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I guess the reason I keep bringing up divorce is that this thread feels like a BH Christmas list. I mean, you can ask, demand, feel entitled all day. If she shops off your list, great for you guys. If not, no whiners allowed in marriage; have firm boundaries. Decide what's important in your M and move on one way or the other. Redhorse is gonna evaluate the situation and make his own decision.

And don't say, "But she cheated and I let her stay!" Apparently because to you the gift of R is getting everything off your Christmas wish list. If she can't or won't shop from the list, oh well. Even if she shopped for OM off his list 15 years earlier for 6 weeks of her life, it does not even come close to meaning she will be your jeannie in a bottle forever. And then you will make the same choice that all other married people make: am I upset enough to jump ship? That is and will always be an individual call. It is our only option when we cannot deal with our situation.

I get the impression BH feel that in accepting R, her choice was already made: a lifetime of performing. Waywards often fall short. And betrayed spouses often bail on R if it is not making them happy. Period.

But nobody can make anyone do anything, not in any healthy relationship--those with infidelity or those without. You didn't buy your WW's body when you agreed to R. She still owns her body and can say No. And you can divorce her over it. Then you can marry a new woman with no infidelity and eventually end up with the same menopausal lack of sex. If you say it's worth it because of the lack of head games with the new woman, I do believe you.

I think the problems come when spouses do not draw firm boundaries and instead whine, control, complain, act out, or even cheat to get their spouse's attention. Just no.

If R falls short, please be clear but firm about divorce. And then follow through. Or do a hard 180. But please, have boundaries.

A lack of good boundaries and clear communication is what got us all here in the first place.

DragnHeart,

Totally agree!!!

But what if your WH refused?

To be honest I never really wanted him to go back down on me after I found out he did that with ow2. Shit I couldn't stand the thought of kissing him let alone sex or anything else...I didn't want him to touch me period. In the words of the daughter in the movie Signs "it's contaminated" lmao

When he said he wanted another baby I was a frigging mess just allowing sex without a condom. Took months. Of course I now have adorable three year old twins so worth it but still, it was hard for me.

If WH never wanted to go down on me again I'd be ok with that. There's plenty of other things he can and will do to get me off, make me feel loved etc. It doesn't boil down to o e thing, sexual or not, for me.

I would like to say that I empathize with the BH's but really, as much as we all hurt I can't understand the idea of upping the ap, or demanding anything knowing that the wayward is doing it out of obligation instead of wanting to do it.

If WH didn't want to go NC, didn't want to change jobs, didn't want to give me full disclosure, access to his phone, social media whatever, I know where I stand. In that case I would have D. But not just because of o e thing but all of it.

Also did any of the BH's bring up the lack of sex stuff before the Affair? Did you try to talk to your wife about what you felt you were lacking, did you try to get help in MC?

But of course, for any other topic the wayward must work their asses off for the gift of R, and be thankful,for the chance.

the wayward must work their asses off

I don't understand this 'must.' You can be clear with your WW, but if she refuses then that's that. I can say that I would not call her unremorseful, especially if it's years later and things were initially good.

Would you call her eventual reduced sexual participation evidence of being unremorseful? I would not. I would simply say that R did not work out for you two.

And because I believe that many men find divorce especially cruel, I think men might go ballistic on a fWW for "making him" divorce her just to get better sex. And that is where this whole thing gets wacky.

Provided she did give passionate, loving, generous sex post dday and during R, her inability to maintain that over the longhaul would not be in any way a slam to her efforts or remorse level, at least to me. It's just a marriage that didn't work and an H that had a solid boundary. What more can we do in life?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:30 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

owningitnow,

or you can dump the cheating whore and find some good, moral and ethical person who can rock your world like a rockstar, which is why I almost always recommend divorcing a cheat. Both women and men. Greener grass on the other side most of the time.

I stand by the opinion that if one cheats and also does things for the AP that they didn't do and won't do for the betrayed, it's automatic divorce.

You are right that no one owns anyone but who in their right mind would endure an affair and then be cuckolded like that by getting vanilla sex while the AP got everything ?

BTW, I would rather be with someone who has no history of infidelity instead of giving a cheat a second chance.

In the end, I disagree with you. If someone gives the gift of reconciliation, they are and should be owed something as the cheat violated their marital contract and caused someone irreparable harm.

I agree, Western. Divorce is perfectly understandable once you see you've married a cheating whore. You do not owe reconciliation to anyone after such a betrayal.

and my thoughts go for both men and women.

If I cheated, which I never have or will, and my wife took me back, I would be so grateful that I would do anything for her, but I certainly would not give her a shit attitude that so many waywards do

If someone gives the gift of reconciliation, they are and should be owed something as the cheat violated their marital contract and caused someone irreparable harm.

Fair enough.

But there are no guarantees. That's what infidelity taught us in the first place, right?

Western, I believe your anger is

First, that you even have to tolerate marriage to a cheater to keep your married life,

And second, that you still might have to divorce her when she doesn't come through on the lifetime of grateful sex, and you still have to start over?

I get it.

But that's how it is.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:36 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

This thread, and the other, have been eye-opening to me. If there ever was a reason to describe a relationship as "It's complicated", post-infidelity is it.

I know that it's not possible to find a one-size-fits-all (or even -most) generalization, but it seems to me that after a spouse has been unfaithful, it is simply not comparable to other types of hurt, because inherent to betrayal is the deliberate harm caused to the betrayed party because of the deceptive actions made by the unfaithful party (and associated party pals), There's a meme that goes something like, "The saddest thing about betrayal is that it never comes from your enemies." And of course, in M, it comes from the one person on the planet that you (should be able to) trust implicitly to have your back. Three years later for me, and it's incomprehensible still.

I think there is also an inherent truth that each person has a right to say what to do with their own body. So hearing a BS (often a BH) say that they're owed sex (like in the A), or that they demand it, or some other wording that implies lack of choice on the part of the WS (usually WW) feels like a power play - like it's a shocking and profound disrespect of another person's humanity.

And it is, except...isn't an A the same thing to the BS? At every angle, it's cruel. At every angle, it's not just stripping us of our ability to make decisions based on the truth of our M, but it absolutely decimates at least a portion of our M narrative - our story - what we thought was true, but we learned later was something entirely, and heartbreakingly different than what we believed. So many of us, when we look at a photo from during the A, flash to what we thought we knew, and then what was really happening. And it is so hard to explain just how damaging this is; I mean, it sounds kinda bad, but until you've experienced it, I think it's impossible to comprehend the devastation it brings.

I am hearing from the men that they do understand that post-menopausal women can have lower libidos. As someone who has had a low libido in much of our early M, I didn't realize the importance of sex in a marriage, but then, I know I wanted sex, too...but with someone who wanted me. And too often, I was certain that my husband did not. I'm not hearing that that's the case from the BHs here - it sounds like you're all saying you wanted your wives, and that you made sure they knew it...and yet they did not care.

In the other thread, I think I mentioned that there is a nuanced difference between your wife knowing you want to have sex (with her since she's there), and your wife knowing you want to have sex with her. (I'm not talking about choreplay, FTR. I actually mean that you tried to reach out to her - that connect, not just sexually but also in other ways, with her.)

I think Bigger is right that a big part of the problem is a lack of communication, but I know that my H brought up sex and I did shut him down. I also know that I talked to him often about our lack of connection everywhere else. We did make the effort to communicate but we weren't hearing each other because we were too focused on what we were trying to say, and not also making enough of an effort to understand our partner.

But in an A? It sounds like all the 'life' stuff - jobs, kids, bills, chores, etc. - don't exist in that world, and the two people do prioritize ...well, not each other, precisely, but each person using the other person to feel better about him or herself. Except that on the outside looking in, it sure looks like they DID prioritize the other one. I am not sure there's a way to bridge the two sides, because it is so fundamentally tied to the ability for one side to compartmentalize reality from fantasy, and integrity from betrayal, and the other side, where we just can't step outside of reality to even conceive of betraying our spouse because it would be wrong to do so - wrong to betray them, and wrong to betray our own moral code.

On my side of things, my WH wanted porn sex with a porn 'star' (not a star, but she was in a porn flick). If he were to ask for the same from me? I'd be gone. I might feel differently, though, if I'd wanted that all along and he'd been unwilling. Or not - I think it all makes me angry and sad. For me, the sex mattered, but what I feel like we've lost is the specialness of our sex. Whether he gave more or less, the point is, he gave any of it away at all.

In R, though, I think it does matter what the WS "gave" the ACC as much as what he or she didn't give them. Ironically, the only position my WH didn't have sex with the OW was the missionary position. Yay, that's still all mine, right? But you know what isn't? Every time we do another position, I think of him with the OW. EVERY 🤬 time.

And there's one I can't do. I just...can't. It's like...it's not mine and never will be, never can be. I can't explain it. But I think I'd be upset if he didn't offer it. And I think I'd be very hurt if I felt he wasn't giving more to our R than than he did to the A.

If I am understanding correctly, for many of the BHs here, the sex matters, but just as importantly is the WW's prioritization of the relationship - including sex. Because that's what an A feels like on the other side - like the ACC mattered most of all. And we wonder, why don't we matter enough now to make that kind of effort? And why isn't the WS making it a priority to understand and respect the things that matter to the BS? Why aren't they showing that they WANT to connect, including sexually?

From a BW's POV, low libido is real, and hearing a man imply that a woman doesn't deserve for that to matter feels like a call to arms. What I think you're saying, though, is why isn't the WS seeing that this is important enough to make an effort to address in a way that the BS's needs are addressed, too. And as a corollary, it is absolutely just as fair to say that a high libido deserves just as much respect as a low libido. The challenge and the goal is for both partners to respect the other enough to find a way to meet somewhere in a middle area where they both feel safe and loved.

Because I agree with Dee - it is important! It still hurts remembering how my H didn't see me enough to realize that non-sexual intimacy was important to me, just as I'm sad that I didn't realize just how hurtful it was to my H when I didn't want sex. And for that latter part, I have the BHs here to thank for allowing me to see how damaging that was to him.

I agree completely about the right to divorce.

I also agree that there are no guarantees. Ever. Some of these stories are incredibly sorrowful and shocking

Third, yes, I find it hard to fathom tolerating a cheater to maintain a married life

I guess I am a traditionalist, Owningit, and I agree with much of what you just said over the last few posts. The traditionalist in me simply thinks that one should give their spouse their best, which includes sexually. And if they didn't do that and are given a second chance in the form of R, I think it would be respectful and wise to do. Failure to do so shouldn't result in forcing or abusing or pressuring anyone into anything.

As you said, there is a reason divorce exists.

Therefore, I think we are kind of on the same page

I think that the BH feelings on this thread revolve around the intolerable thought that they may still have to get a divorce--which (from my research) men find more jarring than women--after allowing their 'cuckholding' in the first place. Yes? So the idea that a wife would fall short in the sex department after you have sucked up your manhood in the first place, to basically keep your intact family and life, is more than you can bear to imagine. Now you are expected to give up your family and life AS WELL AS THE EGO you already lost, just to get the sex she should want to give freely as appreciation?

I don't think women deal with this, I really don't.

There is not this feeling (for me) that my H is gonna give me something special, some compensation because of his cheating.

Hmmmm.

I am not disrespecting men for feeling this. But it changes things. At least for me. I don't dread divorce OR expect compensation, so I can see how a reconciling BH feels differently than me.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:48 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

And for that latter part, I have the BHs here to thank for allowing me to see how damaging that was to him.

I agree, BlueIris.

But there are no guarantees. That's what infidelity taught us in the first place, right?

Yes, that's true, but, offering or not offering something to your BS after an A is a guarantee. You can do it, I can do it, my W can do it.

We get all up in our heads and ethereal about this stuff; it's really not that hard. Do it or don't. Just don't expect to say if you don't. Doing it doesn't mean your forced or raped, or that your H or W is a bad person, and leaving doesn't mean you're weak or wrong to do so (and neither excuses the A). But, and this is where I take issue, staying, "doing what you can to heal the BS" and NOT trying to restore the sexual connection? That's half-assing it, or, if you're like me and other men who often post on these threads, "no-assing it". Don't even bother. Because you might as well still be sleeping with the AP but saying "I want to R", your actions, in my eyes, are just totally incongruent with your words. And I'm going to believe your actions (and suggest to any BS who will listen they do the same).

Can I promise R? Can I promise my W won't cheat again? Can I promise I won't have an RA? No to all of them. But does that mean that we shouldn't give it our all? Or does the lack of certainty mean I might as well give up, and besides, it's easier and I don't have to do anything I feel compelled to do that I did with the AP.. If that's any WS's attitude, my plea, stop jerking your BS around and just leave, because, be it opera, mowing the lawn, anal sex, or anything else; you just don't feel the same way about them that you did the AP. Would those feelings for the AP fade? Oh yeah, you bet they would, they are probably totally gone for most of the people posting here, replaced by hate and anger. But it doesn't matter, at that point in time, you "loved" the AP more than you love your BS today. The man/woman who stood by you, put up with the most painful blow a lover can deal, provided for you, made a home for you, bore your children..

No, no no. I know it's harsh, but, I'm sorry, that's not gonna fly for me, BW or BH; either the WS is "all in" or they are out. And yes, for women, that often means kinky/more sex, ALWAYS, IMHO, if they did it with the AP. And yes, for the man, that probably means more chores, post-nups, less sex, etc. Too f-ing bad. You made this bed, lie in it. This "special snowflake" women thing; happy to have anal with her AP with 30 seconds notice, denying her husband for decades, nope, that just doesn't work for me... And I can't imagine who it would work for; which is probably the only valuable message this tirade might get across. If you're BS, man or woman, isn't going to be treated as well, whatever that means to THEM as the AP, and/or you can't see yourself maintaining that level of treatment for another person indefinitely, file. Because, that's the bare minimum, it really is.

I know it's harsh, but, I'm sorry, that's not gonna fly for me, BW or BH; either the WS is "all in" or they are out.

Who are you talking to in this, Rideitout? Random disagreeing strangers? All WW who want R? Where do we write these rules of R that you want? (No snark, asking how people would know to feel this way or do these things.)

Also, what are your thoughts on a WW who says, "Yes, honey--that's me!" And then changes three years later?

And what are your thoughts on having to divorce her then?

different people place different values on different things. Some focus on the physical, some the emotional.

To me, and most of the men I know, they couldn't get over the infidelity which is why the vast majority of them are divorced. However, almost everyone who has endured what lawdawg and the Op in this thread did, they agree that the OM getting their wife's best made a huge part in their decision to not reconcile.

Finally, I don't refer to it as 'ego' or 'sucking up manhood'. I refer to it as many men are married in relationships that provide average sex at best and if anyone is entitled to the best (and only) sex their wives can give, it is their husbands.

I am one who, if I had decided to eat the shit sandwich known as reconciliation, (shit sandwich because one who is reconciling had to endure being cheated on) that I would expect special compensation.

BTW, I just asked my wife (she is not the cheat by the way, it was my first one) and she agrees 100% with me.

The bottom line to me is the cheat screwed up and should owe the betrayed their very best. To me that goes without saying and after seeing so many men on this thread and other threads get vanilla sex, then get cheated on with their wives giving the Om the best, just to reconcile and get vanilla sex again, I feel that it is disgusting.

Sex isn't everything but it is very important and does mean a lot. It means a lot to many men and it is just inherently wrong when the husband wants more out of a sexual relationship with their wives just to get turned down over and over again and then in the end, have their wives give it for free to some asshat. Then after doing them a favor and reconciled, you get vanilla again. Very wrong. That's like getting paid $20 an hour by your boss, who then brings in someone who is worse than you $50 an hour, then when you have to fix the screw-ups, you are back to $20 again.

Again, what you call ego and manhood, I call respect and what is deserved. In the end, someone was wronged here and it wasn't the wayward.

So because I never would want to deal with this, I wouldn't have to because I would be divorced.

I agree that divorce is more jarring for men because they get hit harder financially and often times have their kids pulled from them.

[This message edited by Western at 2:11 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

I agree Rideitout completely

Who are you talking to in this, Rideitout? Random disagreeing strangers? All WW who want R? Where do we write these rules of R that you want? (No snark, asking how people would know to feel this way or do these things.)

The various posters across many threads who, in so many words, say "A BS has the right to expect all kinds of things from their WS, except sex, that's exempted".

Where do we write these rules of R that you want?

I suggest a sticky. :) It's a simple rule, "If you did something sexual, financial, emotional, or physical for the AP that you have denied your BS and you don't want to ever do it, whatever it is, with your BS, you should probably leave. You should definitely leave if you know that thing, whatever is it, was very important to your BS before D-day and you'd denied it to them repeatedly, but then did it with the AP".

Also, what are your thoughts on a WW who says, "Yes, honey--that's me!" And then changes three years later?

I hesitate to wade into this one because we're really talking corner cases here, but in general, if it is something that's physically impossible, of course, I think it's off the table. Using my silly analogy from before, the husband who tends his AP's lawn until it's an award winning display but neglects his wife's, even though it's important to her. Let's say said husband 2 years out in R is in an accident and confined to a wheelchair. He's obviously not going to be out there making a beautiful lawn for his W anymore. Should she D him? No, IMHO, because he's just incapable of doing what she asks. Now, let's take the counterpoint, same H develops a minor back problem, mowing the lawn becomes slightly uncomfortable for him. He lets the lawn go to crap; same as the first example. Should she D him? Yes, IMHO.

The litmus test I use; would he do it for the AP? Would the AP be enough to take a few asprin and mow the lawn? In the 2nd case, yes, she probably would be. He's unwilling to do that for his W, and that tells me what I need to know to make my "D" suggestion. In the first case, no amount of asprin or wanting is going to make him able to mow the lawn again after his accident, so, no, I don't think his W should D him, he's doing what he can. I do think, in this silly example, that the H in the wheelchair should do what he can to help the wife care for her lawn in his reduced capacity though; just because he can't do it anymore doesn't mean that she no longer wants a nice lawn. So maybe he sits out with her and looks over it, maybe he talks to her about it, realizes it's important to her and helps her get over the fact that he physically can't do it anymore, which, of course, is going to hurt her, especially when she thinks back on the A and year "wasted" of having a crappy lawn that are gone forever.

No, I'm not suggesting that menopausal wives get hookers for their BH's. I am suggesting that there are other things that can be done; the vagina isn't the end all be all of sexual fulfillment for men. Putting a fine point on it, a WW who hits menopause shortly after the A blows up, and then says "I just don't feel like it, not in the mood, dry as dust" and doesn't offer a BJ, HJ, anal or just a lubricant; that's like my example of the guy with a minor back problem, you're just not trying. Just like a WH who refuses to take viagra (assuming sex is important to his W) or give his wife oral sex is just not trying. And, most importantly, we all know, that same WH would be more than happy to go down on the AP and suck down a bottle of Viagra and stick a needle in his penis to sleep with her.

very well put Rideitout.

There wasn't a single point that I disagreed with. You batted 1000 on that last response