SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Welp, you know where this is going. The cheating spouse uses that refusal to divorce to torture the betrayed. They continue their abuse and cheating. They gaslight. They blameshift. They do crazy-ass things like issue ultimatums such as “We have to get divorced if I can’t have my “friend.”

Tell me how the BS is going to really heal themselves in that situation?

You keep missing the whole point of the BS has to heal themselves -

They can not be dependent on the actions of the WS (or anyone else) make them happy (aka, heal).

What's the solution to the problem you posited? The BS DIVORCES them, not sitting around waiting for the WS to do it - or change. The BS takes control of their own lives/actions.

All the other "scenarios" you posit are just creating straw-men arguments to say that the BH just can't heal. But this gives the lie to your senarios:

I get that in every circumstance the BH could have divorced, gotten another counselor, or magically made the AP disappear. But for whatever reason – they did not happen. And it is not an unfamiliar theme on this board. Either due to ignorance or simply the cost of action is perceived by the betrayed as greater than the cost of inaction (due to children, jobs, whatever), circumstances make healing not possible.

The BH CHOOSES to stay in this shitty marriage/life vs actually taking actions to get out of it. Again, you are putting the BS's well being in the hands of someone else. No bueno.

If you are choosing to stay in a bad situation, then all the "reasons" are just excuses for not taking action.

That's a pretty simple concept, but it can be hard for some (most?) people to grasp. Hell, it took me five years of my ex making and breaking promises (not to cheat, not to spend all our money, etc) for it to sink in.

It took a therapist telling me that all those "reasons" I was giving her "one more" chance were just excuses I was making up to not take action. Once, I internalized that, my choices became much clearer.

You don’t just will yourself out of trauma.

Agreed, but ... a trauma victim does have to will him/herself to do the work and get the help he needs. And no matter what help a BS gets, it's the BS who has to repair the damage to himself.

Even the best therapist only helps the client create or strengthen his own resources. Therapists/ICs don't and can’t cure people. They can only help people cure themselves. In that sense, the damage done by infidelity if very different from that done by cancer.

Let's remember we're talking about infidelity here and not traumas like being raped, or being a victim of CSA, other child abuse, serious bodily damage, war, etc.

The proposition 'BS heals BS' holds a lot of unwritten meaning within it. It needs some amplification to be helpful, although sometimes I use it in the hope of shocking someone out of a Victim role. I would not use it without amplification with victims of traumas other than infidelity.

I don't mean it's fair in any way that the BS has to heal him/herself.

Let's say (this is not true for us) that I gave him sex once or twice a week. It was pretty good sex, but not a lot of variance and kind of a means to an end type sex.

IDK ... I sort of think M sex takes 2.

If one partner is bored with sex, IMO it's that partner's responsibility to bring the issue up. And if sex doesn't get better, IMO the solution is acceptance or D, not an A. We all agree on that, right?

If you look at statistics you will see that the percentage of betrayed men who reconcile successfully is lower than betrayed women.

The statistics on this could not be clearer, in fact, they are so overwhelming it's kind of surprising how significant the divide is.

Please, please, please - no statistics without stating the source. And no statistics without evaluating them critically before posting.

Without sources, statistics are over-generalizations. As such they violate SI guidelines.

What I want, and what I think we owe each other, is either reliable statistics or no statistics at all.

Try this: if you find yourself wanting to include some unverifiable numbers into your post, ask yourself why you need that false backup. Then adjust your post as your answer dictates.

We know that the first thing that people say when we find out a husband has been cheating is that “ his wife must not been giving him what he wants she he went elsewhere”

That's certainly true for some of our fellow human beings. Others will say, ‘Poor guy. She’s just a slut.’

It’s hard to shut that sort crap out, but the less we let other people’s ignorance stop or slow down our recovery, the better.

IMO, healing is more successful if we minimize the loudness of conventional 'wisdom' and maximize the loudness of the inner voices that tell each BS what s/he needs to do to recover.

IMO, healing is more successful if we minimize the loudness of conventional 'wisdom' and maximize the loudness of the inner voices that tell each BS what s/he needs to do to recover.

And, there it is.

Let's say (this is not true for us) that I gave him sex once or twice a week. It was pretty good sex, but not a lot of variance and kind of a means to an end type sex.

IDK ... I sort of think M sex takes 2.

If one partner is bored with sex, IMO it's that partner's responsibility to bring the issue up. And if sex doesn't get better, IMO the solution is acceptance or D, not an A. We all agree on that, right?

Yes. We all agree on that. It was a sloppy example, but it was born of this thread and others like it. In the scenarios most of the BH's give, they were willing to accept their sex life as satisfactory and the A changed what they are now willing to accept.

I don't find that to be an unfair concept, and that is the crux of my point. This would be universal to BH's and BW's. The affair is a game changer and some of these things might not have even been a complaint before.

A man and woman can each be sex gods with other people, yet have no sexual compatibility with each other. I don't believe that means they cannot work on their sex life and come to some level of enjoyment and fulfillment, they just have to put more work into it.

My fWW is not the best sex partner I've ever had. That distinction goes to a gal I dated back in college. That gal was also not marriage material and was most likely mentally ill. But she was hot in bed. Sex to her was like a religious experience.

To be honest, I stopped dwelling on whether or not my fWW enjoyed sex with her AP more than me long ago. Through my EMDR and IC I found a way to just let that go. I know I'm not a total loser in bed. MyfWW and my past partners have attested that much. Hopefully not all seven women are liars.

My fWW claims the sex was no better, just different. And I actually believe her. I can tell when she's bullshitting and when she means it.

She also admitted, painfully, that she enjoyed having sex with both her OM and me. Unlike many women, my fWW does not equate sex with intimacy, so she had no problem having sex with both of us. I have heard that some WW have to completely cut off their husbands in order to have sex with their APs. Mine did not. So I guess in my fWW's case, there was no plan A or B.

I think it all depends on the WW is what I'm saying; what her motivations and thought processes are and so on.

[This message edited by LivingWithPain at 2:17 PM, March 18th (Monday)]

I can't remember everything that was said, and I don't know how to quite on my phone, so I'm going to wing this.

I totally agree that it's perfectly reasonable for a BP to want that wild, crazy, adventurous, enthusiastic, porn A sex. Nothing wrong with that. But, just like with all the other demands we make after dday, the CP always has the right to refuse for any reason, whether it makes sense to us or not. Then, we basically have 3 choices. We can D. We can make the most of what we get, accepting all the other thanks the remorseful CP does for R. Or, we can just continue on and be miserable.

If you really want to R, you may have to accept that you are just not going to get that sex. If you can't accept that, which is perfectly fine, you can D. What else is there?

I can't erase all the things that my fCH said to and did for the OW. I can't take them for me and my kids instead. If I want to R, I have to accept that he did those things with someone else and that they have nothing to do with my worth. And as RIO likes to point out, they don't mean he was in love with her instead of me even though he acted like it and told her so.

If I thought he truly was in love with her instead of me, I wouldn't stay with him. If I thought he really only wanted sex with her and was only having sex with me out of obligation or some such thing, I would D.

LivingWithPain, You said "My fWW claims the sex was no better, just different"

Is there any chance sex with WW is better now after Dday than before Dday?

I have read for some couples sex actually improves after a betrayed spouse works through the pain and forgives a remorseful wayward spouse.

If you really want to R, you may have to accept that you are just not going to get that sex. If you can't accept that, which is perfectly fine, you can D. What else is there?

No, you're right, those are the choices. But those choices exist for all A issues, if your WH won't stop talking to the OW, you have 2 choices, stay or leave. Where this differs isn't in the choices provided, it's in the commentary surrounding those choices. If a BH came here and told us "She won't stop f(*(ing the OM" we'd all say, in unison, "180 and get out of there". If that same BH came here and said "My wife slept with the OM 4X a day and had anal sex with him each time they were together and won't with me" there would be a big split in messages. Some posters (me) would say the same thing, 180, get out of there and never look back, she doesn't love/respect/care about you. But other posters would change their message and say "It's her choice" and "You need to accept it and move on". Or even, and yes, this has been said, "Demanding anal as part of R is akin to rape". That's the issue here, it's got nothing to do with the choices and everything to do with the acceptability of certain requests/demands in R.

What else is there is setting the expectation that an A changes the rules. And if you went all "porn star" with the AP, you don't get to say "I want to R, but I want to go back to my monthly duty sex" anymore than I'd get to say "I want to R, but I really love having sex with the OW, so maybe I'll just hide it better and treat my wife better when I'm with her and I'll be "all good"".. Nope, it won't be "all good" in either situation, and while my W has every right to go back to duty sex, and I have ever right to keep seeing the fictional OW, neither of those actions is in anyway supportive or helpful for R. In fact, they are the opposite of that, a HUGE wedge in the way of successful R. And that's the point of it, and that's the reason I engage in these threads, in the hopes that WW realizes "this is part and parcel of R", much like most WW's (including mine) seem to realize "porn star sex is part and parcel of an A".. But they seem to sign up for that happily at the time, the same as they should sign up happily for it in R. And if they don't want to sign up for it, I suggest that A, you don't have an affair, and B, you don't bother with R or, if you do, at least give your BS a one sided open relationship (let them sleep with other people) so that they might experience the things that you shared with the OM/OW and won't with them.

I have read for some couples sex actually improves after a betrayed spouse works through the pain and forgives a remorseful wayward spouse.

My sex life is objectively MUCH better now than before the A. In fact, it's the kind of sex life I know 99 out of 100 men would kill to have. It's just so tarnished because of the A, and because of the lengths I had to go to get my wife to understand "This MATTERS a LOT to me" that the overall experience is less positive than it should be. And the sad thing, if my W had just "pulled herself together" out of the A and gone straight into porn star/great sex as a "I'm so sorry, I made the wrong choice, and I'm going to make it better" I think my pain over this issue would have long ago dissipated. Sadly, that's not what happened, it was a long winding path to get where we are now, and that path was not at all pleasant.

It's hard to say, but my advice for a WW after d-day is pretty darn simple.. This is an easy thing to prevent/fix. Just say "I'm sorry" and "I'm going to make it up to you" and then do it. It's not the godd*mn hard, it really isn't. People in normal/loving relationships without an A are having all kinds of "porn star" sex right now, anal, swallowing, facials, all of it, and they are doing it because it's fun and feels good. Often when I read threads where there's just such reluctance to do these things I think to myself, my goodness, we are just so different. If I had an A and my "punishment" was "you have to go down on me for 30 minutes each night", I'd think I died and went to heaven! Shoot, I have an A just to get that "punishment"! Because having my wife want to "use me" for sex is about the most intoxicating thing that I can imagine; which, I realize, is probably where a huge part of the divide comes between the sexes.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 2:57 PM, March 18th (Monday)]

LivingWithPain, You said "My fWW claims the sex was no better, just different"

Is there any chance sex with WW is better now after Dday than before Dday?

I have read for some couples sex actually improves after a betrayed spouse works through the pain and forgives a remorseful wayward spouse.

As a matter of fact, yes the sex is better now. But not in the way you may think.

There are two aspects of my fWW that I was unaware of:

1) She is one of those rare women who does not equate sex with love or intimacy. To her sex is sex... something two people do to have fun and make each other feel good. She does not feel intimacy in sex, whereas I need her to have sex with me in order to know she loves me.

2) My fWW is a submissive who likes to be dominated in the bedroom. I was not aware of this when we were dating, and she never told me because she did not want me to think she was a freak. I would have gladly been aggressive with her in bed had I known...but I didn't know because she never felt safe telling me her needs.

Her OM dominated the hell out of her in bed and she loved it, but that was because he was a fantasy partner and she wasn't worried about what he thought of her, or whether or not she was offending him. She didn't plan on the affair lasting, so she had nothing to lose.

Now I toss her around the bed, do light bondage and all that. She tells me we are now having the best sex she has ever had, because I'm giving her what she wants and because she also loves me.

Yes, quantitatively the sex is better now than before her A, but not emotionally. I have lots of hot sex now with my fWW, but that is all it is now...just good, hot sex. I no longer feel any intimacy or love when I'm having sex with her, and that makes me sad.

[This message edited by LivingWithPain at 4:35 PM, March 18th (Monday)]

LivingWithPain, have you worked through all your pain yet by going to therapy, being vulnerable with your wife, ect and forgiving your wife for her actions ?

How long ago was Dday for you?

The ws create fantasy relationships in which they can do things they don't do IRL. When I saw my fwh upclose interacting with his ap, it was like watching the behavior of a stranger - it was very unlike him. From reading on SI, ws relate frequently that they feel like a different person with their ap and can be more open to things.

Is the issue that the ws need to identify & incorporate those "willing to do" parts of their personality into their IRL M, so that they are more honest with their BS about their needs and personality? It's like role-playing or split personality issues - they were hiding a part of themselves from their spouse and let it out with their ap. They need to merge those personas into one for their spouse.

And, I know this thread is focusing on the sexual aspects of the A & the M, but I believe it can apply to any aspect of the A relationship. Enjoyed giving gifts to their ap -> add that to the M. Enjoyed going places with the ap or doing activities with the ap -> find a way to add that to the M. If the ws did those things with both ap and BS, there's damage done to the BS who knows this. The ws needs to work hard to undo that damage.

The affair is a game changer and some of these things might not have even been a complaint before.

^^^Yes. I don't think I was settling. I think I was accepting fwh how he was (presenting himself), flaws and all.

IMO, healing is more successful if we minimize the loudness of conventional 'wisdom' and maximize the loudness of the inner voices that tell each BS what s/he needs to do to recover.

And, I know this thread is focusing on the sexual aspects of the A & the M, but I believe it can apply to any aspect of the A relationship. Enjoyed giving gifts to their ap -> add that to the M. Enjoyed going places with the ap or doing activities with the ap -> find a way to add that to the M. If the ws did those things with both ap and BS, there's damage done to the BS who knows this. The ws needs to work hard to undo that damage.

Why would the BS WANT to do things that WS did with AP? WS met AP on a skiing trip, they loved skiing together. Hey BS, let's do more skiing?!?

Many if not most BS make their own sacrifices in marriage. Give things up the WS doesn't like to do. Learn to accept things. Learn to be happy. AND they don't cheat.

So now the A happens and the solution is to make WS more fulfilled in the marriage? Screw that. How about the WS busting their butt to do things the BS likes to do? New experiences, not crap the WS just had to cheat to have.

Even with sex, why this thread was started, when BH are getting more and better it seems to have a taint to it. Because they know they didn't get there first. AP did. And WW can't always come up with new things there. Then what?

And WW can't always come up with new things there. Then what?

Well, in a long term A, you might be right. But the list of "new things" is just so long, I can near promise you, there's something on that list that both was not done with the AP and your WH would desire. If anyone needs ideas, please feel free to PM, I have a very active imagination.

We talk about the "typical A" stuff here a lot. Oral sex, swallowing, facials, anal. But there's a solid million things I could add to that list without much effort. Watching porn together, bondage, S/M, domination, going to strip club together, having sex on an airplane, having a threesome, having sex while other people watch. Now, of course, not all of those are your (or my) fantasies, but, unless the OM was a chronic overachiever in the bedroom, the surface was just scratched by the A (almost all A's) for ways you can sexually please one another.

RIO, absolutely the situation and choices apply to every aspect of R. That's my point. To use your example (which I find very sexist, btw ), if I demanded that my fCH bought me shiny, expensive things because he bought things for the OW (totally hypothetical, btw. He bought her a pair of socks for her birthday.), and he refused because he had since come to his senses and realized we couldn't afford that kind of thing, I only have so many choices. Basically, either except that and R, or D. I could stay with my fCh and continue to obsess over it, too. Thing is, the only person that hurts is me. One way or the other, I have to let it go. What I would not want is my fCH spending all of our money and putting us in major debt to buy me such thongs.

And, they certainly do get it say they aren't going to do whatever it is you want. They get to say whatever they want. They are people, not property. It's up to you to decide what to do if that is their response.

It's the obsessive, hyper focus on the sex that bothers me. That's the same to me as BWs being hyper focused on the idea that their CH must've been in love with the OW. That can be just as damaging to a BW as the A sex is to a BH.

I know what my fCH did with the OW. It wasn't much. One BJ the first time and intercourse once the 2nd time. She left right after. I know the details of the sex, too. It was quite vanilla. It really bothered me at first, hence the crying during sex. If we ended up in the position they used, I could not stop the mind movies. Should I have just stopped having sex because he did the same thing with her that he did with me? Certainly, I wasn't special to him sexually if he could do that, right?

I had to, eventually, let that go if I wanted to R. In case you haven't noticed, I come from the position/assumption of R because that's my experience.

You are still relatively early in this process. It takes years to accept all of it. So, I get that this is still on your mind. I hope that one day you will be able to move past it whether you R or not.

Someone here said people lie about their emotions to get something. I never did that. I think there are some people who are likewise honest.

I think the ones that try out a wide range of people are more likely to put higher value on the physical aspect.

It was never the most important for me. It was always about the soul not the body.

To use your example (which I find very sexist, btw ), if I demanded that my fCH bought me shiny, expensive things because he bought things for the OW (totally hypothetical, btw. He bought her a pair of socks for her birthday.), and he refused because he had since come to his senses and realized we couldn't afford that kind of thing, I only have so many choices. Basically, either except that and R, or D. I could stay with my fCh and continue to obsess over it, too.

What did I say that was sexist? I try to avoid that, but the genders are different, no matter how much we want them to be the same.

To your example, that's more like one story I read about a BH who's wife had a wildly sexual A and then, IIRC, discovered around d-day that she had some awful medical condition that precluded her from having sex in the future. She was unable to do it though, and that's a very different than "I don't feel like it" answer that many BS's get (for all things, not just sex).

To make your analogy work for me, you had to imagine that your husband is really rich. Like, never spend it all rich. And shiny things are really important to you. Now, run the analogy again and see how you feel about his refusal to buy you something like what he bought the AP (socks, really?!) and see how you feel. Because it's not a "we can afford it" issue (except in the case of "I just can't do that anymore because of some injury or illness", in fact, it's much more the wildly rich husband buying 3ct diamonds for the AP (when diamonds are your favorite thing, as the BS) and then telling you "buying nice things for people makes me feel used for my money, so I got you some Skittles for our anniversary". All the while looking at his 9 figure bank account and laughing.

And that's the thing, when this issue gets discussed, WS's (of either sex) withholding sexual things from the A are "rich". They can have as much and as kinky sex as they want to. They can "buy" any gift they desire for their BS. It's not that they can't afford it, they just won't buy it because "buying diamonds just isn't my thing". Yes, I bought them for the OW, but that's only because (insert babble here). But the analogy of a poor family forgoing gifts for one another isn't valid here, my wife has plenty of "sex" (as do I), we're both wildly rich in that department. I can never "spend it all", no matter who or how often I share it (and neither can she). So if I decide not to buy something nice for her, it's not because I can't, it's because I won't. And perhaps that was OK before the A when we were rich but I was always known as a very frugal man. After I spend a million dollars on jewlery for the OW though, I think most people would agree, it's no longer OK to say "that's just not me". If it's important to your BW and it's in your capacity to do so, especially if you did it for the OW, what we're talking about here isn't "can't do" it's "won't do" (and most likely because, in this example "my wife just isn't worth spending the money on and the OW was").

It's the obsessive, hyper focus on the sex that bothers me. That's the same to me as BWs being hyper focused on the idea that their CH must've been in love with the OW. That can be just as damaging to a BW as the A sex is to a BH.

I agree with you. And I often pipe in on BW threads saying "but he said he loved her" and "he must have loved her" to drop off the "good news", I've been privy to lots of affairs (as told by OM to me), not a SINGLE ONE of them has had anything at all to do with love. And very few of them had anything at all to do with being unhappily married or unhappy with their wives. They were driven by sex, the men wanted sex with someone new and an A is where you get that if you're a married man. Point A leads to Point B. Yes, it's just as bad, perhaps worse because it's so mercenary, but, love? Nope, and assuming that is just going to cause all kinds of pain that likely doesn't need to be there. But we're conflating two things here, my discussion about diamonds and Skittles is "doing what you did for the AP", this is more ascribing motivations to the WS based on our own personal bias. Yes, I thought my W entered into an A for sex, because that's the reason I'd enter into one. That assumption was wrong, I openly admit that, and I think I've come to understand it. However, the point above still stands, no matter her motivation for entering the A, she was still "porn star ready" with him, the "gift" that I care about most in our M. So yeah, her telling me, "how about some Skittles" is a slap in the face, just like it would be to a BS who loves diamonds, WS gave diamonds like crazy to the AP, can afford all the diamonds in the world, and then open the box on Valentines day to find a Nestle bar and a secret decoder ring. Nope, that's not going to fly, you're welcome to be a cheap ass with someone else, but not with me anymore because, and this if fundamental, I've seen how you show love to people you really want (the AP). And it's not Skittles, it's diamonds (or anal sex, or BJ's, or whatever else sexual act is hanging up the BS).

You are still relatively early in this process. It takes years to accept all of it. So, I get that this is still on your mind. I hope that one day you will be able to move past it whether you R or not.

Exactly. So true.

Our feelings about things and our perspective changes over time. I could give a million examples of the different feelings and attitudes I have had in regards to my H, marriage, affairs, etc. It's a journey.

We have all been victimized, but none of us are victims. We have power. We have autonomy. We have choices. If you can't stand where you are at, make different choices. Empower yourself. It's the only way out.

To make your analogy work for me, you had to imagine that your husband is really rich. Like, never spend it all rich. And shiny things are really important to you.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if her husband was really rich, wouldn't that make her really rich?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if her husband was really rich, wouldn't that make her really rich?

Well, depending on the nature of their marriage, in most cases, yes, it would. So, if we need to make it equivalent, it would have to be something like "husband has a 9 figure trust fund" (that's held outside the marriage). Because marriage gives explicit access to the earned wealth of the other person but implicit and "revocable" access to sex from the other person the analogy does not entirely hold. If your H is rich and he doesn't want to buy you shiny things, you can buy them yourself. Or you can D and go buy and entire car load of shiny things. It's not the same as sex (nothing is in a M) because there are lots of ways to get that particular need satisfied. Shoot, a lot of rich people "outsource" that LL to others, they get personal shoppers to go pick things out for their H/W and "fill" that particular need for love by using stand ins (which is the functional equivalent to allowing a mistress or prostitute for your partner who gets love through sex). But if receiving gifts is important to you, then I'm pretty sure that "go buy them yourself" is about as helpful as "you have a hand, you can masturbate" for making the other partner feel appreciated in their love language (read: not helpful).

[This message edited by Rideitout at 5:49 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)]

Yes, socks! But, they were "special" socks.

I wasn't thinking of a family that is poor. I was thinking of a family that could buy shiny, expensive things, but it wasn't really a good idea, like my family. It's sexist because the assumption is that all women want shiny, expensive things. My fCH is a gift giver. That's his love language. I'm not much of a gift receiver. That's not my love language. I fuss at him when he buys me things. Crazy, right?

So, back to your analogy, the reason why he won't buy me things doesn't really matter. It's the fact that he won't. I still only have those same 3 choices.

Maybe it's the words you so disparage that the BP wants. The CP said all kinds of beautiful things to the AP. " You're beautiful." "I love you." "You are a phenomenal lover." But, the CP refuses to say those things to the BP, and words of affirmation are the BP's love language, but the CP shows his love in other ways. Still the same choices. Accept the expressions of love that are given. D because it's not what you need. Stay and continue to bemoan it all.

My fCH told the OW that she was beautiful. He hasn't said that to me in years, not even when I've been all dolled up for the USMC birthday ball. (And, I'm pretty damn attractive.) If I'm in a funk and say that I'm ugly, he disagrees, but not very emphatically and he never says, No. You're beautiful!" He usually just says something along the lines of, "You aren't ugly." Gee, thanks.

But, here's the thing, I don't want my fCH to say that to me only because I asked him to. I want him to say it because he feels it. I want him to just be looking at me adoringly the way I look at my kids and say, "Wow! You are really beautiful!"

Sometimes, I get the sense that BHs think the A sex is so much more hurtful to them than anything else about the A could be to the BW. That's just not true. Even though it wasn't real, the love declarations to the OW are just as hurtful to the BWs psyche.

I hope my comment earlier about hoping you guys can overcome this with time wasn't condescending.