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Oral sex was I big part of my PAs. So to my BS she would have visualization when she tried. So we do not try anymore. We. Consider it a casualty of the As. In the beginning I had thoughts like. "You mean never again" but once you can put yourself in their shoes. And really feel what that would feel like. You wouldn't even ask it of them. Unless oral sex is more important than your M.

Dr. J

PS our overall sex life has moved from 3x a week to 2to3 times a month.

But, in my very humble opinion, going into R thinking of the ways you're going to withhold things from your spouse is often going to lead to a lifetime of hurt and resentment for both parties. Let me say, YES, your husband deserves to never have you go down on him again. He deserves a LOT worse than that. But, especially with sexual things, if you start withholding them, your setting up a scenario where you're marriage will be in jeopardy again.

Unfortunately, you are off on this one.

My husband is a recovering SA. Our marriage hinges on his sobriety, not whether or not we have oral sex.

We have been together for 20+ years. He's been sober for 6ish of those years. In short, he has proven by words AND deed that he is sexually not a safe person for me for most of our relationship.

Now, my DH could have minded my boundaries, but he chose to relapse for a good 1-2 years and hide that from me. Because his addiction/getting high is still the most important thing to him.

My obligation right now, is to keep myself safe in my relationship as I see fit.

Well, the SA case is different. That would be like an A where the H went out drinking with the AP all the time; if the wife is a recovering alcoholic, no, you don't "recreate" those times with the AP, but it's not because you refuse, it's because the BS has a condition that makes it impossible to recreate. So, yes, I agree with this one.

However, most of the other situations, I really struggle with. If you really enjoy oral sex with your W, and she refuses to do it because you did it with an AP, I just can't see that being healthy, it feels like there will always be resentment there. If it works for you, fine, but I'd never suggest doing it as a standard course of action for R, and I'd never to it to my WS, who did all kinds of kink with the AP that wasn't offered to me that's given me a multitude of psychological and sexual issues. R is "all in" for me or all out, I'm going to give it everything I can, or I'm going to D. And if that means that some sexual acts now cause me to think of the AP, so be it, because I can't live thinking the last man who went down on my W was him. And I'd never expect her to stay in a relationship where I withheld something like that (assuming it was important to her) from her.

Well, I am a male wayward and a cake eater. I did it for the undivided attention. Not for a BJ.

going into R with a list of "here's what I won't do anymore" (for the BS) is a terrible way to look at things, IMHO. Especially when it's sexual in nature, that's asking the WS to live in a relationship that will forever deny them certain experiences; does that sound like something that's done out of love or out of spite (especially if you used to do them together)?

As far as a BS withholding sex, why is it viewed as punishment if they do? Why is it viewed that it will always be that way like some doom and gloom shit? The biggest probability is that the BS is not comfortable or safe on an emotional level because of our cheating and doesn't want to do certain things till they are. Should they suck that up and just do what a WS wants just in the name of R? The view is unhealthy. BS do not play the pick me dance by doing everything the AP did for your WS. The AP gave in to mostly unhealthy and unrealistic needs, wants, and demands. Where is the accountability the wayward needs in order to change, by giving in to their whims? My wife and I watched a Dr. Phil show with the AP of Chef Ramsay. The chic was full of shit. Become the AP. Become the mistress. Become the slave more like it (lose your dignity and self respect) and don't demand that your husband acts like and adult and stops acting like a child with his hand in the cookie jar forever. Doesn't sound remorseful to me. Sounds like a WS that is entitled. So nice to jump on the bandwagon of do anything to save the marriage after the fact that we blow it up. But, hey it is okay because it is in the name of R. How about the WS learn how to have some impulse control and do without till the BS feels comfortable enough to give in to the WS instant gratification needs. If your marriage is so vulnerable that the intimacy and the marriage is going to fall apart without oral within less than 2 years after Dday, then you have more things to worry about. WS and BS should work together. After the WS steps up to plate and gets their entitled head out of their ass. Own their shit. Make amends. Allow the BS to heal. Change. Otherwise, what you suggest is just rug sweeping and I wouldn't be surprised if infidelity rears its ugly head in the future.

You are right on one thing. Resentment. It goes both ways. Expect one to do certain things they aren't emotionally ready to give a cheating spouse and I bet their will be resentment and it will be the BS that has it. Sad if the cheating spouse hasn't owned their shit and changed but has resentment for their betrayed spouse for not stepping up to the plate. Sounds a Hell of a lot like regret and not remorse or compassion for the BS they hurt.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 9:13 AM, December 29th (Friday)]

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 8:35 AM, January 26th (Friday)]

I think what you're skipping is that nobody is making a check list of things that are off limits. It's what happens after an A. If sucking my WH's dick gives me mind movies of OW doing it, why should I make myself? I shouldn't. Plus, if he didn't want me to pause on that, all he had to do was keep his penis in his pants. It's really not that hard--ha. And it's not a punishment--it's ONLY a result of his poor choices, a side effect. But pretend it was a punishment, who cares? My WH punished me for 14/15 months without me knowing. At least he would know what's happening and why.

I don't know a guy who would enjoy a BJ from a tearful giver. I'd like to think my WH, anybody's WS, would recognize the sexual rift THEY caused on purpose, and would patiently and understandingly wait until their BS feels comfortable enough to go there again.

But pretend it was a punishment, who cares? My WH punished me for 14/15 months without me knowing. At least he would know what's happening and why. My WH punished me for 14/15 months without me knowing. At least he would know what's happening and why.

I'm going to let this one be after this post, the last thing I want to do is trigger people who are in the same situation I am. But I will respond to this.

Nobody would ever argue, myself included, that he doesn't DESERVE the "punishment". Of course he does. In fact, a wayward deserves divorce, it's that simple. The ultimate "punishment". By choosing R, you're not inflicting that on them, and yes, I suppose you can see it (and many do) as "I didn't give you the rod, but I'm going to give you a stick instead". I choose to view it differently, I wanted to R so that my WW and I could come back together, emotionally, sexually and spiritually. Not so that I could use the A to stop doing things that weren't about me, not so I could punish her, and not to make her life difficult.

You know how much I felt like saying "I love you" after d-day? Not a whole hell of a lot. But I did it, because, the best chance to heal the relationship, in my view, was to act as if until I felt that way again. And today, I feel that way again. I could have said "you're a dirty &(*)" and been totally justified, in fact, I would be stating the truth. But would it help R? That's the question I asked myself, was something I did likely to help R, or was it to make myself feel better and get "revenge". I tried to do the first, and tried to avoid the second. I failed many times, and still fail on a daily basis. But I'm trying to not come at it from the perspective of "here's what you're never going to have again that you really like" which is what I feel like I see some of in this thread.

Does it matter? It would to me (if I were a WH). Hearing my wife say "I want to R" but "You're never getting a BJ again" (assuming we used to do that) would send conflicting messages and make me question her reasons for R; was it to keep enjoying the lifestyle and the status as a wife, or was it because she loved me and wanted me to get better. Would I D if certain sexual acts were forever off the table because of my hypothetical A? Maybe, not because certain sexual things are that important, but because it would say to me that my W didn't really want to R; right or wrong, that's what it would say to me.

I apologize if this triggered anyone, and, as a BS, the last thing you need is pressure to do things you don't want to do, so, please take this as "my opinion only" and what I chose to do with my WW. There's no right answer here, just a bunch of possible answers, take the one that works best for you.

RideitOut I think it is awesome that you are able to be with your wife sexually in all the ways you were before plus some. I hope she appreciates how incredibly lucky she is to be with someone who despite the abuse she heaped on them is willing to do this. It is hard and painful work. Not everyone can do that immediately.

I try. I am good, giving and game. But often we have to stop because of tears and panic attacks. Oral sex was off the table for awhile even after we restarted intimacy (which was a few months post DDay) because I would just fucking crumble giving or receiving. Like BHB said, my H is not into a tearful BJ and he knew he ruined that and if not for his A he would have continued getting them cheerfully and regularly from me. He was patient and kind to me and continues to be. It has improved and slowly continues to improve.

This shit takes time and everyone has their own timelines. Most people aren't making a list of things they won't do- they just aren't ready to face that trauma yet of returning to that sex act.

If me realizing that oral was causing me more pain than pleasure and needed to be tabled until I was ready was enough for my h to want a D- I would have gladly told him "don't let the door hit you". Indeed if any sex act was important enough for him to throw me away over he could gtfo of my house.

Of course he wouldn't because he was and remains grateful for the chance to repair the damage he did on my timeline.

Geez. You're just focusing one this one part that I am, and others are, saying is not the why I don't do certain things. I'm not trying to punish my WH; I'm trying to heal myself. And if that is perceived as a punishment to my WH, we'll idk. Also, if my not giving a BJ until I can get through it normally, without tears and mind movies, causes my WH to decide to D, well I'm better for it, bc he would have made it abundantly clear that is and always will be a selfish asshole.

I wanted to R so that my WW and I could come back together, emotionally, sexually and spiritually. Not so that I could use the A to stop doing things that weren't about me, not so I could punish her, and not to make her life difficult.

There is the problem. It is black and white with you. It isn't like that for most people. They need time to process and heal. There is nothing wrong with that.

You know how much I felt like saying "I love you" after d-day? Not a whole hell of a lot. But I did it, because, the best chance to heal the relationship, in my view, was to act as if until I felt that way again. And today, I feel that way again. I could have said "you're a dirty &(*)" and been totally justified, in fact, I would be stating the truth. But would it help R? That's the question I asked myself, was something I did likely to help R, or was it to make myself feel better and get "revenge". I tried to do the first, and tried to avoid the second. I failed many times, and still fail on a daily basis. But I'm trying to not come at it from the perspective of "here's what you're never going to have again that you really like" which is what I feel like I see some of in this thread.

There also is no point in continuing to lie when you are supposed to be finding a new level of transparency. BTW, I don't see any posters here that are saying "never again or I am doing this to punish you" It worked for you because maybe your wife was healthier than most waywards. Many people have waywards like me. That aren't healthy and will just continue to abuse if given such positive reinforcement like you suggest. My wife tried that for three months and I ran with it. Hey, the best of both worlds. I get a super attentive wife fighting for me and feeding my unrealistic needs and wants. When I should have been thankful for the wife I always had that was absolutely normal and good.

We had a couple like you a year ago. The wife scolded BS for not being more understanding about the needs and position of waywards. How her BH niced her out. Three months later they were back. They were in false R because he just let her rugsweep her issues and they focused on the M becoming some "Leave It to Beaver" BS. She had no incentive to change because she was getting so much positive support for her and her needs from her husband. They chose to focus on the M and where it failed instead of focusing on the fact that she fucked up and failed the M. She just continued her behavior because they used the M as a scapegoat.

I am glad your way worked for you. But, I find fault with your view that if a BS doesn't work that way it is considered "vengeful" by you.

And if that is perceived as a punishment to my WH, we'll idk.

If it is viewed as punishment to your husband than he is still just be a selfish self absorbed immature man that can't handle not getting what he wants. Then all the more reason not to give in to his lack of impulse control and restraints. You don't cure a WS by giving them everything they want or need. We have been doing that for ourselves for how long? And look where that got us. Entitled selfish pricks. Don't feel bad about it and don't fill the role of his AP especially at this point where he is just taking advantage of you and taking you for granted. Intimacy will come when both parties are ready and should never be forced for R or the sake to save a M.

Oh, he's not like that at all. There are a lot of things I cant bring myself to do, but I'm getting better with time. I don't have a list, or a plan, or an order as to when the things I can't do now as a result of his A will come back. He knows that. He always says whAtevr I want to do is more than fine with him, and he is just thankful that I'm giving him what I am...in regards to sex, but moreso with our entire marriage and the chance to repair what he broke.

I didn't tell him I loved him for months. I couldn't. I didn't even know if I did anymore. Why would I say something like that I might not mean? I hate a liar--I don't want to be one! And I won't push myself too fast. I'm watching and working and trying to be patient. I do tell him I love him--I do. But I say it when it feels right to me, which is a lot more frequently than a few months ago.

I just wanted to say that I almost threw up the first time I went to give my husband a bj after Dday. I literally had to stop. All I pictured was him with exAp. I also sobbed, like ugly cried after the first time we had sex after Dday. All was good then... 💥 We did go through a HB phase. Sometimes, it went great, and sometimes I would be assaulted with mind movies and intrusive thoughts. Super sexy stuff huh? Anyway, it’s been a couple years since those moments, and our sex life is thriving. It was hard at first ( no pun intended), but he continued to make me feel safe,sexy and loved, and I continued to heal. The affair is no longer in our bedroom. We had sex like 3x a week during the heavy part of his affair , and average like 5 to 6x a week now. We are In a really good place so don’t lose hope.

[This message edited by heartneedsglue at 3:30 PM, December 29th (Friday)]

but he continued to make me feel safe,sexy and loved, and I continued to heal.

That is a good point to make. Your wayward husband pulled his weight and more to make amends and to build you up. That is what a wayward should do. Not expect the BS to pick up the slack or to expect the BS to fix any prior M problems right away. The wayward should earn the BS. The wayward. If the wayward is remorseful and truly wants R for themselves and the M, then they will not push any agenda and will be patient. If they aren't then it is a red flag that they aren't growing up or changing.

PP,

A lot has already been discussed, so I’ll just add/focus on a few things:

-Right, there is no medically sanctioned test for assessing HPV in men. Yes, it’s possible that he could contract HPV from you by giving you oral sex, and it’s also possibe for him to contract it from deep kissing - but they don’t have enough decent studies to nail down the probabilities yet. This is not true when the virus is not currently active.

-Given that you had abnormal cells at your last pap, why are you waiting until April to be retested? My obgyn retested me after 6 months. I get that it may be an insurance requirement to wait, but they would probably back off if your obgyn pushed. I’d strongly encourage you to get retested soon for piece of mind.

-This whole thread is full of speculation that can only be resolved by communicating with your husband.

You stated this:

Its like I can't break past that, I'm 39 now, when we met I was 20. I've changed. I feel like if I go out of my "norm" that will throw him off, upset him or making him feel like I am acting for his sake.

Putting aside the affair for a moment, this can and does transpire in many marriages over time. Communication gets rusty. Couples get busy and routines set in.

But please consider how much womens bodies change over time. We enter our sexual primes beginning around your age. Mine took off in my early to mid forties, and I was too shy to discuss it with my husband. I was resigned to him wanting meat and potatoes sex, quantity over quality, and I didn’t have the confidence to ask for anything different. In fact, I was fairly confident that he wasn’t capable of it.

Have you considered buying a book or two, or downloading articles, and approaching him with them? If you feel shy about it, try laying them out for him with a short note. Or email him a link. Or bring something short with you the next time you’re intimate, and ask him if you guys can try it? I personally would broach it under the auspices of “hey, I keep reading that women’s bodies change a lot and I think that’s happening to me, can we please mix things up a little” and see what happens. You may be surprised.

I know I was; shocked, in fact. In my case, I had some pretty deep FOO stuff that I had to get past and was borderline terrified to discuss my hopes/desires with him. I found an article online about something I wanted to try, and I asked - handed him the iPad when words failed me. Yes, he was surprised, but then he said sure. Now my meat and potatoes guy is a gourmet chef. Sex in our 50s is the best of our entire marriage, and neither of us had a clue it could be this way.

This can be a Brene Brown vulnerability opportunity for you. Give it a shot.

Good luck,

HPV

ps This could actually be an opportunity for your husband to totally claim new territory. Women’s physiological changes often continue throughout their 40s and 50s, so this will all be for him, if that makes any sense.

[This message edited by hpv50 at 9:43 AM, January 1st (Monday)]