SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Because porn star sex keeps uninvested men coming back.

Rio, your wife may now feel like you are uninvested, and she would have good reason to think that.

Obvious answer that has been posted a few time in this discussion - BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO.

Now, to LostHope's plea for compassion. I am all for compassion because it is the right thing to do. BUT PLEASE DON'T ASCRIBE MOTIVE in a sweeping way. We are constantly admonished to not make generalities. So saying "Yet they are still here, despite getting shit on (quite deserved imo). So let’s give them some credit. The WS is still trying to fight through this shit storm also..." and implying the act of staying is "credit worthy" is introducing a conclusion not necessarily supported by all evidence.

My wife clung to our marriage because she had no where else to turn. Divorce from me would have exposed her everywhere as the adulterer. She was not staying out of love at the time - she even admitted that.

So compassion. YES. Credit - not necessarily.

^^^^^ another man.

I am beginning to believe that men are incapable of empathy on this. They can't see outside themselves on sex. THEY would only enter an A for sex. THEY have never had bad sex. THEY like porn star sex (bc a money making industry conditioned them to).

So all women must think and feel the same way.

Wrong.

I am beginning to believe that men are incapable of empathy on this.

Ugh.. I'm the OP, I'm a man, and I'm trying to understand. Yes, I know what my reasons would be. My wife's reasons don't make sense to me, so I'm trying to understand. I even put in the title "to the WW's". I find the male answers interesting, but the real answers I am seeking are in fact from women. And yes, I may argue back, or say that doesn't make sense to me. Because I want to understand, not because I feel like I already know the answer and am trying to validate some thesis. The easy answer is "because she's lying and has always been lying about sex". Or "because she just wanted a f00k buddy, but wants you to think it was romantic so you'll forgive her". I don't think that's the right answer. Which was the entire point of this thread.

And yes, I may argue back, or say that doesn't make sense to me. Because I want to understand,

But it’s not going to make sense to you. You just don’t seem wired that way. That’s okay, but you’re looking to try and make sense of something that doesn’t make sense to you.

Like what you said earlier.

The cheater who's delivering the ego kibbles has EVERY reason to lie. And they do lie, a lot, in many cases, more than they tell the truth. Why would you value that kind of affirmation? They'll say anything to get what they want, how does that carry any weight at all. It's entirely transparent, and the motivation couldn't be easier to discern. Yeah, your the most smart amazing and beautiful woman I've ever met. Now, can you please come here and give me a BJ in the stairwell please.. I mean, really? That carries weight? That's worth something to AP's? Worth enough to blow up your marriage? That math does not make sense to me.

Obviously when you say it this way it doesn’t make any sense, but that’s not how affair relationships and these kinds of things develop. My AP didn’t hand me a line one day and then as if it was a magic spell that I felt so wonderful and I just had to have sex with him. It took months. I knew him for a year beforehand. We talked and I shared things I shouldn’t. It was nowhere as transparent as it should have been and I was also looking for the validation and escaping other issues.

You’re looking at it in hindsight, condensing it to a one liner, and then saying it doesn’t make sense even though you want it to. It won’t. It’s not “math.” Instead of trying to make the math work, accept that fact that people are motivated by different things, see things differently, and will do things that at the time seem perfectly fine to them but are mind boggling to you.

I just don’t think you’ll find what you’re looking for.

RIO the answers from the women here (both WS and BS) are as vastly different as all of us are. You have some men disagreeing with each other as well. You are no closer to a "true" answer because one does not exist. Each person's individual psyche decides their own motivations for their choices. As difficult as this is to hear, your WW is the only person who can provide you with answers you seek. Her truth is her truth alone. Whether you understand her reasons or agree with them, they are her motivation. If you can't believe her due to previous lying, then you can't. Asking us for her truth will not work.

It has been said countless times through the years.

That WW's like the emotional needs that the OM is

meeting. They like the addictive high from having those needs met. They do not want the OM to stop

meeting those needs. They do not want to lose the

source of their addiction.

So to keep the OM hooked they give up sex to the OM

to keep him meeting her emotional needs.

Sorry, rio. That was an overgeneralized statement made out of frustration. I was not directing it at you. I can see how hard you are trying to understand. I see you trying to see from a woman's eyes. That was directed at the men who are giving you one liner answers like she wanted to, she is lying, etc. It isn't that simple. Might she be lying? Yep. Might she be telling the truth? Yep. Because you have seen the women here tell you many different perspectives. Here's a little more to baffle you. Women can like slow and soft and loving,and sometimes we want to be banged.

My IC reminds me often: people are not black OR white. They are black AND white, and many shades of grey.

[This message edited by Hardroadout at 12:42 PM, June 29th (Friday)]

Obviously when you say it this way it doesn’t make any sense, but that’s not how affair relationships and these kinds of things develop. My AP didn’t hand me a line one day and then as if it was a magic spell that I felt so wonderful and I just had to have sex with him. It took months. I knew him for a year beforehand. We talked and I shared things I shouldn’t. It was nowhere as transparent as it should have been and I was also looking for the validation and escaping other issues.

Thing is, there's no other way to say it. That's what happened. AP would say a bunch of lovey stuff, BJ in the stairwell would follow. I get that you (and my W) were escaping other issues and oversharing. Fully understand that part of it. But the physical stuff, that's a big line in the sand that it seems like nearly every AP jumps over (if given the opportunity). For men, the reason "why"; I feel like I know the answer (maybe I don't but I'm 95% confident I do). But I don't get it for female APs. I don't understand the mindset; "He says he loves me more than air" then he goes home to his wife and kids after I give him a BJ. It seems like it takes a shocking level of cognitive dissidence to simultaneously think "love" and "BJ in the car before he goes back home to his wife".

To other posters, I'm not asking you for my W's truth. I'm asking for your truth to see if I can fit any of them to my wife's. Yes, it's about her, of course, but because I don't understand it, it's very difficult to believe that what she's told me is in fact her truth. I was hoping to hear it repeated from other women with more explanation, perhaps others who've examined it more closely. Not to determine my wife's answer, but to understand it better.

So to keep the OM hooked they give up sex to the OM to keep him meeting her emotional needs.

And I think this is a big part of it, especially for my W. But, thing is, he would have kept sending over the "Your so special" messages and calls if she'd just kept him interested or implied sex was available at some time. Yes, eventually he'd lose interest and move on, but it was almost immediate from "your so special" to sex. It's just hard to believe that anyone could think that someone who "loves them" would move on that fast if they didn't put out. Unless my W knew he didn't love her. And knew he was only there for sex. Then it makes perfect sense. But she holds conflicting views; she thought he loved her AND she put the sex into overdrive to keep him around. Well, that doesn't make sense unless, of course, SHE wanted the sex in overdrive and wanted it to be physical. She wanted to porn star sex experience. And it's not just my W, this story repeats here all the time, a WW coming in after a PA and saying that the sex wasn't "what they were after" but, looking back, it's about all they did together. It's just hard to understand how both of those things can be true at the same time.

Either way, thank you for all the responses so far, it's been very interesting!

I am beginning to believe that men are incapable of empathy on this. They can't see outside themselves on sex. THEY would only enter an A for sex. THEY have never had bad sex. THEY like porn star sex (bc a money making industry conditioned them to).

Fighting ridiculously generalized assertions with ridiculously generalized assertions. Bold move.

Responding to a post with criticism before reviewing the retraction....good move!

No, I read it. It didn't really unring the bell for me.

Perhaps just delete the entire part where you say that men are incapable of empathy. Like, if that weren't on this page anymore, it might be better.

For the life of me, I just do not understand why comments like that get thrown around here, regardless of frustration. We are ALL recovering.

Yes I do believe more compassion is needed. Yes I do believe people can change. Finally, I agree with the notion that there is not one clear answer that is going to satisfy everyone. I need to have more compassion for my ww. That is me personally. No one else needs to agree with that. Just like no one else can answer RIO’s question. After reading the latest post in wayward, my ww DESERVES more compassion from me. She is trying to be a better wife and person.

1. Deleting content is prohibited.

2. I am speaking my truth. It is frustrating to see so many men dismiss women's perspectives on women's issues. You are not a woman. You do not live in our world. We are dismissed every day on issues that a man simply cannot experience because he is not a woman. To see it from our eyes, men must have empathy. And, seeing all these one liners about how women simply MUST be lying about having bad sex and going back to it is disappointing. It looks a whole lot like men having real difficulties empathizing with women on sex because they experience it so very differently. When we see waywards, we make general statements about their lack of empathy. Insisting that women MUST experience sex like a man is a lack of empathy. Was my statement too broad? Yes. Clearly, some men get it. But equally as clear from some of the insistence FROM MEN that women MUST be lying is that many men struggle to "get" how women experience sex.

3. I am not the only woman on this thread that is frustrated with what looks to be ONLY men saying women must be lying.

It seems like it takes a shocking level of cognitive dissidence to simultaneously think "love" and "BJ in the car before he goes back home to his wife".

Ummm one thing I have learned is that MY WH wasn't thinking about me or the kids or the consequences when he was getting his BJ's.

There was no thought of us. It was all about him and what he wanted.

Can't it be the same for a female AP? Maybe she isn't thinking about him going home to his wife and kids in the moment she's got his dick down her throat...

Just sayin...

1. Posting broad generalizations is also prohibited.

2. Simply by saying that there is a "way" that women experience sex is also a broad generalization. As is your comment that porn star sex keeps uninvested men coming back. You are as guilty of overlaying the experiences of other women with yours as the men you are admonishing. Your experience is not the experience of all women. On top of that you say things like men are incapable of empathy, which is spectacularly shitty.

3. While I will agree, I will state that my own experience with my own wayward wife has shown me that her relationship with honestly, especially with herself, was a complete sham. I will not, however, say that defines any other woman.

RIO:

Usually when two people get married they promise to be exclusive with each other both in terms of love and sex, for life. Certainly there are exceptions such as polyamorous relationships and such, but for purposes of SI, the baseline assumption is mutual promises of lifelong fidelity, both emotional and physical.

Yet all the time married people break those promises. They break them in big ways and small. If the standard is "if you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse, it's across the line", I'd wager that a goodly chunk of the betrayeds posting on SI have crossed the line.

Once the promise is broken, you've entered the upside-down, where things stop making sense. The farther a wayward spouse strays from the baseline promise, the more twisted it gets.

"Why take it physical"? I think there are probably as many answers as there are wayward spouses. Currently on various forums there is a thread where a WW fucked a physical trainer at a gym because he was Brad Pitt hot and she had always fantasized about fucking a guy like that. There is a WW who had a FFM threesome with her male cousin and a female COW, just for the fun of it. On the other end of the spectrum, there is a WW who was in a sexless marriage for like two years, begging her H for sex, with suspicious circumstances suggesting hubby might have himself been up to hanky-panky, finally resorting to another man just to feel some physical affection. And huge range of circumstances in between.

I agree that we do see a repeated narrative in some WW LTA threads here where the WW had repeated porn-level sex with the AP, including a great deal of time and energy devoted to creating circumstances where she could have sex with him and keep it secret from her BH, and later the WW said stuff like "the A was never about the sex" or "the sex wasn't that great" or "I didn't really want the sex, I just did it to get the ego kibbles", or some such. In some instances, those statements don't ring true.

I gather you are wrestling with this tension in the context of your WW. Without reading all of your threads, my sense is that your gut says she is at least minimizing, if not outright lying. Your gut may well be correct. In that case, the sort of generalist hypothetical question you ask here isn't going to yield an answer for you.

Ummm one thing I have learned is that MY WH wasn't thinking about me or the kids or the consequences when he was getting his BJ's.

I would imagine not. However, that's not exactly the same thing. To frame it in these terms, was your H letting her give him BJ's because he thought she loved him? Or did he just want a BJ? That's where I think things diverge between our examples. I suspect your H was after the BJ. I suspect the woman giving him the BJ wasn't in an A just to get a strange penis in her mouth. So why was she doing it? Did she think your H would stop paying attention to her without BJs? Did she just really like giving BJs? Was she trying to get him to marry her? That's the crux of the question here.

I agree that we do see a repeated narrative in some WW LTA threads here where the WW had repeated porn-level sex with the AP, including a great deal of time and energy devoted to creating circumstances where she could have sex with him and keep it secret from her BH, and later the WW said stuff like "the A was never about the sex" or "the sex wasn't that great" or "I didn't really want the sex, I just did it to get the ego kibbles", or some such. In some instances, those statements don't ring true.

So are they lying? Or are they telling the truth? Actually, you probably helped narrow it down a bit, it's not all WW's I'm looking to answer this question (although, please, keep commenting). It's the WW who does this. Has sex like mad with the AP, all kinds of kinky stuff, and then claims "it wasn't about the sex". And from my reading, that's not a small group, it seems to be pretty common, so there should be plenty of WW's here who can offer up some insight.

I saw it expressed in another thread a few months ago. A WW claimed "it wasn't about the sex" and the BH said back to her something like "if you took out all the days you had sex, you never would have seen him in person". All you did together was have sex. Can those statements be true at the same time; "It wasn't about the sex" but "All we did together was have sex"?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 1:58 PM, June 29th (Friday)]

So why was she doing it? Did she think your H would stop paying attention to her without BJs? Did she just really like giving BJs? Was she trying to get him to marry her? That's the crux of the question here.

Obviously I can't speak for her but from what I gather from their emails and when I pretended to be WH in emails after day, her motivation was that WH made her feel special. She did say she loved him. She said he treated her better than her BH. She wanted what was best for him although she did think that meant "with her". She wanted him to leave me for her. She saw a life together. (Note this is with OW2. Ow1....I have no clue. Ow3 I don't even know who she is/was, just that he had a PA with a third female from work).

I think she was willing to do anything to get him to drop me and be with her.

I hope that helps.

Can those statements be true at the same time; "It wasn't about the sex" but "All we did together was have sex"?

Yes. When it is all you have to keep an uninvested man invested.