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leafields, your statement:

Not to say that the theory is morally right, but there is something they're calling "genetic sexual attraction" for siblings who meet as adults.

is very true. Seems to me like there's a short-circuit, bzzzt! kind of thing with the normal familial attachment mechanism when genetically similar people grow up apart from one another, with no interaction.

As far as anecdotal evidence (people throwing out stories singly), well, there's a reason that scientists throw out anecdotal evidence except for using as a basis for a larger study. Societal norms grow as guides to individuals in a society. The fact that there needs to _be_ a societal norm against a particular thing shows that individuals do do the thing that there's a norm against. The fact that there are individual words to describe something, even famous stories about it (Oedipus, anyone?) show that it happens frequently enough to make coining a word for it a thing to do.

So, yes. Your WH met someone six months ago and it rapidly progressed into an A. That's enough right there.

What the A does indicate is that your WH's coping mechanisms are screwed up. The answer to coping with any particular situation is not, as he's found out, "Have an A!"

Usually it takes time for the W(andering)S(pouse), male or female, to pull their heads out of their nether regions. The same screwed-up thinking that allowed an A to proceed from events and seem like a good idea hangs around for a while. Sort of like a visual after-image, where an image that you see hangs around for a while (making movies possible).

One of the things that a lot of folks realize after the initial shock of the A wears off is this: The sex isn't as bad as the lies, and especially continued lies, that come after. The betrayal of the person that was supposed to have your back, their actual plotting to deceive you and keep the deceit going, after a while that's what really hurts.

In that vein, how is your WH doing in that regard? When answering, do consider:

blameshifting - where the WS tries to blame you somehow for their choice to have an A

gaslighting - from the play, Gaslight, where the WS tries to convince you that what you saw, heard, or experienced didn't happen

rugsweeping - "Let's put it behind us, under the rug!" Thing swept under the rug grow big, ugly fangs and sharp, rending claws and come out years later, with a vengeance.

Good luck to you. Have a fist-bump, sister in adversity }{

edited: Sigh, English is hard.

[This message edited by devotedman at 8:01 AM, April 22nd, 2018 (Sunday)]

Thanks for the advice. Reading through The Healing Library. I told WH that his A was SICK & he had to do IC for THAT before I'd consider MC.

Asked him, "Why?" & his answer...wait for it... was "I don't know." (Sound familiar?) I told him that was BS & he was lying to me.

He doesn't like confrontation or saying no. He said she suggested & he said no, but she pushed. (I called him out on that, too.) From what I found on his phone, he was a full participant.

Having some problems sleeping, so will try some Valerian Root or benadryl. Melatonin keeps me groggy the next morning. I've been hibernating and not wanting to deal with people but going to start going back to the gym.

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[This message edited by leafields at 7:04 PM, April 25th (Wednesday)]

Finding the “why” is a process - often a difficult one requiring therapy and you may have touched on one factor - he’s conflict avoidant - meets his long lost family member - wants to be liked by the new family....accepted - and this is part of it. The whys our WS (WAYWARD spouses) uncover never EXCUSE the betrayal. It identifies the mechanisms and faulty thinking that allowed it to occur - this way they can identify the origins of this thinking, recognize when it is happening and begin to consciously choose other behaviours that are healthy and integrity based. With enough practice, the new behaviour or coping mechanism will become their preset.

I highly doubt MC would be equipped to deal with the psychological processes going on with your WH. He needs individual therapy and it would be a good idea for you as well. You have a lot to process and a good IC can guide you through it. MC can come later after some healing has occurred.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:57 AM, April 22nd (Sunday)]

leafields, I'm not trying to sugar-coat anything nor am I trying to make you feel better with this next statement: You seem to have your shit together. The tone of your posts are quite different from mine when I started posting in JFO. I was a complete mess, you seem to be taking this all rather more centeredly(?) than I did. I'm adjusting my what-advice-does-she-need-now meter, hope I get it right.

Humans have goals and we use strategies to get to them. We have a thing called a "personal narrative" (you can google that) that is, basically, our story of our lives to ourselves to explain how we got here. Having your personal narrative broken, or shown to be based on someone else's lies (a betrayal) is a mentally painful thing. As you are no doubt experiencing. We have another thing called "agency", which is best described as deciding what to do and how to do it based upon having the most complete information possible about a situation. Your WH took your agency when he started lying to you, and having your agency intentionally stolen is another betrayal that also causes mental pain.

Here on SI we have a generally agreed upon common goal of "Getting out of infidelity." That doesn't mean the site favors D over R, nor does it exactly mean get away from cheating, although that's part of it. Getting out of infidelity is more about changing to live authentically and, if your WH can't change to live authentically so that you can both "get out of infidelity (betrayal)" _then_ we take that as a pretty clear reason to D instead of R.

I hope that you take this next bit of my post as the helpful, gentle, constructive, criticism that I intend it to be. Take a deep breath and be open to genuinely _thinking_ about the situation that you're in. Here we go.

I understand fully that you're hurt and mad and angry and betrayed and that you love who your WH was and that you're confused and sad and, and, and... That's The Emotional Rollercoaster. You'll feel like a rider on the wildest emotional ride that you've ever experienced and you'll also likely feel crazy and that's okay, we've all done it. It gets better with time and self-care.

With that said, I'll quote you:

He doesn't like confrontation or saying no.

I'm taking this as a given, then. No questions about it. Lots of people like to avoid confrontation and most people try to give answers that seem to be what the questioner wants to hear. People also blameshift to feel better about themselves.

I told WH that his A was SICK & he had to do IC for THAT before I'd consider MC.

Remember the goals and strategies mention, above in this post? What was your goal that you chose this communication strategy with him? To hurt him? To relieve your hurt? To convey information? To extract information?

The way we communicate shapes the receiver's reply. If I say to you, "That's sick!", that's different than, "There're a societal norm against cheating and incest" and both are different than your question of, "Why?"

If he's conflict avoidant then making these sorts of emotional, judgment-laden statements is a good way to shut him down. You might even have wanted that, you might have needed to get it off of your chest. You can heap shame upon him -but- shame is a very selfish, personally-grounded response. I think there are youtube videos from Brene Brown about shame that are pretty good.

In general, making statements about someone's behavior shuts them down. Asking questions is a good strategy if your goal is to extract information. Keep asking, "why", "how", "who", "what", "when", "where" questions to keep the conversation going.

If you can even stand to have a conversation right now, I get it.

BTW, an aside almost, item 11 in the BS FAQ in The Healing Library is The 180. You can use it to distance yourself a bit from the situation to think more clearly -and- using it will shake up the WS because they'll see that they're losing control of the situation. Watch their reactions to The 180, they'll often use methods to try to gain back control of the situation.

Asked him, "Why?" & his answer...wait for it... was "I don't know." (Sound familiar?) I told him that was BS & he was lying to me.

What was your goal? To test what the answer to be? To genuinely extract his "why"?

His answer, "I don't know," was likely very true for him right at the moment. I also noted that he tried to blameshift his behavior onto her, which reveals another problem that he has:

Boundaries. He has poor boundaries in his interactions with other people. Conflict avoiders are often like that. His "not saying, 'No'" likely gets him into trouble. Good boundaries are more like:

Random Woman: Hey, you're cute.

devotedman: Thanks.

RW: Let's get together some time, honey!

dm: Let's not and say we didn't. (Then leaves.)

Back to goals and strategies. His first "whys" are going to be very simple and very wrong. Here's why: You know how something lost is always in the last place you look? That's because _you_ _stop_ _looking_ once you've found it. Answers are like that, too, in that _we_ _stop_ _looking_ once we find the first answer that satisfies our mindset.

Taking that and the boundaries (above), if your conversational goal was to extract information and your strategy was asking questions you might get something more like:

mrs. lf: Why?

mr. lf: I don't know. She wanted to.

mrs. lf: Did you say No? (forget the "I don't know", conversational filler and a diversion, a deflection, a try to get the conversation to stop even if it pisses you off, maybe especially if it pisses you off and you leave him alone. Goals can be very short-sighted.)

mr. lf: She pushed me.

mrs. lf: Did you say no?

mr. lf: Yes. (a deflection, and an attempt to guess what answer will satisfy the questioner and cause the difficult conversation to end. His goals are different than yours.)

mrs. lf: Obviously not or we would not be having this conversation. We'd be having the conversation where you told me about it and then we had another coffee, but instead we're having _this_ conversation. Why did you say Yes?

mr. lf: ...

Granted, this conversation is made up in my head, but (and this might be one of those "buts" that makes everything I say next okay) I did it to illustrate some principles. If you want the deeper conversation then keep asking the "what, how, when, why, where" questions and point out the logical inconsistencies.

I realize that you might not be emotionally ready for those sorts of conversations, yet.

leafields, are you having any specific emotional reactions that we can help with, right now? Don't forget to exercise, it works off stress and pent-up energy and releases chemicals that help you to feel better.

Do think about re-reading your thread from the start from time to time. As time passes you'll get different ideas from the posts, like watching a movie twice or three times lets you see different things in the movie.

I am not making any excuses for his behavior but one thing I know from my job is that kids who were adopted are usually desperate to find their birth families. Just like being a betrayed spouse where the thoughts never quite go away being adopted feels the same way. There are so many secrets around it. Who do I look like? Why was I given away? Do I have brothers and sisters? Are my parents still alive? So many adoptees just want to find out who they look like what their family of origin is like and then they are usually able to move on. Some of them make friends with their family members and some do not. In the case of your husband he had a sibling who had terrible boundaries. It is a phenomenon that is rare but it does happen. In his case I would imagine some deep therapy might help him come to terms with what is going on but I can tell you where his behavior came from was from feeling abandoned. If he was four years old when he was adopted then he has memories whether he can pull them up or not. He had bonded to someone by the time he was adopted so consequently he was split in half emotionally. Again, I make no excuses for his behavior but I do sympathize with what he felt like all his life

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 2:21 PM, April 22nd (Sunday)]

You know, I don't believe you really don't need a therapist to tell you why most people cheat. They'll give you some psycho-babble reason like "FOO" issues or some other nonsense about being neglected or abused or bullied as a child, but the plain and simple truth is that most cheaters do it because they WANT to and because they CAN. And because the opportunity presented itself and the lure of fun, excitement and sexual variety overrode any objections they may have had to breaking their vows.

And sometimes they do it simply because they choose NOT to resist temptation when an opportunity arises.

It's not rocket science.

But then again, your husband has already cheated at least once (and likely more that you don't know about) so he's a pro at it. Once they cross that line, it's so much easier for them to do it again and again.

I think it's a load of bull trying to use all kinds of nonsense excuses for what amounts to nothing more than selfish behavior and the inability to resist temptation. It's not always some deep, dark, psychotic reason for why they do it.

And you've got yourself a repeat offender, someone who obviously has no problem stepping over the line - because he wants to. I was married to a serial cheater JUST like your husband - he didn't care who it was if it meant he was going to get himself some action.

While this incestuous thing adds a huge layer of repulsiveness to the situation, the truth is, you've got yourself a serial cheater who'll pretty much cross any line - and has proved that loud and clear with his his latest stunt.

This likely won't be the last time he crosses the line. And I will say, we almost never catch them every time they cheat. While you know of two times, I'm willing to bet you've only scratched the surface.

I'd make a polygraph an absolute requirement for you to even consider reconciling with someone like this. But be on guard, you're not going to like what you'll probably find out because I think there are a lot of things he's gotten away with aside from the two affairs you know about.

NoMercy:

He had an affair with somebody he met about 6 months ago. Does the fact that it's a sibling make much difference?

I think leafields is saying he had an affair with a woman he met 6 months ago and she happened to be his sister...she’s asking us to focus on the affair and not the social norm. I don’t think she’s saying he’s had a previous affair - therefore he’s not a serial cheater.

My husband’s “thing”was so long ago that I don’t think about it too often so I can’t give you info on grief. I can discuss being pissed off but that is about it. I usually agree with NoMercy but this time I hope you “get” that his affair really is different. No, it is still cheating and that stinks, but he probably yearned for his lost family so much that his ideas of right and wrong flew out the window. If he is back to reality he can get his head out of his a** and get some intense therapy. He needs to grieve that stolen little boy. I worked with a man this happened to and he never got over it because he never got therapy. Your husband desperately needs it. I am not an expert on much but on this I am.

Thank you for the input & the tip about re-reading them. I know that I'm still processing all of it. The constructive criticism has been helpful.

How are you doing today, leafields?

I re-read my last advice and I made a mistake in not mentioning that you're probably so angry and disgusted with him right now, along with loving him and all the rest. That's part of The Emotional Rollercoaster. You might also still be in shock from his behavior.

Anger. Anger was what I wanted to talk about, should have, and didn't. You need to let him see the anger and pain that he's caused.

He's probably building a narrative in his head that minimizes his behavior.

"Somehow," he's probably telling himself, "somehow, this is going to work out. This is going to be okay."

He's probably doing that because that's usually what people do. Cheating spouses seem to be especially prone to this. He didn't want an "exit affair." He didn't want to end the M. He simply wanted to do what he wanted to do without consideration of the effect that it would have on you if you found out.

That is a very entitled, selfish, self-indulgent, and disrespectful attitude to have. He thought that it would be okay to lie to you, for years. He thought that it would be okay to betray you.

That makes a person really, really mad. It hurts a person very, very much.

He should see some of that. He should get a taste that you are _angry_. Now, be careful that nothing that you do goes over into the mental or physical abuse category. No 1950's-TV rolling pins, no cast-iron skillets, no punching. He's betrayed the trust of you and the rest of his family, though, and he should see that.

Realizing his betrayal, realizing the consequences of it, and then working back to what kind of selfish thinking and the causes of that in him is what IC for him is for.

One more thing, he should be demonstrating that he's willing to fight for the M. He should be the one getting off of his ass and calling and finding and setting up IC appointments. He should be _doing_ instead of sitting around and waiting for you to do something.

Some books:

How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair - Linda J. MacDonald, both read it.

Not 'Just Friends' - Dr. Shirley Glass, a book about boundaries and consequences and about the difference between opening windows or doors into your private life, both read it.

Who Will You Become? - Linda J. MacDonald, a book for the WS about deciding what kind of person that they want to be.

Good morning, Devotedman.

Doing ok so far, but it's early yet. Slept better last night, but still woke up several times. We had out-of-town family visit yesterday, so I didn't get a chance to grab the Valerian root. (AP's name only came up 3 times during the day, so it was bearable.)

Your last post was so spot-on. The anger & hurt is so palpable at times, that I can't believe he doesn't recognize what he's done. But your post summarizes what I'm sure he's been thinking.

He did say that he didn't think he'd get caught, and a little later said that he didn't think about what the consequences would be. AP sent me an email to apologize & said that she didn't count the cost, either. (Whole 'nuther layer of angry there.)

Trying to be civilized during my anger peaks on this awful roller coaster is going to be a challenge, but will keep my eye on the end goal.

Appreciate the book suggestions. I started Surviving An Affair by Harley but haven't gotten far.

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[This message edited by leafields at 10:04 AM, April 23rd (Monday)]

How are things today, leafields? More importantly, how and what are you feeling?

Hopefully, you're reading a few other stories in JFO. That's something that we often suggest. It lets you see that the feelings that you're having are really pretty normal. It also gives you ideas for your own situation from reading the advice given to others.

When you're ready, when you're closer to start thinking about whether you want to D or R, you might read in the Divorce/Separation and Reconciliation forums to see what those things are like. There's also New Beginnings, which reveals some of the happiness and frustration of those who went the D route.

I want to reiterate that it is okay to take time to make some sort of decision to R or D. I would like to reiterate the advice to see a few Lawyers to talk about your legal rights in your state should you decide to D.

Seeing several different lawyers is a good idea. Different lawyers have different approaches to a problem. You want to find one that strikes you as a bulldog with their approach.

Some common advice given here in JFO is to shake up the WS by filing for D and having them served. The advantages to you filing first are that you can control the speed of the D process. Some U.S. States have a year waiting period before you can be D, some you can get D in as little as a few weeks. It, like everything else, is a process.

I re-read your original post, you don't give many details of your personal situation. Are you a SAHM mom? Do you work outside the home? If you do, does your job make you enough money to support you without your WS?

Hi Devotedman -

Was doing ok until yesterday afternoon when AP contacted me. I'd been "on her heart" & all of the anger, anguish, betrayal, hurt rushed back to me. I tried to be nice, but let her know that it would take me years to recover from this. Let her know that I never deserved what they did to me.

It did force my hand a little bit. AP & WH were planning a trip next month to go see another sister in another state. Because I've asked WH for NC, he asked me to contact AP and ask her to cancel her plans. I asked & she said she'd consider. WH has said that he'll cancel if AP won't.

Part of the anger & hurt over this trip is because during discovery, I read the texts of what they were planning during the trip.

Part of the difficulty in deciding to stay or go is trying to figure out if this is a one-time aberration & can I get past the eewww gross factor.

In early October, I was let go from a job that I'd had 14 years. Currently, I WFH as a consultant & have 2 long-term contracts. No health insurance thru work, but am covered by H. I make more than double what H makes. He has a pension, but I don't. Our long term plan was that he would take an early retirement when he can draw his pension & I'd have insurance coverage & keep working until retirement age. We took a 15-year mortgage on the house & it's now paid off. Now, I don't know if he wants me to stay because this messes up his early retirement. (His job is physically demanding & we knew that he'd have to retire early.)

My H is acknowledging that this is the worst thing that he's ever done. He doesn't understand the pain of the betrayal, but I sent him part of an article that did a good job of describing. I told him this is the tip of the iceberg for almost all day, every day & that the trauma was likely to continue. I brought up an example from this weekend. We were in the car & the Rick Astley song came on. When it came to the chorus, I quickly changed the channel. He asked if I suddenly didn't like the singer & I asked him to remember the words of the chorus. "Why would I want a man to sing that to me right now?" & started crying. I reminded him of this, and said that the A touched every aspect of my day. He may be starting to have a glimpse of the pain.

I'm reading through some of the forums & Healing Library for advice.

I really appreciate you checking up on me. Although your advice may have seemed harsh at first, there is wisdom in your words.

Your WH should read “How to Help Your Spouse Heal from your Affair” by Linda MacDonald. It’s a primer on how to navigate this and it paints an accurate picture of our distress.

leafields, first and foremost I'm sorry you are here and I can only imagine the anguish and turmoil you are feeling not only because of the affair but also the sibling relationship between your WH and the OW. I think you are doing admirably well in such difficult circumstances.

Because I've asked WH for NC, he asked me to contact AP and ask her to cancel her plans. I asked & she said she'd consider.

However, the sheer gall of this OW staggers me. You're saving her skin by not telling everyone that she's comitted incest with your husband, yet she'll only 'consider' changing her plans? Wow. The self entitlement seems strong in that one.

Thanks, Sassy - that will definitely be a book that I'll be getting. I looked at some of her books online yesterday and they seem to be very beneficial.

Sinsofthefather, this is the second email that she's sent that is showing she has no insight into the problems. She said she was searching the internet to have an idea of "what I was going through". (I won't repeat what I was thinking, but I did go outside an scream.)

My focus is to go to IC, read, eat, sleep, exercise, and find my support group. I'm planning on going back through everybody's responses & using a highlighter for the good parts.

D-man suggested seeing D lawyers to find out my options which is scary for me. When we were engaged, I told my H that divorce was not an option - but now it (unfortunately) is.

Oh - and to figure out how/when to tell the other BS because both WS & AP aren't.

There's a family reunion being planned in July and I know that we'll be going. There are some siblings that we haven't met yet that H wants to meet.

Next IC session is May 4 and this will probably be the topic of the session. Really sucks because that's the anniversary of my mom's passing 3 years ago.

Trying not to make any snap decisions but it's tough when you want to kick some people in the nether regions.

Betrayal is betrayal. This one is creepy because it was a sibling but still betrayal and should be treated as such -

No contact. None. He writes one NC letter, that is it. Too bad she is a long lost sister, but it isn't your fault.

Notify her husband, dont tell WH you are doing it.

At the reunion, NC stays in place. He doesn't speak to her. I don't know what you say if anyone asks.

You really need to see an attorney.