home and my vehicle. And probably my furniture too. I will have to stop seeing my counselor. All of these plans were laid with both incomes in mind.

My counselor was divorced and she spoke of being awarded the house, half of their substantial assets, all these self help seminars, child and spousal support. All I can think is, if you find yourself in this hot mess...it would be nice to know your basic needs will still be met.

You expect us to live on guard for most, if not all, of our lives? Not believing any kindness? Any friendship? Any assistance?

To take a step back to a more generalized level, this world is a broken place and a significant percentage of people are self-centered and willing to manipulate to get what they want. So, unfortunately, all of us have to parse other's intentions and try to gain insight into other's character to see if a kindness, assistance or friendship is genuine or just a means of manipulation. That sucks. It doesn't absolve or justify those type of people at all, but, instead, is the unfortunate reality that we live in.

To apply this back to the specific discussion, unfortunately, yes, women should be cautious around men. As a man, it is disappointing to have to live under the suspicion and reputation that others create. However, I've heard way too many comments that reveal the underlying attitudes and intentions of many men. As a BS of a serial cheater, I'm painfully aware of just how manipulative men can be as I knew all of the APs and one I even considered to be my BFF (ETA - this also highlights that there are women to be wary of as well as I'm not absolving my WS of responsibility here).

To apply this all back to the original topic of this thread, Jeff Bezos embodies all of it. Despite the external image and proclamations about the importance of trust in leadership/business, he is just one of many out there that is self-centered and willing to manipulate others. He betrayed his wife and his "friend", the AP's husband, through a largely unknown series of actions.

Unfortunately, society accepts it. Media is covering it primarily because it sells. Stories focus on the impact to Amazon stock. Or about how the AP has a magnetic personality and is a pilot. Or how Washington state law will award half of "Jeff's" money to his BS. Nothing is said about how how Jeff is a self-centered, manipulative hypocrite. Or how the BS's have been psychologically and emotionally abused. In fact, the media is happy to sell their product in ways that can amplify their pain.

It is a very broken world that we live in.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 7:32 AM, January 15th (Tuesday)]

" As a man, it is disappointing to have to live under the suspicion and reputation that others create. However, I've heard way too many comments that reveal the underlying attitudes and intentions of many men."

question - do you ever call other men out on this?

if it affects you and is a distinct lack of morality that puts others in jeopardy, shouldn't all men try to put a stop to it?

I don't agree with RIO's statistics. I think the ones supplied by sisoon are more accurate. The lastest study I'm aware of had about 25% of men and 20% of women committing adultery. However, I do agree with his assertion of men on the prowl. I've seen it with my own eyes through a fairly long career. There are some married men looking for any opening - throw out the lure, get a nibble, play it a little more, set the hook. Somehow they seemed to be able to sense a potential prospect. Maybe it was the first lure they threw out that gave them evidence, I don't know.

We all have the power to make choices. "It just happened" is a total bullshit. Choices were made before it just happened. Some make the choice to prospect. But that doesn't mean all or most but whatever the number it's too many.

I think it's fools play to pretend there aren't dangers in the world. I have three daughters and you can bet you ass that there were discussion around the dangers that exist while dating. Not to make them fearful of every shadow but to make sure they were cognizant of their surroundings, to be careful with situations that made them uncomfortable and to be analytical. The youth group through church probably did more in that regard than I did.

I was a 25 year old virgin when I first had sex with my WW before we wed. The background on all that is too long to write out again. But I had a number of opportunities, some pretty blatant, before my WW. Even with a high sex drive it's possible to make those choices. The point RIO makes is that there are too many men who make a choice to take advantage of and even search out the opportunities. Not all men and not the majority, IMO, but too many. They are out there as are car jackers, muggers, rapists and other less than desirable characters.

It's also a choice to not play with fire. Don't allow or put yourself in a situation where you are in a private setting with a member of the opposite sex. Don't play with fire, test the waters or push the envelop. Married men and even single men do that. They make the choice to not test their resolve.

I have called the few married men I am aware of out on this. I have also worked against them in the organization to try and keep them from moving up the ladder (usually not successfully but it was very few). I have cut off any contact with a few who I found out about. I publicly stated approval when a Vice President in my organization was terminated. I didn't know about the adultery until just before his termination. I wasn't often invited out for dinks after work with "the guys" because I would make my point of view known even if it was only about them complaining about their wives.

I don't know why I jumped into this debate. I usually stay away from them. I think there is a personal responsibility to be aware of potential unsafe situations, be aware and plan accordingly.