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Thanks, landclark. I haven't been around much. Having a really hard time with COVID. I've lost some people I care about and it's really a horrible time to be poly because of risk. When I'm struggling, I have limited energy to support others, unfortunately.

No one should feel like they have to justify their relationship to anyone, as long as it's mutually consensual. I'm sorry you had this additional stress during an already stressful time. We're all doing the best we can, and the last thing anyone needs is to be told that they're doing it wrong because their choices are different. Relationships should be constructed to suit the people who are in them.

PSTI, I am so sorry for your loss. :( I am sure the extra layer of concern from being in a poly relationship is something most people don’t consider. This is truly all such a mess.

I do appreciate you taking the time to post, and for understanding. I hope the days ahead are much brighter for you.

arguing in front of your kids is obviously toxic

I disagree. Healthy arguing in front of the kids is healthy. It shows kids that even married people disagree and it's ok. It helps burst that fantasy bubble that marriage means happily ever after. IMO, kids need to see the real ups and downs, ebbs and flows of a LTR, not a whitewashed version that makes everyone look happy all the time. That is not healthy at all!

It depends on what you mean by arguing. Part of the problems my H has is that he perceives any disagreement as a fight, an attack. He can't handle a discussion about differing opinions because he takes it personally, gets defensive, and goes on the attack, himself.

I, otoh, am very comfortable with disagreement and discussion/arguing, even when it gets heated. My family has always been like that. We discuss deep, important things. We disagree. Sometimes our voices get loud and we get very animated. Even if we get frustrated and angry at the other person, we still love each other in the end. We still accept the other person with all their messed up notions. 😉

Because of that, I wasn't too concerned when things weren't great in my M. Rather than taking it personally, I sought help for our problems through counseling. My H took everything personally, got butthurt and resentful, and found himself a girlfriend to make himself feel better because he assumed we were doomed. Now, that is toxic!

LC, lol on having the H tied up in the basement. I can't stand the rebuke, "That's so unfair to your CP!" First, he's a cheater. He deserves some unfairness. Asshat owes me. He thought he was being used before? Now, he's going to know what that's really like.

Second, I'm not lying to him. I've told him how I feel. He says he understands and accepts it. He, like your H, hopes that I will get that loving feeling back. I'm not completely closed to it. As a matter of fact, just the opposite. I would welcome it. It sure would be nice to have that loving feeling toward my H again. I just don't think it's likely after all this time.

Healthy arguing in front of the kids is healthy. It shows kids that even married people disagree and it's ok. It helps burst that fantasy bubble that marriage means happily ever after. IMO, kids need to see the real ups and downs, ebbs and flows of a LTR, not a whitewashed version that makes everyone look happy all the time. That is not healthy at all!

100% this. I think one of the biggest disservices that parents do to their children is not showing them that everyone argues and healthy ways to handle disagreements. Then they figure if their relationships aren't idyllic paradises, that something is wrong.

If you are arguing in ways you don't want your children to see, with of course allowances for private topics, I respectfully suggest that more energy should be put into examining the ways you handle conflict resolution with your spouse because there are likely some very unhealthy patterns there.

Kids need to see the full emotional range from us so they learn how to handle their own feelings.

I disagree. Healthy arguing in front of the kids is healthy. It shows kids that even married people disagree and it's ok. It helps burst that fantasy bubble that marriage means happily ever after. IMO, kids need to see the real ups and downs, ebbs and flows of a LTR, not a whitewashed version that makes everyone look happy all the time. That is not healthy at all!

Agreed. If you're throwing chairs, beating each other, etc., then I would say that is probably toxic. Normal arguing, even heated, or disagreeing is definitely not.

I also grew up in a family that didn't avoid conflict. We tackled it head on, and got it out of the way. We didn't hold back. Sure, we were childish about it at times, but we got through it. My WH had the opposite upbringing. Rugsweep everything. Maintain a proper appearance at all times. Very much the Mama's Broken Heart "Don't matter how you feel, it only matters how you look" or "bite your lip just to save a little face". Since he is a repeat cheater, we can see how well that worked out. He struggles to speak up and state his needs. It's not healthy at all, but he is working on it.

So yeah, for me the fact there's some arguing in front of our son isn't enough of a reason to for me to say I should D. I don't think we're modeling toxic behavior for him at all. Aside from the cheating, my WH and I still have normal relationship ups and downs like anybody else would have.

I disagree. Healthy arguing in front of the kids is healthy. It shows kids that even married people disagree and it's ok. It helps burst that fantasy bubble that marriage means happily ever after. IMO, kids need to see the real ups and downs, ebbs and flows of a LTR, not a whitewashed version that makes everyone look happy all the time. That is not healthy at all!

I stand by exactly what I said: arguing is toxic. Disagreeing is not. In my experience, lots of couples--myself included, but my H is much worse--give themselves too much credit on this front. "We're not arguing, we're showing how to disagree." Meanwhile they are loud, use an ugly tone, give the silent treatment, slam things, stomp off, whatever. It will be up to the kids to determine how healthy their parents were as they grew up. Only their opinion matters on this subject, so I use my children as a barometer. If they are uncomfortable, I'm doing it wrong. We talk about it as a family.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:28 PM, June 16th (Tuesday)]

This is another one I had something longer typed and then it all boiled down to one thing - I needed to be able to look at myself in the mirror and know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I did the right thing.

Yes, history, love, kids, etc. all played their own role in that - but for all that and more - I needed to be able to look at myself and say I did everything I could.

PS - all the while knowing that I could change my mind. That gave me peace.

My kids are uncomfortable with lots of things that I know are good for them emotionally.

They are uncomfortable talking about boundaries....we do it.

They are uncomfortable with us talking about having another baby...we do it.

They are uncomfortable talking about race and racism....we do it.

My oldest was very uncomfortable with talking about consent, sex, etc....but we for damn sure did it.

Arguing happens..raised voices, angry words etc. And we model how to apologise, do better, learn, etc

My husband had no coping skills because life was hidden from him. He never saw good coping strategies in action.

I did. So an argument wasn't the end of the world for me. It didn't mean he didn't love me. It meant he was angry and we needed to reexamine a situation. To him our arguments meant I didnt care about him. So he went searching for someone to validate him.

I am imperfect. I tell my kids all the time I have more wisdom than you but it doesn't mean I have ALL the wisdom. I will mess up. Dad will mess up and we will learn together

My initial reasons were to stay for my kids and only my kids.. That reason didnt really change for at least 6 months when my WW finally realised that i was really close to D.. She then upped her game somewhat.. Is doing better but by no means are we past things.. But heading hopefully in that direction

My kids are uncomfortable with lots of things that I know are good for them emotionally.

Of course.

Arguing isn't one of them.

Ask any IC.

Eta: This article sums up what all the others say. Chicago Tribune. April 10, 2019

Relationship conflict is inevitable. Even couples who have the happiest, healthiest relationships disagree and argue. But there’s big difference between productively and calmly discussing an issue versus engaging in an angry, hostile shouting match. What’s even worse is when heated battles occur in front of the kids.

Lisa Blumberg is a North Shore-based licensed clinical social worker, who works with individuals and couples, and offers parent guidance. Blumberg said it’s perfectly acceptable to disagree in front of the kids. In fact, if the conversation remains calm and respectful, kids might not even realize you are in a disagreement. But if and when that conversation starts to escalate and become emotional, that’s when it’s wise to take a pause and save it for a later time, or take the fight elsewhere.

If you are able to disagree calmly so that the kids don't even realize you are in a disagreement, many kudos to you. It is a goal for me, but I fail many times.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:36 PM, June 16th (Tuesday)]

I feel like this is getting off track again. If we want to discuss whether or not arguing is good or bad for kids, I think it should be a separate thread.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

My initial reasons were to stay for my kids and only my kids.. That reason didnt really change for at least 6 months when my WW finally realised that i was really close to D.. She then upped her game somewhat.. Is doing better but by no means are we past things.. But heading hopefully in that direction

SCJ, this makes total sense. Our initial reasons may not end up being the same reasons next week, next year, etc. It can change and a lot of does depend on what the W decides to do with the opportunity we've given them. We're not locked in by any means.

PS - all the while knowing that I could change my mind. That gave me peace.

Yes, love this!

Your right landclark.

Marriage and child-rearing are a series of personal choices.

Why someone stays in a marriage "without" romantic is a very personal choice where alot of things are considered.

The judgement and questioning is unnecessary. If someone can't support the choice of another...then respectfully bow out. And above all..unless your asked...Keep Your Opinions and judgement to yourself

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 7:54 PM, June 16th (Tuesday)]

After 32 years of history, the good bad and ugly it comes down to I am just not ready to stop loving him even though he doesn't deserve it and I deserve much better. Other things come into play though, my age, finances, our son who is an adult but... the bottom line is this is where I belong for some reason.. I have love left to give still.

The judgement and questioning is unnecessary. If someone can't support the choice of another...then respectfully bow out. And above all..unless your asked...Keep Your Opinions and judgement to yourself

Amen, sister! I was going to say more about healthy arguing vs. toxic arguing, but I won't.

It is true that reasons can change. Initially, I stayed because I felt I had nowhere to go. I didn't have a job. I didn't have any of my own money. My kids were homeschooled. Even if i put them in school so I could go back to work, it would still take time to get everything in order. So, I stayed. I made myself a 5 year plan. I would start working on getting things in order to leave and reasses in 5 years. If things happened sooner than that, great!

When the anger set in, I stayed because I wasn't going to let him off easy. He owed me! I wasn't going to let him walk off into the sunset and live a bachelor's life while I had to work my ass off to take care of 3 kids. I think he would be an involved father as much as he could be if we divorced. It wouldn't be equal and it wouldn't be enough. Nope, not gonna happen! He was going to have to continue to work his ass off to support me while I did whatever I wanted. That lasted for at least a year, maybe 2.

At about the 4 year mark, I decided my H had put in enough work and was still working, so I considered us reconciled. Almost exactly a year later, I decided I was done. Now, I stay because we are comfortable. Things can,and may, change at anytime. I may decide to walk out the door today. I may decide i can be in love with my H again.