SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think maybe I can help, if just a little... Full disclosure, I'm not a woman, nor am I a wayward.

I think what waywards are looking for, men and women, is validation. I think that validation looks different for different people, and there are surely some stereotypes that hold up when you look at them through this lens. A woman might be swayed to engage in sexual activities to continue or increase the validation, while a man might be more romantic or attentive. Those behaviors likely escalate in order to continue the cycle.

I do agree with one thing that Hardroadout touched on, the transactional nature of these situations. I think it happens equally on both sides, and both parties are giving in places they normally wouldn't in order to keep receiving that validation.

The place it gets sticky is how the betrayal affects those exact places in the betrayed. There is a direct correlation between the validation "bought" by a WW and the invalidation that a BH feels. I will admit, sex is validating for me, in a lot of ways. It's connection, trust, and makes me feel valued by my partner. Having an affair does the exact opposite, and leaves a deficit in place of those things. It's hard to overcome.

I am reminded of the axiom about the drill. No one who buys a drill wants a drill, they want holes (no pun intended here). Spend less time worrying about the sex, and more time solving the validation.

So many differing opinions on this subject, which we are entitled too.

Just as there are differing "reasons" why a WW takes it physical.

They all wanted too, what varies is why? Attention, validation, hot sex, love, etc. Each individual is different.

If we reflect on the original question, its a member trying to make some logic out of the illogical. Any BS finds themselves in this situation.

By asking other WW's I believe he's trying to grapple with the person he married who would never exhibit this type of behavior versus the woman who in fact did. As another wise person told me earlier this week, this is part of the stages of grief; denial. Not fully accepting what the WW is capable of. I too am grappling with this. Not that I believe the responses are deliberately contradictory, but trying to understand when one says "I did not enjoy X with AP", but then later says "I sexted I needed X". As a BS how do we accept that as anything than one is a lie and our betrayed minds and hearts go straight to the negative. You did enjoy it and you lied and said you didn't. As others have pointed out only the WW can know which is truth and which is a lie, or are both a lie or truth? Its having the conversation with the WW to flesh out the thoughts and feelings and getting to the heart of it and having her put the pieces together for you, so you can make individual sense of it. It doesn't have to be logical, but it has to make sense. So asking the question from others helps frame the BS around just a bit more information to process and make sense out of the senseless.

Just my 2 cents

1. And, I retracted it. If the mods would like, they can delete it. Maybe this whole thread should be deleted?

2. No man can experience sex the way any woman can. It is simply not possible. We are biologically different. Do all women experience sex the same? Of course not. But, there are some broad generalizations that can be made because women and men do have observable and verifiable biological differences. And, I did not say men lack empathy. I said ON THIS ISSUE. Then, I corrected it, and said it appears that some men are struggling with empathy on this issue. And, I stand by that statement. One line insistence that ALL wayward women must be lying appears to be a complete inability to see it from ANY woman's perspective. My experiences are my experiences. I am telling the OP his WW answers CAN BE TRUE. I believe this because I have had what appears to be similar ones. So, yes, it CAN BE TRUE that women can say it isn't about the sex, and all they do is have sex. And, it can also be true that they do that because porn star sex can keep an uninvested man invested. Are you denying those things to be truth?

[This message edited by Hardroadout at 3:00 PM, June 29th (Friday)]

Hardroad, I think you're so worked up over men lacking empathy regarding some female perspective on sex or something you've missed the entire point of this thread.

If the sex is unsatisfying or not the point of the A, why go there? Why not just keep it an EA if that's your main source of kibbles or validation?

HardRoadOut, you are speaking truth. There are some posters on SI who will not, no matter what is offered as evidence or explanation or anecdote, change their view, and they take that same view thread to thread to thread. I haven't read this entire thread or even the last two pages, but some may be here. A thread a while back called them the BTWG, I think? Pease do not feel those comments about you. You are right on the money in your views on the biological differences between men and women's sexuality. I am a woman, and I can verify that you speak for me.

Reason.

They wanted to take the relationship to that level. They wanted the sex.

Riding,

I have been asking myself the same type of question for years. Have yet to hear an answer that makes sense to me. Other than the rare admission that they were horny and wanted some strange.

You ever watch those nature shows? The ones where one species interacts with another?

I saw one years ago. A tiger encounters a snake. The exchange was just a bunch of growling, hissing, and quick movements.

Why? Because they cannot speak and understand each other. Different species, different brains.

Much like what is happening here. IMO....The non-cheating male brain is (almost)...got watch out for those dreaded generalizations.....never going to understand the “Logic” of a female cheater mindset. The spaghetti like weaving of feelings, justifications, rationalizations, and assumptions may as well be written in greek.

I can understand it at one level. But it never really makes for a complete picture in my head.

I hope you get a answer that will make sense to you.

I only signed up to this site this week but have read almost every post on this site in Just Found Out/ General/ R/ Wayward.

This post is the most important post I have read on this site.

The women talking about having sex that is not great sex just to get kibbles has helped me immensely. I had no idea this concept existed.

My wife had a 6 month long affair that included sex twice a week. This devastated me beyond words.

I read that affair sex was frequently amazing because it was taboo and had no strings attached. The idea of my wife having great sex with another man is a nightmare.

The comments by women on this thread seem to suggest that affair sex is frequently not amazing sex and sometimes is terrible sex yet keep going back to get kibbles. ( I had to look up the meaning of the word kibbles ) I hope my wife had terrible to mediocre sex.

Ladies, is there a way I can approach this topic with my wife and actually get an honest answer from my wife suggesting if the affair sex was great or terrible. Also, is there a way to ask her if the sex was primarily about the kibbles. Will she even understand that concept if she has not yet started therapy ?

Men need not respond to this post because I dont think you know much about female sexuality.

I also want to say it is totally absurd to think men understand female sexuality better than women understand female sexuality which several of the men on this seemed to believe.

[This message edited by JohnPaulYnreeeee at 5:22 PM, June 29th (Friday)]

Have yet to hear an answer that makes sense to me. Other than the rare admission that they were horny and wanted some strange.

I think, for me, it comes to this. It's the only "reason" I accept because it's the only thing that an A reliably provides. It's hard to think that "love" was the reason for an A when everyone knows that's NOT what A's are about. I mean, sometimes they are, but it's terribly uncommon. It makes about as much sense as shopping at Home Depot for fine china, yeah, the MIGHT have some way in the back, but.. 99% of the time, what they have there are 2x4s and nails. If you don't want 2x4's or nails, you don't go to HD, you go to the china store. There's just no logic behind it, and logic is my world. If my W came out and said "I just wanted to f**k someone new" it would all fall into place. OK, an A is a logical way to do that and not necessarily lose your M (assuming you want both). It's a bad choice, and I'd question how valuable the sex was to her (because it's not at all valuable to her in our relationship) but still, there's logic to it. It's just so hard to follow the logic that my W used to get into an A, and even harder to follow the logic in her decision making while in an A. The OM, I got it, totally understand what he was doing and where his logic was. It would be me in an A, he was good at it and got exactly what he came for. But my W? It terrifies me when I don't/can't understand things or describe them in a way that makes sense to me. And I can't. Which is the point of this entire thread, to try to get someone else to explain it to me.

Ladies, is there a way I can approach this topic with my wife and actually get an honest answer from my wife suggesting if the affair sex was great or terrible. Also, is there a way to ask her if the sex was primarily about the kibbles. Will she even understand that concept if she has not yet started therapy ?

You asked for women to answer, but I'll give you my answer. It's "no". If the sex was amazing, she'll lie about it if she wants to reconcile. The only way you'll know is to D and ask her years later. Think about you in this situation. If you had an A, and the AP was amazing in bed, totally blew your mind and your wife asked.. What would you say? It's nearly impossible for either sex to be honest about this, hence, threads like this, trying to derive meaning out of illogical spaghetti. Don't put the concept of "kibbles" in her mind, let her explain it to you in her words and see what it sounds like to you. Of course she'll claim "kibbles" once she understands the concept, that sounds a lot better than "I was a selfish ass" or "I just wanted to sleep with someone new" (NOT that these are her answers, I'm just saying, "kibbles" is about as non-offensive an answer as you can possibly imagine for the why).

RIO: Here is a thought. During my promiscuous single years, I noticed a direct correlation between women who were porn star sexual and lunatic crazy. I started talking about this with my single buddies, who all noticed the same thing. It’s pretty universally recognized by single guys, almost axiomatic, like Avogadro’s Number or Plank’s Constant. Invariably, you learn that these women have serious FOO issues, or something similar. You meet a 20-something with an abusive or alcoholic daddy and/or a promiscuous mother, you know Sir Topham Hat is gonna be happy. Absent father and alcoholic promiscuous mother who had sex where she could see and hear it at a young age, you’re getting facials and ass-to-mouth almost from the first date. Single working poor mother with no family support, living on the brink of poverty and despair? She’ll milk you dry every morning before work to prevent you from even thinking about that sexy coworker in the next cubicle.

Yes, I dated plenty of women who were confident and together and had healthy libidos. But the ones who are almost desperate to please the Johnson, they are almost always the crazy ones. These are the ones who give you road head every time you get in the car, but slash your tires if you dump them, or secretly make a copy of the key to your apartment and go in when you’re away to snoop through your stuff, and then wait there naked when you get home. Invariably you find out these women have very damaged souls.

I mention this because one narrative we see over and over in the context of WW having LTA with lots of freaky sex is that she is experiencing some sort of identity crisis. One of the things they often say is “it could have been anybody.” I dated a young (single) woman in particular who was the sort of fantasy sex every man dreams of. Jaw-dropping beauty. Smart, personable, and funny. But really messed up due to a lifetime of severe family dysfunction. Any sexual fantasy I could think of was mine, and many that I had not actually even ever thought of by myself (which is saying a lot because I have an active sexual imagination). Laser attention focused on the Johnson, to the point of being on her knees almost every day when I walked in the door from work. But always the lurking sense that if it wasn’t me, it would be any other guy who was sort of like me, a port in the storm. When I broke up with her, she was involved with another man within a week or two, just as intensely as with me. Really, all she wanted was a man who would listen to her, be nice to her, share her sense of humor, etc. A port in the storm.

The double brokenness of this narrative occurs when the woman is married is that she for whatever reason does not direct this to her husband. I guarantee you that any husband who gets the porn star treatment from his wife, even if she’s crazy, is a happy man. But this is an infidelity site, so we see the cases where WW’s direct this to an AP. Hence this thread.

One version of this that is especially hurtful is where the BH is the sole breadwinner and the WW is a SAHM. For men who are sole breadwinners, the threat of failure at work is daunting. We look at the pictures of our wives and kids and we feel the pressure to provide for them. The thought of them at home relying on us helps us endure all manner of bad bosses, disrespectful peers, unreasonable demands, because we are providers. One of our love languages is throwing ourselves into our work to be sure that we don’t fail and let our families down. We may seem exhausted and distracted at home because of the effort. All we really want is a wife who gives us a little comfort when we get home, and a little joy, so we can go out and do it again. Sometimes, though, SAHM’s interpret this as neglect and begin looking outward.

When the SAHM becomes a WW, we are doubly emasculated. Not only does it feel like a sexual rejection, it also feels like a rejection of the burden we carry at work each day. It feels like we are totally devalued. In a man’s mind – at least an honorable man who wants to be a loyal spouse and loving father – what greater showing of true love than to work hard, often in dehumanizing circumstances, day in, day out, year in, year out, bringing home 100% of our pay to the family, toeing the line, honoring our vows despite flirty advances from occasional coworkers, not burdening our families with troubles and stresses of work, and doing our chores and “honey-do’s” on the weekends. When a WW cheats on that man, the hurt is right down to the marrow of the bone.

Butforthegrace,

I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to say in that thread, perhaps because I was laughing so hard reading it. But yes, there's certainly a correlation between crazy and good in bed. I think most men find that out early. But, to be fair, some of the most spectacular sexual experiences I've had have been with women who are pretty well centered, or, at least appear so. But, yes, if they seem crazy from the get go, you can pretty assured that the sex is going to be off the charts, I do agree with that.

So, if I could sum up what I think your saying, WW's are "crazy" when they are in the A, hence, they act as crazy women do, sexual dynamo? Well, you've got me thinking, that's for sure, if that's what you're saying, because I never put that together before.

The rest of your post is dead on too, but I don't want to turn this into the crazy long thread we had months ago about sexual acts in the A compared to the M. That's a whole different ball of wax!

I really just can’t understand the befuddlement here.

When a person, male or female, starts an affair they are choosing to have a boyfriend/ girlfriend.

The natural succession of bf/gf is sex.

In the case of this thread, they have sex with their boyfriend. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s bad, sometimes it rock their world. Sometimes it sucks. But, they do it for what ever reason that they want that boyfriend.

Men: there is no more emasculation for you that your SAHW strays than it is for any SAH wife whose husband cheats. Nor the working wife vs the working dad vs the stay at home dad. Please. It’s all fucking awful.

Adults in relationships have sex. All the men that cheat, for reasons explained as sex only, are having sex with somebody.

She wanted it. She did it. She went back for more.

Why parse this to death?

^ What she said.

She wanted it. She did it. She went back for more.

Because a whole lot of women, including my W, said something like "It wasn't for the sex" or "The sex wasn't what I was after". Yeah, in a BF/GF relationship, for sure, sex is one of the goals. There are other goals too, advance the relationship, build a bond, move towards marriage, perhaps get pregnant. None of that's happening in an A (at least not your typical A).

Also, the sex in an A is really often over the top. It's not just a BF/GF hooking up for the first time, those exciting moments together. It's like that crossed with a scene from the Bangbus. OK, so you "dated" the AP for a few months and you slept with him on the 5th date. That might seem reasonable. But that's not what usually happens. It's the first date, and it's not once, it's 5 times. It's a whole new "level" of sexual depravity that a lot of people seem to drop to in an A (and only depravity because of who they are doing it with). Also, to the point of this entire thread, a whole lot of women say that's not what they wanted, not why they were there.

RIO, you're really beating this to death.

A couple points that you seem to be overlooking:

1. It is NOT rational/logical behavior and can't be examined expecting to find rationality/logic.

2. 1 WW on this thread actually did exactly what you said they never do (used an EA for ego kibbles and strung AP along to keep getting them without actually getting physical). So it does happen, which leads us to

3. All women are different, just as all men are different. There are certainly differences between the sexes, but much more similarities. That is why you can see in the responses that many WW did it for different reasons. Sometimes it was the sex. More often it appears it was some fucked up notion of "romance" or excitement.

4. Many are lying because they don't think their BHs want to hear it.

Every situation is different.

Rideitout- You are generalizing about women. Additionally, women know much more about female sexuality than you.

OK, towel thrown in. No more beating it to death, I'll chalk it up to "the unknown with no rational or logical explanation". That's really difficult for me though, and it'll continue to be something that keeps me awake at night. IMHO, all things can be explained rationally and with logic IF you understand them well enough. I clearly do NOT understand this close to well enough.

So she wanted kibbles and gave him sex; he wanted sex so gave her kibbles.

Who knows what m/m or f/f cheaters wanted. So they fit a pattern, too?

Maybe it’s the reverse of what you think. Maybe, cheaters also lie. Maybe, it’s too brutally honest to admit you have sex for kibbles or kibbles for sex.

You seem to want to break this down across gender lines. As if, as a male, you can only understand the sex part.

Fine. But, men here also say, I lost my erection, I couldn’t get it up, yet they tried and tried again.

People who cheat, emotionally, sexually, and/or both, do it consciously and willingly. Whether it was good sex or bad, they chose. The reasons are as varied as the members here.

Just realize that. Excuses don’t matter. Actions do. Going back repeatedly for sex tells me there was something absolutely enjoyable in that for the cheater.

Rideout,

Speculation on my part and perhaps projection but I suspect from being in other situations where (TENSION RISING YET CONTAINED) boundaries are pushed, probed, challenged, and then eventually or accidentally a line is crossed (TENSION IS LET LOOSE)...off to the races with nothing but wide open and uncharted territory for miles because most people don't think they'll ever make it past the first boundary. If they had maybe they set up another one 3 clicks south of the first but that didn't happen and things are in motion so they tend to stay in motion.

...and fuck you with throwing in the towel. Assuming it really is keeping you up at night that's a fight worth having...so I'll be right here with you and we can beat it's dead ass until it comes back alive and screams uncle.

You want to take a break? That's fine but no fucking quitting.