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I agree with Italianjob.

Look, I am going to excuse myself from this thread. The seesawing is making me dizzy.

Only decisive action will resolve this issue and ICO has gotten a really good plan from the dozens of the people here and won't heed anything other than informing OMW.

Good luck ICO. Hopefully these people keep helping you.

I think you'd benefit from reading notperfect5's story. Lots of similarities and it would probably give you a passenger's seat view of a similar situation. A train wreck in slow motion.

What a wonderful way to live....

ItalianJob is totaly right.

Good luck

[This message edited by TIMETOREACT at 12:49 PM, July 30th (Thursday)]

Trust but verify.

I hate this phrase, because it's a bunch a Balogna.

DO NOT TRUST, and be perfectly clear with your WS that you DO NOT TRUST and you WILL NOT TRUST again, for a very very very long time if ever. She did this. She needs to understand that is a consequence.

The only road to real R is brutal honesty. This has to be the framework for healing.

You wanna know what happens when you trust but verify?

You find out after the fact.

You wanna know what happens when you DO NOT TRUST, and assume that your spouse is a liar (because they are). You figure things out before they happen, and you are able to protect yourself.

This trainwreck is gaining speed.

Ok so I was checking up on what a narsasist is. I can't say it describes her perfectly but there do seem to be some similarities.

I tried to figure out what types of things they do in long term relationships. The co-dependency thing (me) seems to play well into this.

Anyone have some examples? The Internet is a bit scarce on those.

At this point, with all that you have heard, both from her and everyone here, nothing has changed.

So here is the question to ask yourself. What's in it for you? What kind of emotional payoff are you getting doing this dance? Are you in some way enjoying this dance?

Because to everyone else it looks like you are punching yourself in the nuts daily.

I thought she was trying to get another job. If she can put off the meeting to UK until October or November, surely she will have been able to find another job before then. Won't she?

She's been good about that part and agreed.

Saintly.

This may explain a lot of who she is, and your role in this mess -http://gettinbetter.com/BPDlove.html

ICO, when I read your last post, asking about more resources for research, I thought "wow, this man could be the poster boy for 'Good Guy Who Wants to FIX EVERYTHING'

Don't take that the wrong way. I know exactly how nightmarish this is - like you said, this is your wife, the mother of your children... I did the same things too - read read read, what can I do? How can I change? 'WE CAN FIX THIS!!!!' screaming in my head when I wasn't sobbing from an intrusive thought/image...

Same reasoning too - I can't destroy her! I love her! She's the mother of my children, love of my life! She loves that job!

She said EXACTLY the same thing too: What do I do if you change your mind?!? I NEED that job!!!

So I 'fixed' it... I trusted. I read. We went to counselling. I 'verified' (as much as I could - which lets face it isn't much when they work for the same company)

About 7 months later I was standing at our kitchen counter. I was stone sober. It was 4 am. I was cutting my wrist with a box cutter. It was really strange, I wasn't trying to kill myself (I was pretty sure) - I was just.... Doing it. I will always have the scars - still a little self concious about them.

Apparently (psychiatrist tells me) I was in so much emotional pain and so traumatized by how out of control my life felt - even though on the surface we looked totally normal - I was hurting myself because it was something I could CONTROL.

I have no history of mental illness. No history of self-harm. Middle aged, educated, by all accounts 'nice guy'.

That's what attempting to 'fix it' they way you are proposing did to me.

Her working there won't work. It will destroy you, a little more each day. You are signing up for hell. Just be aware of that.

She uses an app called viber on her phone. It's not to talk to him,

What is it for, then?

but she is going to remove it.

Can this be uninstalled and reinstalled in minutes? So she can uninstall it on leaving the house and reinstalling it on returning? Most can.

I don't this app. It doesn't leave any trail and just seems like a cheaters' heaven, which is why her cheater friend uses it.

She asked me what else she needed to do to help gain my trust. Besides leaving the job, I really wasn't sure.

How about dumping her cheater friend? And telling her cheater's husband so he can find out the truth of his life?

I can't say she's doing nothing.

I understand you are not ready to do what needs to be done, but don't lie to yourself. You are in denial that you can monitor her.

I do believe initially she was willing to do whatever you demanded, but then she pushed back a little, tried to test you, and you fell like a house of cards. You initially had momentum, now she has gotten the upper hand. She is in control and has decided she can continue to see and talk with her star-crossed lover. Every time she talks to him, hears about him, it is an epic fail to help this happen:

I just didn't feel a commitment from her. She knows that I need to see that from her going forward. I hope she does it.

Do you remember this one from 12 days ago?

She said it hit her today that as much as she loves her job, she would quit it for me. For us. For our kids.

The number one red flag of cheating is hiding/guarding the phone. After you've discovered about the affair, she will not be able to hide or guard the phone any longer, she will have to find another way to get her "fix." Easy enough, she has a chat feature at her job that you can't ever monitor. She can get a burner phone for less than $20. She doesn't even have to buy it, other man can buy it and send it to her.

The number two red flag of cheating is the behavior. You are watching it happen right now. You can't see it. Maybe you are too close to it, too afraid, hanging on too tight.

Do you remember this one from 12 days ago?

She said she read a quote that really resonated with her, "You can't have a little cocaine and hope to feel a little better." Something to that effect at least. She says that she can't expect a little "Hi, how are you?" emails to him to make her feel better. She knows that it would do no good.

You let her enable her "cocaine." You haven't yet reached where you are ready to give some "tough love." That's OK, you will get there.

This is about far more than me and my relationship to her. I also remembered a time when she got very close to another man online. I stopped it then. I see a pattern now.

Can you explain a little how she got very close to another man online? How long ago? How did he meet her? How did you stop it then? Has this been discussed at all with the new affair?

For many people we have a fight or flight response and ICO I think you had a freeze response. Its been a long week and It is good you are doing things for yourself, keep doing that ,, keep up the self care .. everyone processes this stuff in their own way.

I thought back to my own reactions after my first DDAY. The night of DDAY I asked him to get out of my face. I went four days without talking to him. Then I told him I did not want to see him or talk to him. By 7 days I was calm and talking very openly and willing to see his side of things. I was talking forgiveness also. Trying to fix and figure out how we were gonna fix it. Every day I felt something new. By day 14 I wanted to know everything .. I even wrote a list of questions, I wanted to know about sexual positions, where they met, if they cuddled, what was said i wanted to know EVERYTHING. this was not until day 14. By day 21 the anger set in and I was angry for two months straight.

So what I am saying is .. you are still new to this ... you will feel differently every day .. .and maybe you are feeling pressured right now .. i hope not.

If you keep doing what you are doing you will have another DDAY. It may be in six months or even in a couple years but you will have one. BC your wife is not remorseful .. not remorseful enough to drive R forward the way it needs to go. Your wife is a cheater. She is a lier. And she will do it again if she does not do the hard work required to change her moral compass. She is also very selfish ... this is not a good combination coming into R.

Like you I did not want to believe this for myself .. I loved my man and I just did not want to believe R was not possible for me. I was told by my own IC and other supports but I stubbornly refused to believe them. Then I found a email he sent to a craigslist casual encounter add. When I confronted him he became angry and it was STILL about him. I had to stop deluding myself at that point. Did it hurt? yes. Very much.

Keep taking care of yourself. Keep the IC appointments, keep detaching. Because that is what I did and when DDAY 2 came it did not destroy me because I got stronger.

(((hugs to you)))

Viber is *much* more popular in Europe than it is in the U.S. (Where WhatsApp I guess is the market leader, maybe Facebook Messenger...but Facebook bought WhatsApp so who cares)

Tenorshare will recovered deleted Viber messages on IPhone. Android has some too. If she truly hasn't been using it to communicate with him then she should have no problem with you recovering those messages.

[This message edited by eric1 at 9:42 PM, July 30th (Thursday)]

I'm going to quit posting for a bit. As I get further into this I can feel the roller coaster. Yesterday I was all happy and hugs and shit, today I am pissed off beyond belief.

I want to make sure my feelings are genuinely mine and not adsorbed from either her or anyone else.

Once I get to a little more stable place I'll update on what's going on. You are tired of the seesaw and I sure as hell am too.

Clear your head.

Just promise two things-

- keep a written journal of your own thoughts

- don't cancel the lawyer appointment for any reason

day up and day down will last about 6 months or so, then turn into week up and week down. For me, on my down days, I was all, gun ho about divorce and up days I was hopeful that she would sign the postnup and we could work through it.

So you aren't alone there man, and that's normal too.

ICO good luck with the time away - hope it allows you to focus on how YOU are feeling and what you need.

Looking back, I have often thought I should have left immediately and stayed away for about a month for exactly the reason you have stated.

Please be sure your thoughts are YOURS. Be honest with yourself. Be honest about what you are thinking, and what you can and cannot accept. Be honest about what you need to move forward.

If you have to talk to someone (no shame in that!) - make sure it is someone who is 100% on your side and has no vested interest in any way in R or D.

Before you go dark for a while, read the thread of a guy called DoneGone who posted today after a couple of months of hyatus. His situation is similar to yours, you've gotta read it.

Please remember we know where you are. We have walked in your shoes. We want the best for you. Your wife has proven to be anything but that. You take a break but remember that none of who successfully saved our M's didn't do it by rugsweeping or rolling over and being the submissive nice guy.

Standing up for our beliefs, our riggts, and not tolerating any but the utmost respect saved our Ms.

I went dark too...this place can overwhelm. Especially when you are hearing what U don't wanna hear. I used to do it all the time so I get it 100%.

Don't let HOPE dictate your moves...let her ACTIONS guide you. I lived off hope for months...my WW got served this week....that's where hope got me.

[This message edited by Sybo at 6:38 PM, July 31st (Friday)]