SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey Joel,

For a moment let’s shift the focus off of your cheating wife and onto you.

There are fundamental questions that need answers before you make the D or R decision.

Regardless of what she does or does not do from this point on....can you live with her given what she has already done?

Is being with a cheater acceptable to you?

Does your religious belief system factor into whether or not divorce is an option?

Can you stay in a marriage that will now be an continuous exercise in “recovering” and “rebuilding” for the foreseeable future?

Are you ok with playing detective off and on in the coming years?

This is why many suggest a physical and emotional separation for bit of time. You need to be able to figure out what YOU want. What YOU can and cannot accept. To get a clearer picture.

And it’s hard to do that with her around. She will be a constant trigger. She may also try to manipulate you with sex, tears, and promises. In order to salvage something, they will say anything.

Just something to consider.

Re the question on the "join me in the shower msg" Here's how Dday started. For the holiday wkend we visited a bunch of friends on the east coast. My S and I were staying at the house in the same room w/a full bath. All good. On Sunday late night (3 day visit almost over) the AP's wife suspect this was going on all day at the party as she watched them messaging back and forth. She basically guessed his instagram password and began scolling thru messages...then they the conversation deleted (I think that was my wife). But here is what the AP spouse recalls all from Sunday when we were all together at an outdoor pool.....

AP "I love the way you are looking at me"

AP "come ride this c@ck"

Spouse "lol, Im getting in the shower, come join me?"

AP "someone has to keep your husband busy"

Spouse: Lol

This isn't exact, but from the memory of the AP spouse. My wife didn't deny it. The invite wasn't real as I was staying in the room w/my wife, however, the "someone has to keep your husband busy" was while I was playing darts w/AP and my wife said she was going up to change from bathing suit and get ready for the night.

That is harsh. I'm sorry man.

Let me quote you a great line someone wrote here on SI. To the effect:

An affair is nothing more than mutual masturbation between two attention whores.

Just remember that whenever those nasty texts enter your head. Your WW did what she di for the attention and self-gratification. It had nothing to do with you in any way.

It had nothing to do with you in any way.

Maybe not directly, but it has a lot to do with how little she loves or respects him.

Beenthereinco

A hand-job is sex. There seems to be some confusion and it would help if Jeff would clarify.

Yes but when he also said that she detailed "sex positions" I assumed that he meant intercourse.

He said she fessed up to sex after OMW gave details from her H's confession.

Just a quick reminder to everyone.

The thread was started.... TODAY. 7 pages... in ONE day. Guess when his dday was??? YESTERDAY!!

This is what drives me crazy about some of the posters here. "She's not remorseful!" Of course she's not remorseful - her affair was discovered 24 hours ago! His wife may not be able to spell R-E-M-O-R-S-E just yet.

Joel... the truth of the matter is that ALL cheaters lie - for a million different reasons. To save face. To keep you from more pain. To protect their kids. To save their marriage. Or their job. Fear of exposure to friends and family. Remorse doesn't occur until the WS really understands the gravity of what they've done and make a conscious decision to right a terrible wrong. That kind of self-introspection does not come easily or quickly. To expect a cheater, upon discovery, to spin around on a dime and do all the things we discuss here on SI is unrealistic. It rarely, rarely happens.

If reconciliation is an option for you then you need to look at what is REALLY happening. Your wife is slowly telling you the truth - but it will A) take a while for it all to come out and B) you will likely never know the full story. That is simply the way it is. Some people can live with that, some people can't. The fact that you're on this message board and not posting how you've already filed implies, to me at least, that you're considering reconciliation. Are you the kind of person who can live withe the above? If not, it might be wise to save the time and energy.

If you are, then simply recognize that it is going to take you YEARS to overcome what has happened. Even then, once the shock and pain and hatred wear off it will never fully go away. It will ALWAYS be there. Can you handle that? Not everyone can.

I'm not telling you that so that you go, "Hell, I can't put up with this crap forever" but rather so that you understand what lies ahead. So that you see that 24 hours after discovery you are still in the thick of the emotional crapshoot.

It's why you take these first few days slowly. You see an attorney simply to understand your rights. Believe me, that helps a LOT. Let your wife know that you are considering divorce but you need some time to think things through. I am a believer in consequences... and having her leave the house for a bit can give you some clarity.

Reconciliation can be wonderful. I am a prime example of it. But it is not for everyone.

There is no rush.

Maybe not directly, but it has a lot to do with how little she loves or respects him.

Because she truly doesn't love or respect herself. Her actions show this.

How then can she love or respect others when she doesn't respect herself? OP has nothing to do with that flaw in her character.

Joel, my husbands’s job had us moving every two years. We lived in beautiful houses on lakes, in great neighborhoods and he traveled a lot. One year he was away for nearly a year. I saw him twice. It never occurred to me to cheat. You have provided a wonderful life for your wife. Instead of cheating she should have gotten a job. In fact I think that should be a criteria for your R

First - I've read every post today and this is so helpful. Lot's of diff opinions but I'm taking it all in, its great, and I will use as the foundation for what works for me. I tried to jot down the questions you all asked so I'll try to add clarity here: 1. I'm fit, wrestled thru college and would be no match for this guy, however, that's not my style or inline with my temper. I'm angry yes, but don't have rage in my style. I know that wouldn't help this or any situation usually. 2. She did indicate that he would say "I know u will never leave him for me, this doesn't have a future" etc. I believe that. This was his 3rd marriage, no kids of his own, handyman and a general loser in life. I mislabeled this "best friend". His wife was actually good friends with mine and that's how we met a couple years ago. The other part I didn't mention was that their M was falling apart and his wife kept calling mine for advice thru the A. Thru the A they would also visit us as least 2 nights a week to hangout and watch the NBA playoffs, have drinks etc 4. She agreed to a poly right away no questions. On Dday she said she will do anything to fix this, poly, IC, STD, full control of phone etc. Remember tho, on Dday she said no sex, he came clean to his wife so once I found that out, she did too. I asked about why all of the trickle of lies, she said she knows that they only hurt me more. I explained the stages of infidelity and why the full truth is so important to start the healing. 5. Already sent her the Linda McD book and she downloaded it to her phone. 6. DNA for the kids. They are certainly mine. That was a diff time, for both we intentionally timed it and tried. Plus they look exactly like me and large family of bros/sis. He is a full on irish, red hair, super light skin. I'm exactly the opposite w/Dark hair skin etc. 6. She indicated that she is committed to building a plan to communicate 1on1 with everyone that she has impacted. That includes all of my 5 brother/sisters, their spouses, our neighbors..you name it. 7. D is my nuclear option. My parents are still together after 50 yrs, its in my DNA and religion (not super religious) but I believe in the core role of forgiveness in religion. 8 - The contract - so I'm not crazy about the pure free form idea, cause I know I will get mainly emotion. I want facts, answers, and give her an opportunity to freeform any other facts that would cancel our agreement. They I can fill in the holes w/another and a conversation then off to the poly. Here's my tentative draft, I plan to read it out load with her together before she starts.

Consider this a contract and a final opportunity to be honest with me and yourself. Your honesty in this document is paramount. If anything is dishonest, a lie, important and left out then the consequence will be the termination of our relationship. This applies forever. So if I learn years from now that you were untruthful in any way on this document, or left out important information, I will no longer be a part of your life and you will significantly damage our children by deciding to not be fully open.

Complete honesty is the first step in healing for our family, please remember that with each question. You should list facts, not your emotions.

1. How often in your opinion where you messaging privately? Daily? Weekly?

2. On Sunday at the party before D-day, describe the messaging to the best of your knowledge in order that it happened between you two. (ie the way you are looking at me, ride my xxxx, come join me in shower…etc). Think thru the events of the day and put the messages in order.

You:

Him:

You:

Him:

You:

Etc

3. Before each message on that day, did you look up to see my whereabouts before sending? Or just carelessly sending?

4. Remembering ALL of your messaging, and imaging that I have it all, did you instigate any of the physical meetings regardless if any touching was involved? Ie Was it ever your suggestion to meet?

5. You consistently hid your phone and pin from me. If I had it, and all the messages were there, what was the top 3 most sexual things that you replied back to him with?

6. After discovery and you texted him, I’m worried etc. What did you mean by “we will talk”? To which he replied “That doesn’t sound good”. Why did you immediately delete the message? Who was the person you were most worried would find it?

7. When in your opinion did the texting first cross the line? What was said that crossed the line? I luv you doesn’t count.

8. Did you use any other apps then Instagram and text to communicate privately?

9. Did you ever suspect that your husband knew something was up? If yes, why/when?

10. Was any of the private contact ever in my car or your car?

11. How many times were you sexually together (includes any contact ie kissing)?

12. Do you feel you were the sexual aggressor for any of the meetings, was he, or mutual? List any facts that describe why you feel that way.

13. Was there any (including touching, kissing, groping, slapping ass..anything) sexual activity at our house? Describe:

14. Was there ever a visit at our house, or his house, café, restaurant, spin class or anywhere that was without me knowing and not listed below?

List each time you privately met without me knowing, regardless of contact:

Date/Time: Place: What Sexual Acts Happened if any?

I know there are more facts not addressed in my questions. This is your chance.

Is there anything you are holding back, leaving vague, not telling me, or already did that was untruthful that would cancel out this agreement if I find out later? Ie Is there anything you are holding back as you have been because you believe it will upset me more?

Freeform:

One day you will see that her losing friends and respect was the best possible thing to happen. Consequences to hurtful actions help someone get their head out of their rear.

Does her response around needing attention and he leveraging that really sound like a pile of crap?

Yes. It does.

Why?

Because A LOT of people want attention and are hit on and still don't cheat. It's a cop out. She isn't a child, she is an adult woman able to make decisions for herself. He didn't prey on her, she not only allowed it but encouraged it by way of the text. People being taken advantage of don't sext in front of their husband.

It will take time, if she is truly remorseful she will dig and figure out what part of her was so messed up that she thought this was an option.

But she probably won't do that if you allow her to have that be her reason why she didn't. Don't accept that reason.

she's answering surface level now. In IC, or maybe somewhere, she needs to get down to her whys so she can fix herself. Needing the attention is the answer to the first why. But there are about 10 more whys to that question that lead down a rabbit hole. When she gets to that bottom, it'll be all about her and she'll be forced to look only at herself.

how is this guy your best friend again?

His wife was actually good friends with mine and that's how we met a couple years ago.

Your wife was pretending to be helping this woman who thought she was her friend at a difficult time in the marriage while she(your wife) was actively taking bricks out of her friend's foundation? Because your wife wanted attention?

It sounds like she was taking advantage of their unstable and vulnerable marriage.

I'm glad she is going into therapy because that is cruel to a degree that is pathological in nature.

Yep ^^^^^

Sounds like she preyed on him using info she got from his W.

Joel,, I like where you're going.

As M1965 said

So if that is how she rolls, you will actually be limiting things by asking a ton of very specific questions, because your wife will only answer what she has been asked

That is a concern but you seem to be more rational and objective about this than most, so trust your instincts as you go.

You're getting a lot of advice and directions from every angle all at once, so you can slow down and sort it all out.

You will get through this, and it appears from your comments than your wife is willing to do the hard work. It is so important, ( at least it was to me) to have all the information so YOU know where you are starting from.

Are you in contact and on reasonable terms with the OM's wife? Is she willing to verify from her side? Or do you not want to go there? I see that as a limited window or opportunity, a week or two at most.

Please recognize that things will never be the way they were. If you stay, you building something new, and it's a long road.

Stay positive.

sewardak from the post above from Joel:

I mislabeled this "best friend". His wife was actually good friends with mine and that's how we met a couple years ago.

I've read your questions Joel. You are assuming in your line a questioning that they only felt each other up and got each other off via hands, rubbing, etc. You may want to pose the questions as though you know that they had intercourse. Present the question about sex as "how many times did you have intercourse, etc.?" Or add a question about intercourse. Make it sound like you've been made aware in some way. Give her an open door to walk into with the truth of how far they really went. Don't allow her to say later, "you didn't ask" or "I didn't want to hurt you more", etc. Assume the worst.

Joel, It sounds like you are thinking remarkably clearly for this traumatic situation and your questions are well thought out. I truly hope you follow through on the Polygraph with her, I found it paramount to my R with my husband. If you don't poly her you might not get to the full truth. And as hard as it is, you need to ask if there are others and more A's through the years.

Also, She is not a good mother. This is hard to digest. My fWH was what I considered a good father...UNTIL his infidelity started. Then he was NOT a good father, in any way. Your WW cannot be banging a handyman in a parking lot and committing a double betrayal and still be an amazing mother. Not possible. She put her marriage and your life (STD's) in jeopardy. She was thoughtless and selfish towards blowing up her kids lives with her reckless behavior.

No direct questions about PIV? Are you avoiding that bc it's too painful?

I forgot to add, as kaygem said, "...you need to ask if there are others and more A's through the years." That's a good polygraph question along with a question about bj's she gave and what intercourse that took place.

Thanks for the great feedback on the questions. Tomorrow I'm goin to tell her:

some of these answers I know and others that I don't. I'm re-asking some of the one's that I know to confirm you don't want to change your answer. Some are easy, some are hard - that's to help the poly determine baselines etc. The poly will re-ask most of these to you. I'm re-asking many of the things that you already told me so if your answer doesn't change, and you truly have come clean, then you will pass. Also want to let her know that her OM will likely be taking the same test so we can triangulate to get everyone on the same page...then I sit back and watch if she tries to communicate with him to confirm/collaborate. I don't like being this sneaky, but it feels the only way I can begin my next journey....whatever it is.