SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've always felt that if a WW doesn't want to do for her BH that which she did for her AP, it's because she's trying to keep her A and her AP special in her mind. She doesn't want to taint those exciting memories by betraying her AP with her H by doing those things.

Mancunian said:

My WW is 42. She says her lack of passion for me is not because of me but herself, the realization of what she has done, shame, disgust, etc. She is promising to make it up to me. But whatever she is offering now is not enough for me.

Mancunian - I remember your story. Your WW had an A for 15 years of your 20 year marriage, right?

Well brother, if this thread accomplishes nothing else other than help you move forward, then I think there's a lot of people here that will say that some good came of this thread.

Ok....for the females...

This is not a good analogy because the original premise assumes that what the BS wants from the WS is something they have always wanted but accepted the likelihood of it was never going to happen. Then when it happens for the OP, it spawns the reasonable assertion that the deal of not getting it is no longer valid since they showed they have always been willing to give it, just not to the BS.

Maybe something like, a BS has always loved the opera or traveling. Loved it. Always wanted their spouse to accompany them or take them places but the spouse always said, it's just not me. I don't like those things. Then the spouse has an A and, you guessed it, they went to the opera with their OP and took them on secret travel adventures.

Now the analogy works because it is very likely the BS still loves the opera and traveling, and still would like her WS to enjoy it with her, and has a completely different frame of reference knowing that their BS is more than willing to do those things, and the "it's just no my thing" excuses will be difficult to swallow after the A.

If the WS still refused to go to the opera or take the BS to travel destination, I am pretty certain there would be a thread very similar to this one on that topic, but not about sex this time.

[This message edited by DIFM at 11:41 AM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

You know what, sex is REALLY important in a marriage. It just dammit is. If it weren't, I doubt this infidelity shit would hurt this deeply.

High or low libido matter, but honestly...you know how to best turn yourself on? Act sexy and suggest something really naughty to your spouse. You know how to best turn your spouse off and crush their spirit? Have them act sexy, suggest something naughty, turn them down flat or look at them like they're a weirdo. This thread makes me want a divorce more than any I've read on here. I've checked, double-checked and triple-checked myself to see whether or not I'm attractive. I don't have bad breath, I don't have BO, I take care of myself, I'm pretty, hell even my boobs are new and look great thanks to breast reduction surgery a couple of years ago. I get hit on by other men. But I don't get what I want most. I want to come home and have my husband put me up against the wall and just dammit take me. I want him to initiate sex. I want to feel like he views me as his woman. I know that I could find that with another man. He just isn't going to be that for me. But you know what? I bet you if he put forth the effort, he'd be into it. He KNOWS that this would rock my world. I'm starved for him to lust after me.

If you betrayed your spouse and yet they have given you the incredible gift of R, it is your obligation whether male or female to fix this shit. It's not "too hard". It wasn't too hard to pursue other people. It should not be too hard to pursue the one you supposedly love and want to spend your life with. If you're a quadraplegic, you can at least talk dirty to them. SOMETHING. For God's sake, make an effort.

Where is the clapping gif when you need it ?

Amen, Dee, Amen.

If the WS still refused to go to the opera or take the BS to travel destination, I am pretty certain there would be a thread very similar to this one on that topic, but not about sex this time.

If there was a thread like this, it wouldn't look anything like what we currently have here. That thread would die out <1 page, because we'd all jump in and say "Your H/W who won't take you to the opera is showing you that you and your needs are second place to their own. You don't matter to them, move on". There would be no disagreement, because, there are a lot of threads that revolve around this issue and, if it's not sex, we all agree, it's ridiculous to even "try" at R if you're not willing to put your BS first.

The thing is, and this is where its really a mess, even if there was some situation like this, W won't go to opera with the H, for example, even though she went for the AP, there's always another option. The H can go to opera by himself, and they agree that it's something the other doesn't need to be involved in. Sex isn't the same, A WS saying "not for you" means that, assuming you stay faithful, you will NEVER go to the opera again. Not only will your WS not go with you, but they are further forbidding you for ever attending again by way of exclusivity of the sexual relationship. That's what sets sex into this special area, it's not just that you don't miss out on enjoying it with your spouse, you miss out on it entirely. Like, in my example, saying, not only will I not go with you, but you can NEVER go again. And, if I ever catch you listening to it (watching porn, in this analogy) that's going to be a problem too.

It's a huge hurdle. I just don't think that most people can jump it. I couldn't. And I don't think that anyone SHOULD have to jump it. Because, in my analogy, why on earth would I go to opera with my AP and not my BS if they both really enjoy it? That's a slap in the face after a punch in the jaw (which would be doing things that had been denied with the AP) after a gunshot wound (the A).

Doesn't sound like you're in true R. More like your back to the way things were Pre-A.

No, Golden, not even close. She is back to her old self. She knows, there is no more chances. She won't even look at anyone else. I think she is scared to death of me waking up one day and leaving. I just don't care anymore and she knows it.

Honestly, she is acting as good as gold. I just realize that obviously he had something I didn't when it came to her. She denies it and hates him now but, who cares anymore. There will always be someone better than someone else no matter what it is. So if she feels he was so much better in the sack than me, nothing that I can do about it. She denies it and says he was really juvenile at it but I just look at how she acted with him.

Just some thoughts...

Sex is great, but one can live without it. If the marriage is happy in every other way, is it really really worth leaving? You may get a partner who gives you hot sex, but doesn't pay any bills or clean or give a shit about your feelings.

YES infidelity makes it a much bigger issue, and I agree it may be something you need to consider in regard to how important it really is.

It's a mess :(

Sex is great, but one can live without it. If the marriage is happy in every other way, is it really really worth leaving?

Unless there's a medical reason why, that's not a marriage. That's two roommates.

You know what, sex is REALLY important in a marriage. It just dammit is. If it weren't, I doubt this infidelity shit would hurt this deeply.

Great post, and yes, I agree. And it's important for a lot of reasons, but, with this issue in particular, it's important because it's the only thing that's really exclusive to the marriage. You can go to the opera alone, you can't give yourself oral sex (well, at least I can't). Absolutely everything else above marriage, even love (for family, as an example) can be found outside of it except for sex.

Which leads me to..

Sex is great, but one can live without it. If the marriage is happy in every other way, is it really really worth leaving? You may get a partner who gives you hot sex, but doesn't pay any bills or clean or give a shit about your feelings.

Yes, it's worth leaving, at least to me. I suspect this will also break down on gender lines, but sex is the just too "special" to me to deal with "2nd best" for the rest of my life. Not gonna happen. I don't need anyone to help with the bills, I can pay someone to clean or do it myself, and if I need someone to care about my feelings, I can call my brother/friends/family or pay someone to act like they care (psych). Sex, nope, no options there. It's either from the W or its not at all. And for me, that would absolutely make it worth leaving, even if everything else was "good" after an A.

This analogy came to mind: Having children.

You wanted children but hubby never wanted them and put you off for years. Always some excuse.

Then you find that he's been having an affair, and that he willingly agreed to have an OC with the mistress.

But the affair went bust, he's back and you are trying to work it out. You bring up your emotional need for children again. He's not interested. He says it's nothing special about her. It was a time of craziness. He wishes he hadn't gotten her pregnant, that it was a mistake, and it's something he doesn't want. He knows you want it though, and there's that OC there forever.

Now. You can live without having children. And it will indeed result in a huge effort on his part if he agrees.

Now, is it reasonable for the BW to demand a child?

Followup: The child analogy hit's the emotional needs box pretty accurately for me at least. But I would suggest that it is a perhaps a much bigger thing to ask than regular passionate sex. A lifetime emotional and financial commitment.

Still, should the BW stick to her guns and either get the child or divorce and find someone else?

My final thoughts. I rather have money than wild sex. My wife now is probably considered normal. Our sex life is frequent but no where what it was with him. She was the aggressor, going to his house 3/4 times a week. Our normal is probably weekly.

I will take what a lot of people consider normal instead of losing everything I have and trying to start over at my age. Would I like her to be what I think she was with him, yes. Am I willing to lose everything if she is not , No. It's just not worth it.

My wife tells me sex with him was nothing special but everytime I ask her why she acted like she did, she says because it was new. I was the only person she had ever been with. I do remember when I first found out, we were fighting and my wife made some very hurtful comments. When I was trying to find out what made this guy so special that she did it after guys always hitting on her and her not doing anything, she states that she knows he's younger than me ( he was in his late 30"s and I was in my early 50"s ) but that he lasted a lot longer. When I asked her how long, she just kept saying a long time. When I was throwing out numbers she would only laugh. I would say 10 minutes, she would say no, I would say 15, 20 ,25 and finally she said try over 30. I looked at her and said, he bangs you full out for 30 minutes none stop and she said yes. When I saked her what she did while this was going on, she responded that she just lied there and came 2 or 3 times. I immediately left the room and told her she should stay with him because I know no one who can do that full speed for a half hour. Now she says she only said that to shut me up because we were arguing, but who cares. I also realize that when a guy is getting it almost daily while the other guy is getting it every six months, the daily guy of course is going to last longer. He probably got laid more times in that 4 month period than I did in 4 years. But what can you do. my wife is usually a one and done, by that I mean , once she orgasms she doesn't even like to be touched. When we do do it, she gets very excited, in fact she usually last only a few minutes and orgasms. She tells me that she now realizes how much she loves me and how special she thinks it is with us but me, I just keep thinking of what she said. In fact, the asshole in me often asked her if she was thinking of him that made her cum so quick. Needless to say, that doesn't go over very well.

[This message edited by 99lawdog99 at 12:22 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

Now, is it reasonable for the BW to demand a child?

If your asking me, of course it's reasonable. In fact, it's almost insulting that the BW in this situation would have to ask; it would just be implied at that point, in my eyes, that they are going to try to get pregnant because she always wanted it and the H was willing to do it with the OW. I'd be appalled at any answer other than "Of course" if the question were even broached. And I think that most of us here would say the same thing, if we even got past the reflexive answer of "this man is a complete boar, you need to leave him".

And it will indeed result in a huge effort on his part if he agrees.

A dramatically more life altering and significant effort than some BJs or anal sex, that's for sure! And guaranteed to hurt the woman far more than either of those acts will (physically).

Now, is it reasonable for the BW to demand a child?

Yep, and if the WS still doesn’t want to, then the BS has the option to divorce.

**Edited because I thought the question was “is it UNreasonable for the BW to demand a child” - I changed the nope to a yep to correct and clarify that.**

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:18 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

Nope, and if the WS still doesn't want to, then the BS has the option to divorce.

In my view most of this discussion, at its core, is not rhetorical or hypothetical. It is practical. But, that then requires a practical action if it is a deal breaker.

I would change only one word of your response. I would change "Nope" to "Yep". Of course a BS has every right to demand whatever it is that they need to stay in the M.

However, of course, if the WS says no, then the demand is just words. No power. So what then? As you noted, if your WS won't give you what you believe you deserve (i.e., what they gave the OP), then the only practical outcome is to leave. Call it quits. Get a D.

You can demand all you want, if the WS does not accommodate your demands what are you left with? Whining about it for the rest of your years, or get out.

So, I say, demand away. Make clear to your WS whatever it is, sex or otherwise that you need, but just make sure you have an exit strategy when they make their decision about meeting your demands or saying, not gonna happen.

My first time jumping in on a thread about WW sex. Please be gentle with me, and by no means am I trying to offend anyone. I like what Bigger had to say a few posts back. It's communication. Why should anyone beat around the bush (ha!) with their wife or husband when it comes to their needs? And it's not only their sexual needs, it's everything under the sun that you want or need, and then a compromise (hopefully) is figured out and it is something you both can live with. Isn't the lack of communication one of the biggest things that got all of us here? That we couldn't speak to our spouses anymore? And isn't it sad that the one person you couldn't wait to see and speak to when you were falling in love with them becomes someone that you can't converse with? Maybe it is sitting each other down and asking them what turns them on, what they would be willing to do and not do, what you REALLY need for them to do, and vice versa, and then well, plan for that?? I know it isn't spontaneous like you want, but I know for me, the more sex I have, the easier it gets and the more I want it. So, maybe it is agreeing to a certain time frame to have sex (kinda like getting back on the horse after being thrown off) the kind of sex you want, for the end goal of being spontaneous and porn star sex gods like you want? And if it is anal or whatever you need/want, and the other person isn't into it, is it out of bounds to ask to try it out a few different times/ways to see if you actually do like it?

Lastly, and I am guilty of this right now, shouldn't we through the course of the day, do the little things that we know the other person likes and gets turned on by? One of my husband's turn ons are stiletto heels. Not going to wear them to work in, but maybe at dinner tonight I will...peak his curiosity. And, even though he is totally not handy, if he came home and installed a new faucet in the bathroom, I would want to jump his bones. Outlining what your needs are, adding different verbal and non-verbal communication, and then giving it the old college try and just do it, may bring the results you are looking for.....

Of course, if they don't then well, I got nothing.

It's really not about the sex much of the time, it is about the sex/emotional betrayal. Some BS's need the same as the OP got not necessarily to experience supposed hot sex, but to experience what would be a confirmation for them that the WS understands how important it is, why it is important, and is eager to demonstrating that they get it in the way that the BS needs to experience it.

The BS is the one that knows how they need to be shown, the WS can either agree to show or not in that way that the BS says they need.

So I am a BW... now 54 and completely post menopausal. So I can say that biology is horrible because it certainly causes changes to the body and libido plus all the other issues like a dry vajaja. It’s almost impossible to have sex. It really affected me because I suddenly realized that now I can’t come even close to those 20 somethings.

So in our marriage before we loved having sex. After kids it became difficult and I truly was exhausted but we would definitely enjoy it when we did it. Then 10 years into the marriage he suddenly just didn’t want it and I thought it was because of my weight. Yes I was nagging but he got laid off and I was trying to keep things afloat. After that I figured the layoff affected his emotional state of being. So suddenly I’m all hot and bothered but he’s holding out on me. I lose weight and start to exercise and still nothing. Then we go on vacation and he talking about this childhood girl that’s now 23yr women who had a huge crush on him growing up. Well I find out they were chatting months before our vacation. We go camping for 2/3 weeks time on an island so it’s no getting away from her. Of course she’s all in his face and lap. He really didn’t stop and I finally said to her this is inappropriate especially since you are behaving like a slut in front of everyone but especially your boyfriend. We turns out terrible but he continued the EA for months after we got back. That killed me because he allowed everyone to see I was nothing and ignoring me the entire vacation. I didn’t know what EA were but only found out later but I kept telling him I felt as if he was cheating on me. So I did the pick me dance though I didn’t know it was called that. I lost more weight from the and tried everything to get him sexually engaged. I was in my 40s and still had lots of desire and passion. Well a month later he says he not interested. I tell him how hurt I am and he said he didn’t like being accused of having an affair because he says he didn’t have sex with her. But I said you wanna to didn’t you. So I offered to go to counseling and even a doctor because he said he just couldn’t get it up. The beginning of his ED. He has a medical condition that could cause this once his liver was failing. But guess what guys.. his liver doctor at the time said he was still doing okay. We had just found out his condition the year before. So I pleaded to us go to the doctor. He was angry at me for bringing it up. When I would initiate intimacy he would shut me down so I would ask and explain that it’s okay to see a doctor about this.. meanwhile time goes on I am celibate and my libido is still strong. I was angry at him. I told him hey I don’t have too many years left. I’m older than him. He says yeah sorry. then he moves into the office because he’s angry about me accusing him of an affair. I then find he’s still talking to the ow online. I have another breakdown the first was on our vacation. I find lots of penthouse etc. And other high school girlfriends he’s chatting with. I finally say that is it I want a divorce. He then suddenly says he’s sorry because he’s still unemployed.

He goes to the doctor to get viagra... so we had sex but he didn’t have the Passion. I understand completely what you mean. You can’t even give me the headspace you gave her.

Fast forward 5 years to the PA. We didn’t have sex anymore he had another EA with a coworker and got laid off again.. starts a new job that has the OW working in the building across from his. They ride the same bus to the park and ride. She’s 25... suddenly his ED is gone and he buys condoms at Costco. Go figure.

I was soo angry that he did everything he could for her but left me in the wind. He did have sex with me during his affair which I thought was out of the blue. But didn’t want to sleep with me. Went back to texting ow. Great I guess it was a comparison.

So was it passion for the OW that overrides the ED? Did he really have ED or low libido for me. They were so young and without getting into the details fresh and juicy.

Im sorry but even during HB I was beginning Menapause and having troubles already. My libido was strong but my body’s estrogen was quickly depleted. Then after I found out all the other lies I had no desire to be with him. And that’s me now 6 years later dry as a cactus and no libido.

Im furious that he threw away my last best years. And his passion came back during HB but quickly became blah sex. The mind movies told me I just wasn’t that 25 year old body he craved.

So I understand you and I get your WW when she says it’s biology.

I really don’t have any suggestions except that menopause can change you. But I also don’t think it should be an excuse. For me I just can’t compete with the 20 something’s.

I knew that had happened with ow2 and for me at least thinking of him doing the same for me was a mood killer, turn off, disgusting. I didn't want to share in any experience/position he had with her

DragnHeart,

Totally agree!!!

But what if your WH refused?

I will just reiterate, BH can feel 'entitled' to whatever. Doesn't mean crap, not before or after infidelity. You either divorce or live with it. Some BH will feel entitled, never get it, and divorce. Some BH will feel entitled, never get, and stay anyway for other reasons. Some will feel entitled and get it just exactly how they want it for 40 years! 2% of those who feel entitled. Guess you'll have to decide about divorce if 6, 8, 10 years of porn star sex isn't good enough when she hits menopause and can no longer perform for you.