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EHB,

Buddy, I just have to say, as an outsider, I would say the odds are very good that your wife is still in full blown contact with this POS. This emails are pretty damning. I really hope you dont prolong your agony. If I was a betting man I would go all in that she is either with him or talking to him throughout her trip. From your posts she doesn’t seem to be very interested in the well being of both you and the kids and that is a dismal position to be in.

As others have said I would serve her ASAP to see if she gets her head out of her ass.

Good luck

Elvis,

Your posts speak of a calm and considered man, who will take the time to read and absorb.

That will serve you well in this journey out of infidelity.

the hopium addiction was short lived and I find I don't have the taste for it.

It is good news that you did not imbibe in the Hopium for too long. This tends to put BS into their own fogs.

let go of any expectation I have of her working to win me back. I want to be able to think only of myself and my children. I don't want to worry about how my WW will feel if I act one way or another.

Another very positive attitude here.

I want get a Samuel L Jackson wallet (Jules from Pulp Fiction) and be a badass motherfucker and kickass fatherfigure.

Yeah, Jules was a cool mutha.

Elvis

I’m not going to tell you to R or D. That’s entirely your call. And each of us responding knows what we would do in your circumstances and her behavior after

But the two things I think you should consider are

(1) if she hasn’t seen or spoken to her brother for four years and they were not close her grieving is not you major concern and she is quite probably going to use that to not give you what you need . And if you don’t do what she thinks you should she might possibly use that as an excuse when you catch her again

(2) the lack of communication from OM when he ignored the NC request until you changed the password would indicate she surely told him that .

Someone else already told you you need her to take another polygraph test and you only need one question answered .

And that is has she had any contact with him since 9/13 poly on any electronic device . A second question could be has she seen him in person

The answers to those in my opinion are necessary before you make any decision about anything . And when she gets back I would tell her you don’t believe a fucking word she’s telling you and brother or no brother what she did to you better move up the totem pole like yesterday

Mine talked to his AP for years after. They will push to the boundary with no remorse if you do not make it clear. I am so sorry, I tried the soft approach and it does not work. Selfish cheaters will keep it up and you must live in a painful limbo as they indulge. She has not learned anything yet and you will care less and less as time goes by until the love is gone.

Is it possible to get some nanny cams and place them in rooms where your WW might talk to AP while your gone? If she is still in contact, then continuing discussions with her are useless.

Placing VARs around and in her car may be useful also. You have a gift of time with her away to place these things in good hiding placing while she is away.

Also, do you have access to her phone accts via an old phone or a tablet? You can see in her app store if she has downloaded any social media apps to help take her A underground.

Please tell the OBS about the man she’s married to.

You said your wife should be the one telling her. Your wife won’t do that. YOU HAVE TO DO IT.

I agree with this, but even more, I think it would be more painful for OBS to hear it from the woman who attacked her marriage than from another injured party.

Elvis - How did the ARC conversation go?

We all are wondering about your outcomes from that last session.

Also, we are glad you are hard 180. Be sure you contact the kids, but maybe tell her you aren't interested in talking when she tries to engage you.

If she asks if you love her, simply state, "I love the woman I married who loves me and fights for me to feel loved. I haven't seen her in a while."

If she tries to start a phone fight, just hang up. Lots of WS feel they deserve you helping them step down from their AP with drawl. The problem is, they need to do that themselves, so they can really pull away. If you build the boundaries, all she has to do is go back to justifying you as the villain like she did during the affair.

It will feel a little icy but it lays out that you don't feel she is giving you the love you deserve. You know she isn't.

Good luck on the next 2 weeks.

BTW - If she starts arguing about you bringing up the A. I got that too and used, "You know I am pissed off and sad about what YOU did to me. Why wouldn't I talk about it? (Pause) It effected me to my core. If you don't want to even put in the effort to talk about it, I guess I know you don't want to help me deal with this pain. The person I loved inflicted this on me." Then walk away and go grey rock. Lock in that you are Jules. He doesn't take his eyes off the gun pointed at him, he just goes ice cold. Even in those dork clothes he isn't afraid.

Please tell the OBS about the man she’s married to.

You said your wife should be the one telling her. Your wife won’t do that. YOU HAVE TO DO IT.

My WW flew out this morning, I will contact OBS today.

I agree with this, but even more, I think it would be more painful for OBS to hear it from the woman who attacked her marriage than from another injured party. I agree with this, but even more, I think it would be more painful for OBS to hear it from the woman who attacked her marriage than from another injured party.

As much as I want my wife to do it for the reason NuckingFuts (lol) mentioned, it would likely take weeks/months for my wife to do it.  And I can even tell the OBS now and have my wife do it again later since I'm not going to tell her I contacted OBS.

Now, how much do I disclose to OBS?  Just the facts or do I get into details (email messages, etc.)

Another reason not to mention disclosure to your WW is that if she does find out about it, you'll know she's been in contact with the AP.

Do make sure you're not in an Alienation of Affections state. The last thing you need is to have your wife sued while she's still financially tied to you. In terms of what to tell, just start with the basics. Some BS's need to know everything and some don't want the details. Beware of revenge porn laws and don't disclose pornographic photos. You don't want to get into trouble with the law. Don't allow yourself to be drawn in to drama between the AP and his BW. You've got drama enough at home.

All you're doing is letting her know the facts and then getting out. This puts two sets of eyes on the cheaters and makes it more difficult for them to restart, but it's NOT your responsibility to fix anything in the OBS's life for her. If anything further develops, let her know she's free to contact you, but also let her know that you're providing her a courtesy, that you're handling your business at home and would prefer that she refrain from contact with your wife. This way, you will know that the only way your WW can find out about the exposure is through the AP.

Thanks Chamomile. I'm in Colorado so no chance getting sued by the Alienations of Affections. But I did just see that a jury awarded $750K to a BS in North Carolina with this as the defense.

I left OBS a voicemail, told her I had information about her husband and my wife that I thought she should know about immediately. She called me back but hung up quickly before the phone rang. I'm sure there's no good time to get a voicemail like the one I left her so she's either waiting for a better time to call me back, is too afraid to call me or is in contact with her husband (AP) to ask WTF is going on. I hope she calls me before calling AP.

If I get a chance to talk to OBS, I'll finally find out if she and AP are actually getting a divorce or not. AP told my WW that they were separated and their divorce would be final in mid August. But from their emails, AP would mention OBS stopping by their house unannounced many times - interrupting the calls/meet-ups of my WW and AP. I have no idea if they're actually divorced now, were ever separated at all or if they've been married the whole time with no intention of splitting.

I hear you on the "just the facts" to the OBS. I appreciate the advice of limiting contact and avoiding drama.

Another reason not to mention disclosure to your WW is that if she does find out about it, you'll know she's been in contact with the AP.

That's the motivation with my timing of contacting her with my WW flying out today. My WW's behavior will tell me everything I need to know.

Damn MickeyBill, that is even worse considering all the traumatic and awful things the collective SI community has been through. I mean, I knew it was bad. Especially when I had packed the kids/gear up in the van that Saturday morning

Every cheating spouse does pretty much the same thing. They flirt, they lie, they kiss and have thrills hiding their secret life, they have sex. Nothing very original or out of the ordinary.

The thing that makes this so awful is her plan, her desire for her birthday was to get rid of her family so she can fuck her BF without worries. Well Happy Birthday to her!

I figure you and your kids at least gave her cards saying something like HBD to the best mom! Just sad...

Reminds me of another cheating wife on SI who after her morning get ready for work (shower, make up, hair nice), looking her best would shoot a selfie for her BF. The BF saw her before her BS in the am. I thought that was pretty awfu too...

Priorities change.

l

If she asks if you love her, simply state, "I love the woman I married who loves me and fights for me to feel loved. I haven't seen her in a while."

This is great, thanks DoinBettr.  I will use this.

Elvis - How did the ARC conversation go?

We all are wondering about your outcomes from that last session.

Thanks for asking.  The Affair Recovery Counseling (ARC) was by far the worst session we've had yet.

When my WW spent 6 days out of town last week after learning her brother was killed, we only talked about her A one time, and it ended horribly with me getting angry, her shutting down and telling me "I was going to push her away".  I did not handle things well, we were not, as Jules would have asked us to be, like two little Fonzies.

When she returned earlier this week, I told her we'd take a break for the 3 days she was in town and not talk about the A, out of respect for her grieving for her brother.  I wanted to try and support her after her brother died but my emotions were all over the place.  She spent the first day "in a dark place" that she said she wanted to be in.  Gathering photographs, working on his obituary, coordinating pallbearers for his funeral.  I turned into an emotional shell, incapable of wanting to give her compassion, comfort or love.  I spent the first 2 days bottling up the anger/sadness/fear/hate and posted on SI for the first time as an outlet.  I implemented an admittedly weak version of the 180, which seemed to only fuel my disillusion of everything.  I was cold, distant and unattached.  She felt it, asked me what was going on and I continued to repress my feelings trying not to bring up the A.  Told her I was doing my best to be there for her as she grieved for her brother but that it was very difficult for me.

While driving the time of our ARC I mentioned that we would likely discuss more than her brother's death during our session.  My WW spent the first 20 minutes of the session talking about her brother, the ARC drew parallels between WW's questions about her brother's death (why didn't the driver stop, was her brother on drugs at the time, did he kill himself or was this an accident, etc.) and my questions to her about her A.  The ARC drew parallels between WW's emotional pain of dealing with a tragic, traumatic event with my pain dealing with a tragic, traumatic event.  The ARC said this could be an opportunity for my WW to open up to me and be vulnerable and possibly lead to feeling remorse for her A - that it didn't matter where her pain came from but that the opening to her feeling emotions was an opportunity to feel emotions of her A and my pain.

I sat there stewing in anger the whole time.  I thought I was talking in a calm, cool voice but both ARC and WW said that they could tell how angry I was.  ARC said I had every right to be angry with her brother for hijacking my A recovery, that I had every right to be angry with everything and that this was a terrible situation made worse by my WW's focus of grief now being off of her A and shifted to her brother/family grief.  That I should simply tell my WW something along the lines of "I am so sorry for your loss and the tragic end to your brother's life that you have to deal with, but it makes me so mad that it's getting in the way of you dealing with your A and all the pain you've caused me".  Easier said than done.

Apparently my soft, calm voice was transparent at concealing my anger and rage.  I said I didn't feel like I could bring up the A right now out of respect for my WW's grieving for her brother. I spoke but the ARC and my WW called me out for speaking in a condescending voice that was hurtful to the discussion.  At the moment I disagreed and became angrier, felt ganged up on and wronged.  In hindsight I know I was angry but didn't think my voice was condescending.  I was so fired up I'm probably not being objective.  But the ARC came at me strong saying that "Its okay for you to be angry, but if you continue to talk to WW like this it's going to shut her down completely.  What do you want out of this?  Do you want to work through healing from her A or do you want to end things right now?  Because if you just want to end things you can just say so and we can be done here."  I stated that I was okay with whichever way this wave breaks, and that she has work to do to help me heal from her A and has to be open to talking with me about it or else I slip into an angry rage like the one I'm in now.

At this point my WW loses her composure and screams "Will you let me bury my brother first?!?!  My brother was killed 8 days ago and you can't see that I can't deal with anything else right now!".  I look at the ARC and say, "See, this is why I can't talk to her about the A."  I state to the ARC that WW needs a wake-up call to understand the stakes involved here.  I ask WW directly if she understands that our marriage and our children's future is at stake here?  She responds, "Honestly, none of that is even on my mind right now.  I don't care."  I compose myself and look directly at her, tell her I need to feel some sort of remorse from her about the A right now, soon, and if I don't then I'm happy to pursue divorce/dissolution.  She is indifferent.

The ARC again raises his voice at me again and tells me that I need to be nice to WW if I want her to come out of her shell and deal with her A.  ARC tells WW that she needs to open up and talk to me about the A.  Those are our jobs.  We need to slow down immediately and I need to be nice to A so she can open up.  Our time was past and we walk out to leave.  The ARC pulls me aside, apologizes for coming off so strong to me.  I tell him I can take it, that I'm not even worried about that.  But that he's telling me the wrong things.  As I walk away he says, "ok, let's talk about that next time."

I have no intention of booking a next time with him.  Be nice to my WW.  That was literally his advice.

On one hand, it's the ONLY place where my WW opens up about her feelings with me.  We've also gone nearly a dozen times so there is history/rapport/trust with ARC and my wife.  I don't want to lose the only venue where she opens up.  And his mention of opportunity of her grief for her brother eventually opening her up to discuss grief of her A seems like a decent strategy.

But she's hardly talked about the A with me in 10 days, is gone for another 4 days, and then I'll be on work trip for 3 days after that.  By the time we're both back from our trips it will have been 17 days since her brother was killed and I've already been told to expect her to grieve his death for an indeterminate amount of time.

I have no idea if we should never go back to ARC, if we should go to bi-weekly meetings with him and concentrate on weekly IC for both of us or maintain status quo.  All I know is that the advice I've gotten "Be nice to A and she'll open up to you" feels like garbage, especially since I just started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and I feel like I'm in the place I am now due to being too nice.

"...I feel like I'm in the place I am now due to being too nice."

I agree 100% with this statement. It's not your fault she decided to have an affair and it's not your fault that the consequences of her choices are 'interfering' with her 'feelings' and healing. This is all her fault. She made her choices and didn't consider or care about the potential results and that's too bad for her. You are in pain too and if she can't pull her head out of her rear enough to help you, regardless of what's going on, then you should pull the trigger on divorcing her. Don't tell her and don't waiver. Just move forward toward your own healing because I suspect that she doesn't give a crap about your pain and she is likely never going to be there for you. It sounds like she left the building a long time ago and I'd be very surprised if she comes back. Stay angry and focus on yourself. You are the prize in this situation. You are more important than anyone else in this relationship. Take care of you and determine to free yourself from those who won't consider the value that you bring to the table.

Something that worked for me was the “Fishbowl” method, or as we called it, “Fishbowl Night.”

I had many questions and it was difficult to figure out how to ask them. Plus, I didn’t want my WW to get overloaded with being peppered day and night with questions, or I am sure she would have shut down. So I took Kevin Jackson’s suggestion and wrote (typed) my questions down. I printed them off, cut them into strips, folded them up, and placed them in a bowl. I bought a plastic one with a lid to store everything between sessions. I bought a kitchen timer (digital) and set it for 20 minutes.

My wife would pick out a question and read it to herself. If she didn’t want to answer it right then, she folded it up and put it back into the bowl. She chose questions until she found one she was willing to answer. We started the timer at that point. She read the question aloud and answered it. We talked about what she said until I was fully satisfied with the answer, at least for “now”. That question was set aside and we continued the process until the 20 minutes expired. We put everything away and then got out Uno and played for a while.

Some rules: You have the right to add and/or remove any question at any time. You have the right to re-visit any question at any time. Eventually, all questions have to be answered. You may not bring up any questions until the next session. If you both agree, you can adjust the time frame up or down. If you have less than 2 minutes to talk, a new question may not be taken out of the bowl, unless you both agree to continue.

What this will do for your wife is give her some breathing room to grieve (in your case) and not worry about any questions for a while. She knows there is an appointed time to talk and she can mentally prepare for that time. This is just a suggestion, but it worked well for me. I hope as well for you, if you decide to try it.

Cruel to be kind:

You wife cheated, and enjoyed it. People don’t go back for seconds if they get food poisoning.

Her grief excuse is a crock of shit. When my mother died I had very young children. I stayed nauseated, couldn’t sleep, was out of my mind with grief but I had to get up every day and look after my family.

You need to NEVER go back to a person who poohpoohs your pain. He isn’t much of a therapist if he doesn’t recognize the damage she has done to you.

You are waaaay too nice about all this.

Your ARC is choreographing the "pick me dance", whereby, you (the betrayed party) prove your worth and your attractiveness to an overly entitled mate. And you know what?.. the pick me dance never works. Yes, you can "attract" your WS back into the marriage. That's why MC's utilize this tactic. But no... you won't be getting a worthwhile mate. You'll be getting an overly entitled one, one who believes that she is your greatest priority and who doesn't reciprocate that ideal. She'll have learned nothing and changed nothing.

If you're not ready to file for D (and chances are you've still got to make a lot of logistical changes in order to utilize that option), I'd probably move to a fairly stringent 180. I'd basically treat her like a coworker I didn't get on with all that well, polite but aloof. I don't think I'd bother going back to MC. The last thing you need right now is an inept therapist validating your WW's choice to not engage. Your time and money are better spent in trauma therapy with your own IC. If your WW doesn't want to talk about her deceit and betrayal, fine. She doesn't get to talk to you at all. Kids and finances. That's it. Short, to the point, and then you go find something else which deserves your attention. She doesn't. As long as she's recalcitrant, she doesn't deserve your attention.

I think the thing so many WS's miss is that talking is opportunity. Her failure to engage tells you clearly that she doesn't want that opportunity. The WS needs to be chasing YOU, not the other way around. She needs to prove to you that she's worth your time and trouble, but she's not even willing to get in the game at this point. And yeah... grief. But she hasn't spoken to that brother for four years, and you can bet your ass that she DOES understand that adultery is wrong. She's stalling. She's hoping you'll "get over it". She's got a big head from all this attention, the belle of the ball as it were, and she can't imagine that you won't be waiting around hat in hand. In her world, she is central.

Now, I'll be honest with you. I'd go ahead and file and I would be done at this point. But that's me, not you. For your part, you've got a job which requires travel and you're probably going to have to make some life changes in order to accommodate co-parenting. So, maybe just disengage and go take care of those things you need to do in order to be ready for D. If she pulls her head out of her ass, great. If she doesn't, your exit plan is formulated and right there in your back pocket.

ETA: Remember that you're not required to tell her what's on your mind, what you're planning, how you feel, nothing. We make ourselves vulnerable with people we trust not to hurt us. We share with people who are likewise open. These things are GIFTS. She's not deserving unless/until she's honest and engaged.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 5:30 PM, October 4th (Friday)]

I would suggest that your wife see an IC. I wouldn't go back to the "you need to be nice to your wife or she wont open up" bullshit. Reading that made my blood boil.

I felt ganged up on in therapy too. I kept my cool, but took a few sessions off (my WW still went) until I felt comfortable coming back.

I'm sure your WW and her family need to grieve. I can deal with more than one serious issue at a time. Ask your wife if she ever had to "manage" the AP and you at the same time, I'm guessing yes, multiple times.

It sounds like she is just rug sweeping this and hoping to rely on her grief for her brother as long as she can.

Again, if helping you and healing the relationship is important, she would make an effort. God, it probably wouldn't take much effort to have short discussions about the A.

I always say talk is cheap, and actions speak louder than words. In your wife's case, she isn't even using cheap words to try to help you.

Not knowing anything about her brother or the lack of contact with the family, but I have seen situations where the estranged family is so guilt ridden because they had not talked in 5 or 10 years to the brother/son, and miss so many opportunities to connect so she may have that.

OTOH another friend was sad but relieved that he was "at peace" and they didn't have to worry about more calls in the middle of the night.

So you WW may be deflecting the A talk to grieve the death...maybe it is convenient or maybe it's real...

I’m sorry you’re here but as you’ve been reading you’re in good company.

Gently, it’s very unlikely your WW and the AP are not in communication. For sure they are using other ways to stay in touch. Perhaps a VAR (voice activated recorder) will tell the tale if they’re actually talking as opposed to only using apps and such.

Your WW is deep in the fog and since there have been no real consequences I don’t see how anything is going to change in 3 or 6 months. Right now things are going pretty darn well for her, under the circumstances. I would file for D to get things onto the right track and see where it takes you. The path to R is likewise through filing, though from what you’ve described your WW does not seem like a good candidate for R. She doesn’t seem to care all that much how this has affected you. Has she?

So, you are a big imposing powerful guy who apparently is comfortable with expressing anger and pain. That is good. I am a bad-ass attorney who can argue anyone into a corner on a coin-drop. Also a good thing. But I have learned in my career (personal life too) that “you cannot alienate your audience” if you really want to persuade someone of something and really press your point home. Your ARC has terrible communication skills apparently, but I would guess that this is the point he was trying to make.

If your spouse, hearing what you have to say, is gearing up in fight or flight mode and automatically preparing a defensive reply, you are not going to get through. This does not mean that you have to “be nice” or suppress anger, but you do have to find ways to tell her what is going on with you that do not scare her and make her shut her ears. The best way I know to do this initially is with “I statements.” You can google that. It is a first step toward true vulnerability, which is what truly will get through to her if anything can.

Maybe you need a one-on-one with the ARC to see if he has the insight to really help here without endorsing her fantasy of “compartmentalizations” and FOO issues. If she trust him, and IF he can stop feeding her rig-sweeping compulsion, maybe he can actually help. Worth a try....