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But I see it as him choosing an honorable profession- one that he could be proud of and could be accepted. He chose "good" where his profession was concerned. His profession defined him as a good man, although he truly was not.

Doesn't this statement validate the fact that a person is not and should not be "defined" by their profession? Because professions are simply what people do...true character and who people truly ARE is revealed when no one is around and looking.

Look, there are good and bad people up and down the spectrum. The point is, SM is not comfortable having a stripper in her home because of what she feels they represent. She has a right have whomever she pleases in her home. I also think she acknowledges that she's being judgmental which is again within her right.

It still does not make all strippers bad, amoral people...imo.

To each their own....but *I*, personally, want nothing to do with it. And I don't want to associate with anyone that does. And I will *go to the mat* to keep my young, impressionable, teenage boys away from believing that *objectifying* females is okay behavior in any way, shape, or form.

^^^This100 times over.

(From the mom who knows she successfully brought up two honorable young men)

ETA:

"Because professions are simply what people do"

I must again respectfully disagree. In many cases a person profession is not simply what a person does...it is who they are... A Sister of Charity is not simply a profession, it also defines who that person is: giving, generous, spiritual. A firefighter/police officer willing to risk their life for others...yes, that is part of their character. A stripper willing to remove their clothing for $1.00 in their g-string while a crowd hoots and hollers...ummm, I will leave it at that.

[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 11:31 AM, October 11th (Thursday)]

NEH, I got your message, I just found the post funny.

As far as selling sexuality goes. How about models for clothing? The endless supply of girls at the car shows? Almost every young actress on the planet? You better believe they are pushing sexuality on every talent show on TV that has a following down in F&G. What about all of those love scenes in movies and TV, crosses far more serious boundaries than what a lot of strippers do.

Objectification:

What about graphic artists who end up pornifying women in ads with photoshop in order to pay the bills? How about damn near everyone on the business side of respectable show business.

What about half of the flirty waitresses out there who make most of their money from tips?

What does a persons choice of job say about their morals?

I had a friend who liked cars, and got a job as a Chrysler salesman. He ended up hating it, because he had to sell a lot of overpriced lemons and hide a lot of truth to pay his bills.

I have had to make some truly regretable decisions while running a business, things that were not what I wanted to do, but it was necessary.

I have met some strippers that really just wanted to be "legitimate" dancers, but developed the wrong body type (too stereotyically female), and others who were so delusional they thought of themselves as courtesans. I met one young girl on her first night, who was just desperate to pay her rent. I told her she would always be seen as a stripper or former stripper, and if she was going to do something that changed her whole life just for money, to make sure she got enough money to change her whole life. The big attraction for her was that she could start work and get money that night to avoid being evicted.

All we can really tell about their morals is that they have a diminished sense of modesty. Some start out that way, some sacrifice it to pay the bills.

I don't advocate pre judging and discarding anyone based on limited information, but I also don't think anyone should feel compelled to make themselves uncomfortable to associate with anyone.

You also need to remember that this stripper isn't likely the only attractive woman your husband is going to run into. You can't stop your husband from seeing them

True. Her attractiveness really isn't my concern as apparently it is no concern of FWH's. After I finally saw a picture of OW I really was in a panic. I told FWH "Oh no, I am in big trouble here because apparently you'll f**k anything!" No, it is more the loose boundaries and the manipulation of men that strippers are pros at that has me concerned. For both FWH and DS26, and hey, DS16, too. And maybe SIL, also.

To answer your question, IRN2006, my FWH does an incredible job on comforting me when I trigger. He has really stepped up to the plate and I am quite frankly surprised many times at how empathic he has become.

I feel compelled to clarify that prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas.

It isn't Rebreather? I think in the city proper it isn't, but on the outskirts there is the Moonlite Bunny Ranch and that is a legal brothel. Can you explain?

Many of you are implying that I think stripper = whore. I stated many times I don't think that. What I do know is that strippers rub all over men, dry humping as someone said. They don't care if they are married or not. That is morally wrong on both of their behalves, MM and stripper. Most strip clubs these days aren't strictly the women on stage "dancing". They don't make enough money that way.

DD has a friend that has been a stripper - does that count?

neh, sorry, no that doesn't count.

the point is you just turned dating this girl into a cause.

DCK, I don't feel I did. It isn't like he is reading this thread. I simply told him I don't want a stripper in my home. If he chooses to see less of us, I will be really sad. That doesn't mean I will compromise what I feel is the right thing for my home.

triskele ~ YES! YES! YES! Thank you very much for putting into words what I clumsily was trying to.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:40 AM, October 11th (Thursday)]

What about graphic artists who end up pornifying women in ads with photoshop in order to pay the bills?

Or those damn video game people.

Sorry, carry on with serious topic.

@rhr

As you edited to add: "in many cases"... I will also then say, "many professions" because if I take sort of the opposite end of your examples, and use a garbage collector, janitor, bus driver, etc. Are they only defined by their professions? Can they not also brave, giving, spiritual?

Clearly we're entitled to our opinions and biases, but because I don't like a particular job, does not mean that I can paint everyone who does it with the same broad stroke.

OK..Seriously? StillGoing???

does not mean that I can paint everyone who does it with the same broad stroke.

I absolutely believe that a huge majority of strippers do lap dances (touch body parts, gyrate, dry hump or whatever, on men, whether they are married or not makes no difference. If I am not to judge that as a "bad thing" then I agree with you. Otherwise, yes I paint most strippers as people who do what I just said.

Perhaps they are "nice people" and bake cookies for little old ladies. Good for them, but they still do the nasty stuff I just mentioned and it is NASTY IMO, and yes I judge them and paint with the same brush.

All firefighters are different. Some cheat, some lie, some steal, some would give their lives to save a stranger. And some that cheat and lie would still give their lives to save a stranger. Most people including strippers have good and bad traits. But just like one thing all fire fighters have in common (so I paint them with the same brush in this way) they fight fires. And most, if not all strippers do sexual things (more than just dance, with men and they don't care if they are married or not as long as they pay).

DD has a friend that has been a stripper - does that count?

neh, sorry, no that doesn't count.

Hmmm, so would the stripper be welcome in your home if she was a friend of your sons but not dating him?

ETA: not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand

[This message edited by neverendinghurt at 12:03 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]

Are they only defined by their professions?

And where in my post did I state that people are only defined by their profession? Please, do not put words in my mouth or take my statement out of context.

Many things define us, our profession is but one. It is not simply "what we do" ~ Here is an extreme...I am a drug dealer, it is how I make my living (yes, there are people who see their "profession" i.e.:occupation, as a drug dealer)... Is this simply what I do or is it also reflective of who I am as a person?

IMO, all of our actions/decisions are reflective of who we are...even our choice of profession.

[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 12:22 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]

silverhopes ~

how is Mr SisterMilkshake responding to all of this? Is he being reassuring? Has he done or said anything to make you uncomfortable? How are you feeling about him right now in this situation?

This is how he is responding Ok, not shocked but the "deer in the headlights" look. Mr.Sister briefly saw DS and his date getting into the car. All he said about her was that she was thinner than DS's last GF. Last GF wasn't fat, but had a large rear end and thighs as big as MrSisters waist. Mr.Sister is a conflict avoider. He also processes things much more thoughtfully and slowly than I do. I am sure we will talk about it at some point if this relationship continues and seems to be more than just a few dates.

DS had another date with PSG. I didn't see him for over 24 hours, but he also worked in the time period.

triskele ~

What is your H's opinion? Would or could he have a man to man with the son out of his concern to protect his son from the obvious long term outcome?

Yes, I believe at some point he would have a talk with his DS. DS respects his father a lot. Ya know, I haven't really point blank asked him how he feels about DS dating a stripper. However, I do know his opinion of strippers isn't very high. He knows they manipulate men for money and doesn't think highly of the women and men who participate in the whole stripping dynamic.

neh ~ Milkshake home = stripper free zone

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

eta: gawd, I can't even believe I had to say that

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:41 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]

neh ~ Milkshake home = stripper free zone

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

eta: gawd, I can't even believe I had to say that

then I don't see a difference when it comes to my DD having a friend that was a stripper, oh and to be clear, DD knew her while she was a stripper, she just isn't one now.

I really just think it is a shame to judge people before getting to know them a little.

Yes, you are perfectly within your right to do what you are doing - if you are not comfortable then you are not comfortable.

The thing about lap dances - have you seen people dancing in clubs these days?

It looks to me that there are lot of girls and women giving away lap dances on dance floors these days.

it's not just some strippers

neh ~ maybe we are talking about 2 different issues? I was saying how maybe you would feel differently if your DD decided to take up stripping or "dancing" for a living or dating a lets say a male stripper, but that really doesn't do justice to the feelings of a mother who's son is dating a stripper. Males strippers aren't quite the same as females.

I must again respectfully disagree. In many cases a person profession is not simply what a person does...it is who they are

I didn't put words in your mouth. I posed a question when I used the word "only".

I think we can sum up my feeling by saying I believe that what a person does is not always indicative of who they are.

Bobbi-Sue - I understand your distaste for what strippers do. That is not the point I'm making or the broad stroke I was referring to.

This is starting to be a t/j so I'm going to respectfully bow out by again saying IMO, professions are not always an indication of WHO people truly are...strippers included.

[This message edited by iggyD at 1:09 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]

Ok, another way to look at this.

This girl had a clear and conscious choice to entire a profession in the sex industry, fully aware that there is a negative connotation connected.

It is completely HER choice to do so, knowing that she has chosen to WORK at having men objectify her for money.

I simply cannot comprehend how this does NOT define the person that she is. If someone can enlighten me, I would appreciate it.

The message she has chosen to send to others is that she has no moral makeup that prevents herself from selling herself for cheap, illicit favors.

For those of you with daughters, is this the message you want them to embrace? That it is ok to sell themselves to any lecherous individual with a wallet, because it is making a living?

And the message we are giving to our sons- that it is ok to BUY sexual pleasure, simply because it is available? As parents, isn't it our responsibility to teach our children to respect others, and that it is not a good thing to objectify and use people?

To each his own regarding porn, or what is done behind your own bedroom doors.

SIster, my H would and HAS had a man to man with our daughters' H's. As young men in their 20's, they were still of the school of thought that strip clubs were party places, with loose women, and no real harm involved with consenting parties. In a nutshell, he really bared all with what he had done, how easily he and others got sucked in, and what really goes on in a club. The "youngsters" who'd thought it was all about a $20 no contact lap dance while they sat on their hands, realized that was the easy money for the strippers, but not where their rent came from. The lead on and the fantasy, and integral weakness in him to be everyone's KISA- broken manipulative people with questionable moral fiber- enticing men looking for attention and validation, with FOO issues and job issues- it's a recipe for disaster. It is disrespectful of men to use these women- and in my eyes, and also his, now- they are no different than prostitutes. They simply set prices for certain sex acts- who cares if they don't go all the way- it's all sex for sale.

He explained that men often feel a sense of entitlement to relax and enjoy the show, but really, let's face it, strip clubs today are not burlesques of yesterday. He was open and honest and encouraged them to think of the consequences, from hurting their own relationships to their own health. According to H, regulars are frequently kissed by strippers, who have already kissed how many others, or performed how many bj's before? Herpes, HPV and gonnorhea run rampant in these clubs. Those kisses don't mean they like you...

I know I've gone overboard and written you back a short novel, but I know that he sees it very clearly now. And his words meant something... my SIL was at a stag party with a party bus... he'd promised not to go to a club... but my dd drove past and saw their bus in the parking lot. She nearly barged into the club, but stopped at the bus first. To her relief, her H and another guy who'd promised his wife he'd stay out of the club, were inside, having a beer and waiting for their entourage.

And neh, sure, we know that dancing in regular clubs gets pretty racy. But still, there is a difference between some sexy dancing, and a guy paying a girl to dance nude or in a teeny g-string, rubbing their genitals on his, rubbing their breasts all over, including face and mouth. Yeah, one is dirty dancing. The other is simulated sex for money with naked girl in a private closet.

Sometimes, it's better to take off the rose colored glasses and be blunt and honest...

[This message edited by triskele at 1:16 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]

I'm definitely confused but hell that's not new.

Would I want DD dating a male stripper, no probably not, but I would't stop her from bringing one home if she was.

Her female friend did strip and she did come to our house.

Would I want my DS dating a stripper, again it would not be my first choice for him, but again, I wouldn't prevent him from bringing her home if he was.

There are certain types of people I would definitely be uncomfortable around, bigots, racists etc. I really wouldn't want my kids dating that type of person, but I wouldn't know what they were like until I got to know them anyway.

DS dated a girl several years ago, one of the first girls he dated. She was from a nice family, she was a senior in high school at the time, honor role, athlete blah, blah. She was also psycho bitch from hell - it just took a while for us all to realise that She is probably working some "resepecatble" job now.

Wow. I am a little surprised at the turn of this thread.

Yes, not wanting your son to date a stripper is judgmental. But, I think it is for good reason.

There are exceptions to every rule, and I'm sure if we did a poll we could come up with many stories of strippers with hearts of gold that went on to be doctors and lawyers and such. But if you were to take a bet, the smart money is on this stripper being a damaged person.

As a rule people who choose to work in the sex industry do so because of some type of dysfunction, desperation, or an array of poor life choices. People with good opportunities, supportive families, and good coping skills do not choose to take off their clothes for strangers in exchange for dirty dollar bills.

So chances are this girl is someone who for some reason thought taking off her clothes for money was her only option. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want my family member hooking up with her either. People with that level of drama and life lacking in support and options tend to bring their problems with them.

Now is their a chance she will collect her crumpled dollar bills, save up and get her life together? Sure, some do. But that is a small minority, and I don't blame OP for not wanting her son to take that long shot bet.

triskele ~ your post brought tears to my eyes. Okay, to be honest I have had very little sleep and I am feeling very emotional. However, you must be very proud of your H. And, of your SIL's. It seems they really listened and learned from your H. Happy, happy, joy, joy!

neh ~ I think I confused myself! I understand what you are saying. You would give the strippers a chance and get to know them. You would welcome them into your home, no matter if they were friends or dates. And, I won't.

My plate is very full. I am dealing with all kinds of emotional crap (infidelity related, financially related, elderly parents, etc. ) I don't need to deal with stripper issues. I feel, right or wrong, that most strippers come with big time dysfunction/damage. Don't need it, don't want it in my life.

SM - May I just say, I understand where you are coming from. Certainly we all know how much we can or cannot tolerate. And what we will or will not accept. And bottom line is we're all entitled to our feelings and opinions.

I'm glad that we have a place for this type of dialogue. Your thread has really been thought-provoking.