SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Flawed. I also posted on your H thread just to be clear. My situation mirrors yours in way. My had an EA/PA and I found out three years later. Fully R'd and happy BTW. 7 years out.

Right now I think the best thing is to keep up with IC. You both are hurt by this. I am not saying who is hurt worse because that should be obvious. Keeping a secret like this for that long obviously took a toll, but it also changed you in some ways. Some positive some negative. You now have the opportunity to keep the positives and work on letting the negatives go.

While you have had 12 years to deal with this your H has only had a few weeks. I know that seems obvious, but you have already dealt with this and assigned meaning to it. Your H is just beginning in that journey. Please be mindful of that. Never tell him it is in the past. To him it is very recent, no matter when the A occurred. It is a trauma like no other. Please just be mindful that he is not going to be in the same place you are for quite some time. Be patient and caring. Please don't expect him to get past this in a few months either. You've had 12 years, are you fully healed by now ? My guess is no.

I also would say that while my W lied to me for those 3 years she also lied to herself to the point that she believed those lies. She minimized, justified and compartmentalized it. It took her time to work through those to get at the root. It is like rope that is knotted thousands of times. All of those knots have to be undone if you want to be the W you've always wanted to be.

If you really want your H to heal then be supportive of what he tells you that he needs. Even if you don't think it will help. He wouldn't ask if he did not need it. Effort counts. You will fail sometimes and that is OK. Just keep trying and don't waver. Use IC to recharge and re-calibrate if you feel yourself being burned out. He likely won't always be able to support you. When he does thank him and take a moment to see the generosity from where that comes. Taking risks like that only come from a place of love. Model what you'd like to see yourself too.

Often the most important part of the wayward journey is the why. I think in your and my case the why questions takes on a different path. The A itself is not what I've struggled with. It is the lies that do the most damage. You confessed, but at the same time you need to really understand why you did it. Why you did not come clean. What changed ? Was the guilt too much to bear ? Did you overcompensate over the past 12 years? Did you use the guilt of your A to give your H a lot more space to engage in behaviors you otherwise would have put a stop to ?

You don't need to answer me. I just want you to begin exploring that as it will be central to your healing and also your reconciliation.

Trust doesn't come back immediately. It requires being very transparent in thoughts and actions. Your words must match you actions. You won't get the benefit of the doubt for a long time. Don't look at that with rebellion or resentment. It is a part of getting you what you want. A fully R'd M where the past choices don't matter as much because you are so happy and excited about your future. There are lessons to be learned, but he will never forget that they happened.

I go against the grain here, but I think that amends and restitution do have their place in R. That looks different to different people, but in a nutshell it is being who you always told yourself you were. You might be close and done a lot of that work already, but you have to show your H how you are different that that 23 year old. You also have to show him that you aren't the 32 year old that lied so convincingly to him. It is important to point out those distinctions.

Lastly we say on here all the time that giving a WS an opportunity to R is a gift. It is a very special gift given by someone who is going against every impulse they have. Please keep that in mind. Your H doesn't have to offer that. Honor the second chance by taking full advantage to build a M where you both are so happy. You both have to heal yourselves before you can do that.

I gave my W a chance and she earned it after the fact. She failed as much as she succeeded, but she always kept trying. It helped me believe that she really did want me and she wanted it for the "right" reasons.

Keep up IC. Encourage your H to do the same. Keep communicating with him. Be as vulnerable and humble as you can be.

Another book you might want to look into is the 5 love languages. Is it not about recovering from infidelity, but it gives you a framework to better understand how each of you feel loved. If you want him to heal the best thing you can do is show him that he is very loved. Speak his language. You can't heal him, but doing so is much easier when your needs are met.

Don't hold your pain back either. Share that with him too. He needs to see what this choice and the choice of keeping it a secret for 12 years has cost you. It helps him see some justice in it. In time he will come to understand that you damaged yourself as much as you damaged him.

I don't want to scare you, but in time this will become a much harder on you than it will be on him. Support him as much as you can right now and he do so in kind.

If you would have told me that R was possible and that I would have a much happier M today 7 years ago I wouldn't have believed you. It takes time. Not days, not months, but years. Be patient and keep posting.

Out of the most dire situations come the most validating and rewarding results. Be kind to yourself and to your H.

Thank you all for your responses. I have read each of your replies multiple times and appreciate the time you took to respond with your insights.

Oldwounds – thank you for your words. This resonated with me and my BS.

Your primary weapons should be - effort, honesty, kindness and more patience than you can imagine.

Klaatu – thank you for your encouraging words. I have fully disclosed every excruciating detail to my BS. He has helped me understand how important the details are for him to get closure and know exactly what he is trying so hard to accept.

Still-living – My BS is the most intelligent and confident person I know. It kills me that I have shattered his confidence. He has always been able to do whatever he puts his mind to; he’s an incredible person and I hope that his confidence is restored over time with the work he’s doing to overcome his insecurities and the work I’m doing to rebuild his trust.

WilliamM – thank you for this. The deep love we have for each other is what keeps us committed to this healing process. I’ve caused him such immense pain that he will have to live with forever, and yet he somehow manages to love me and have incredible patience for me as I fumble through this. I am in awe of his strength and am setting out on the path to delve deeper into my “whys” so I can be a better spouse, mom, and individual. He has graciously given me the opportunity to demonstrate my commitment to this process.

be honest in all things, nothing is too small or unimportant, when you fail, lift yourself up, learn from it and implement what you learned. When you succeed, be humble and gracious. Do all things in love. He loves you. Live can cover a multitude of faults. Respect that.

Butforthegrace – I sincerely appreciate the time you spent to carefully craft this response. Every painful truth you wrote makes sense, echoes what my BS has communicated to me, and has really helped me to grasp the depths of my BS’s pain. I will keep coming back to your powerful words over and over again.

You are right that it wasn’t just sex and I see how saying so is incredibly damaging. I’m still working on understanding the whys and what it was in me that made me so quickly and carelessly escalate from flirting to sex with my AP. My understanding today is that I used sex for validation and as an extremely destructive coping mechanism during a time when I felt lost, lonely, inadequate, and disconnected from my BS. I have a long history of relying on destructive behaviors as coping mechanisms including an 8-year-long eating disorder, an addiction to marijuana, binge drinking, and casual hookups with men prior to dating my BS. I used to thrive on male attention for validation and it’s true that I still thrive on external validation. I believe (yes, I know how this sounds…bear with me) that my need for male attention has been displaced with my need to be validated as a good wife, mom, and employee, but my BS pointed out this morning that I haven’t really had an opportunity to “test” this because our life circumstances have created boundaries that have protected me from forming inappropriate connections with other men. Back to that word “believe” – I know how little weight my beliefs carry because I also believed I would never cheat. It doesn’t matter what I believe; what matters is that I do what’s right. That’s why this is one of the things I want to understand and work to address in IC so that my BS and I are both confident that I can better identify risky situations and avoid them rather than lean into them for validation.

Your post also made me realize that although the whys are incredibly important, they won’t change how my BS feels about what I did to him or the fact that what I did has irreparably damaged his most fragile insecurity. I hate that he will carry this pain forever and that if he chooses to stay then at best he may eventually accept what I did and learn to live with it. He deserves so much more than this.

Zugzwang – I am working on this:

Be open, honest, and vulnerable. Stop sugar coating stuff.

I find it incredibly difficult to open up to anyone. I am just plain horrible at expressing my feelings and expect to stumble quite a bit as I learn to do this more effectively. Once again my BS is graciously giving me the space to work on this.

Are you being honest with yourself? Is it really that you didn't know or is it more like you didn't want to do the work?

These are great questions, and you are right that I thrived on the early infatuation high and that it validated my self-esteem and self-confidence. I started to feel insecure when our relationship shifted from infatuation to routine, and I felt like I was competing with video games for his attention. I craved his attention more than ever because I had no other close friends in this new city who I felt safe relying on for support. I lacked the skills to effectively communicate my feelings and needs to my BS (I still do – this is another huge thing I am working on), and it pains me to know that had I been able to do so, he would have supported me through what I was going through at the time. But instead, I disconnected from my BS and resented him for not attending to the needs that I never communicated to him. So I guess it’s a bit of both - I didn’t know how to effectively communicate my needs and also didn’t want to have to do it.

FEEL – Thank you for your feedback. I see your point. One thing I’m working on is being accountable for my actions rather than blame-shifting and minimizing what I’ve done so the use of “I” in my post was intentional. This post was about me…I did this unconscionable thing, I hurt my BS, I need help figuring out how to make him heal. If you are up for it, I would like to hear some examples of how you wish your WS framed the conversation to be more about your feelings while remaining accountable.

Robert22205https – Thank you for the encouragement. Sharing this was incredibly difficult. I cried hysterically after my first post for all the remorse and self-hatred it drummed up. My BS comforted me. He told me how proud he was of me for putting the absolute worst parts of myself out there. I am still scared and hesitant, but I know it’s important for me to learn and grow and be and do better.

I have not had many IC sessions yet, but I’d be happy to share a bit about my experience to date. A challenge I’m experiencing in IC is that because my affair happened 12 years ago, my therapist thinks it’s important to focus on bigger picture relationship issues (mainly communication and conflict avoidance) and that will help us process and heal from my affair. I see value in this approach, but it feels a bit like we glossed over the whys so I’m going to reframe our conversations starting this week and ask that my therapist help me unpack the whys, including FOO issues that I need help understanding. This site has been such an amazing resource so I hope that I’ll be able to contribute more as I gain more insights.

Numb&dumb – Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. Your post struck every chord and I will read it over and over. I’m so happy to hear you’re fully R’d and happy. Stories like yours give me hope and remind me that the road to recovery and reconciliation is a long one.

I also would say that while my W lied to me for those 3 years she also lied to herself to the point that she believed those lies. She minimized, justified and compartmentalized it. It took her time to work through those to get at the root. It is like rope that is knotted thousands of times. All of those knots have to be undone if you want to be the W you've always wanted to be.

I love the way you put this, and I hate that it's painfully true for me too. I still have a long way to go to untie all the knots.

Flawed, I would encourage you to keep posting and keep reading. There are a couple of things that I want to bring to your attention.

I believe (yes, I know how this sounds…bear with me) that my need for male attention has been displaced with my need to be validated as a good wife, mom, and employee, but my BS pointed out this morning that I haven’t really had an opportunity to “test” this because our life circumstances have created boundaries that have protected me from forming inappropriate connections with other men. Back to that word “believe” – I know how little weight my beliefs carry because I also believed I would never cheat. It doesn’t matter what I believe; what matters is that I do what’s right. That’s why this is one of the things I want to understand and work to address in IC so that my BS and I are both confident that I can better identify risky situations and avoid them rather than lean into them for validation.

It is absolutely essential that you identify your whys, own them, and work on developing healthier, safer (for your BS and M) coping mechanisms. After all, there will come a day when your children don’t occupy all of your time and you may feel neglected again. What happens in that situation if you haven’t done the work to fix what allowed you to cheat the first time? Reading the story of Mrs. Walloped might provide some insight.

Also, your comments on where your IC is focusing raised some concern for me. It almost sounds like the IC thinks the time is somehow a salve for the betrayal, and that problems in the relationship, rather than the brokenness inside you, were the cause of the cheating. I think this is a big, big mistake. Especially, from your BS’s perspective. Remember, your BH just found out in the past month or so. His wound is still fresh. Likewise, he may have been feeling disconnected from you 12 years ago, or in the time since when the kids have been your primary focus, and he didn’t go out and have sex with another woman. You share the problems of the M 50-50, but there really is no M to work on unless you fix what makes you unsafe as a spouse. Focus there.

While you no doubt need to work on the issues your IC has identified there are other issues created by the betrayal that you need to understand as well (e.g., empathy). Does your IC specialize in infidelity? It would be worth your while to find someone who has expertise in the subject.

redacted

[This message edited by firenze at 7:08 AM, December 12th (Wednesday)]

A post over in JFO reminded me of another thought to toss into your mix. Just a thought that I'm tossing out for you to consider as you work with your BH.

As a generalization, I think men value the opportunity for "first sex" with a new partner significantly higher than women do. Again, this is a generalization and I realize there is a giant range of individual variation. However, for men, these opportunities are not plentiful. In fact, for most men who aren't Brad Pitt or George Clooney these opportunities are few and far between, and they require a lot of investment of time and energy to create.

In contrast, for a woman who is at least moderately attractive, sex opportunities are not just plentiful, but women are often beleaguered by men trying to get into the pants. Again, a generalization I realize, but for a man a sex opportunity is a rare and therefore somewhat precious thing, whereas for a woman sex opportunities are often a bothersome pressure of quotidian life.

When a man commits to a woman, one of the decisions he makes internally is that he will forego sex opportunities with other women if/when they present themselves. Men tend to view this as a significant sacrifice that we make as part of our commitment to a woman. Because of our involvement with family, it's not likely that a lot of sex opportunities will present themselves to us, and when they do, they may come along at points where we're not getting a lot of sex at home, perhaps because of babies, or fatigue, or such. So when we let them pass unanswered, we are really letting go of something that would be valuable to us if we acted on it.

In this context, when a WW acts on an outside sex opportunity, one of the ways it is hurtful to a man is that sense of unfairness. He has decided to forego this, and it is possible that there have been a handful of real opportunities that he has chosen to not act on. Women, in my observation, often don't get this intuitively because all they need to do is go outside and they could potentially have sex with any of dozens of men they encounter within minutes.

Again, all of the foregoing is based on generalizations, but there have been several long threads in the "General" forum about this concept and you see this stark gender breakdown on this issue in those threads. My hunch is that part of the hurt your BH is feeling is that sense of unfairness -- you arrogated to yourself the freedom to experience that "new sex" thrill, while he was living a life in which he had chosen to forego that no matter what. The element of realizing that you created a private one-sided open relationship, at a time when he himself was foregoing the few opportunities that presented themselves to him.

If he is feeling this, the circularity of this hurt is that, in betraying him, you gave this "new sex" opportunity to another man on a no-strings-attached basis. I think you can see how this creates a feedback loop of bad feeling. He's hurt and betrayed. He feels cheated because he sacrificed something that you did not. And he feels sexually humiliated because you in fact gave another man precisely the valuable thing he sacrificed to commit to you.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:14 PM, November 29th (Thursday)]

At the risk of propagating generalizations, what Butforthegrace has posted was very relevant to me.

Unfairness doesn't really do it justice. He sees your A as a "fun" diversion right now. One that he has denied himself due to the commitments he made. Knowing in hindsight he was not given the same in return. It is normal and natural for him to "regret" not taking those opportunities.

That is why I said that you need to share with him your feelings and thoughts about this and how you see that today. He, being a guy, has idealized your A. He needs to see just how damaging it was, not for your M/relationship, but to you personally.

He needs to understand your frame of mind at the time and not see it as you choosing to get some strange, but a very misguided way to cope with a life that was very painful to live in. One so painful you had to create another life to escape to when that pain go to be unbearable. Granted there were dozens of healthier ways to deal with that, but he really needs to see that nothing positive came from it on your side either.

Talk to him about your feelings past, present. Be very vulnerable. He is desperately trying to understand. Either you help him or he will make his own up. I guarantee you that your reality versus his perceived reality will be a lot less painful for him.

Flawed, there is a ton of good advice from posters here, but I have just 1 thing to add. It's in regard to this part of your original post:

I realize that although I had good intentions of wanting to be completely open and honest in an effort to strengthen our relationship, I placed a huge and incredibly unfair burden on him by waiting until I felt secure enough that he wouldn’t want to leave.

You trapped him. There are many destructive results of your A, but this feeling of being trapped is huge for a BS. I'm a BH and my WW revealed her (most recent) A to me when she was 8 months pregnant. I felt incredibly trapped, just like your H now feels incredibly trapped in the life that you two created, which he has just recently found out is a lie.

Had you told him before you got married, he could leave. He could make decisions based on what was best for him. Now you have 2 children, shared finances, a life you've built together for years... based on a lie. It is MUCH harder for a man in his position to leave now than it would be pre-marriage. By keeping this a secret you have exponentially increased the amount of "unfairness" in this situation, and I promise he's raging inside that he has to choose between his unfaithful W and his children, not to mention his bank account, house, etc.

You trapped him. You waited until you had the life you wanted, the man you wanted, and your lives were inextricably woven together before revealing your dark secret. That betrayal is as bad as the A itself. Acknowledging how selfish and unfair the situation you've put him in is critical.

I felt incredibly trapped, just like your H now feels incredibly trapped in the life that you two created, which he has just recently found out is a lie.

This is how I feel as a BS - trapped and I would add tricked into a trap. I struggle with this every day (was just thinking about this on my way to work this morning so this really resonated with me).

When I made my huge move, changing jobs, leaving friends and family, to be with my WH I was filled with hope and excitement. I wasn't scared, wasn't worried, was just thrilled at the prospect of a new life together (we'd been together for years but had lived apart for most of it and when I moved it was pre-A and it seemed everything was great for us). I remember driving through my soon to be new town on my last visit before I moved permanently, which I'd been to a million times before, and everything looked great to me. I loved my WH, I thought his job was about the most interesting thing I'd ever understood anyone to do, and even the buildings and architecture which was so different from where I'm from seemed fascinating to me. Now, 4 years later I look at those same things and I hate them. I hate his job (where his AP is) and I despise hearing about it. I hate being here most days because I feel like I was tricked into this life and now I'm trapped for at least the next few years. I even hate my job which before was my "dream" job, and I worked SO hard to get it, and now most days I wish I could just leave it behind, but what stops me is that would be career suicide. That's usually the only reason. Some days are worse than others, but most days I have that feeling that I want to run away from this, never speak to him again, and just forget this part of my life ever happened. It all feels like a waste - and I was lied into this waste of a life I have. It can be debilitating.

I say this not to make you feel worse, but to help you understand what your BS is likely feeling, or some semblance of that, and to understand what kind of work it will take on your part not only to help him get through that but also to help you understand that your choices have consequences for people other than yourself. And those consequences in this situation are profoundly bad. And I don't buy it when WS say they didn't really grasp it was going to be this bad for their BS (I'm not saying you said this or feel this) - because everyone understands at least on a baseline level what this would do to someone, which is why they hide it. Thinking about and accepting the consequences of your actions not only on yourself but on your partner is KEY to a marriage or partnership or any relationship in general. So understanding why you were able to set aside those consequences for you spouse - understanding what inside of you made you capable of doing that, is key. Don't give up, even if it doesn't work out with your spouse, because feeling good about yourself generally doesn't happen when you know you are betraying your own values.

My WH has been depressed and largely miserable over the last 1.5 years of his A, and I don't think he completely grasps (or even grasps at all) that part of the reason he was so miserable was that he was betraying himself when he was doing this. He thought he was so good at compartmentalizing that he could block it off from her and me, and maybe he did, but he couldn't block it off from himself because he knew what he was doing and it made him feel really really really bad - so he shoved those bad feelings aside and convinced himself of his own lies in order to continue. Letting go of that desire to protect yourself from yourself is the first step. Once you can get out of your own way you will find that the rest gets easier.

resented him for not attending to the needs that I never communicated to him.

Focus on that for a why. Why does someone else have to make you happy. Why does someone else have to make you feel worthy? Is it fair to resent someone else for something you should be supplying to yourself? I get that we all want to feel wanted and needed. I get that we want to have intimacy in our relationships. The thing is that if those outside sources aren't being met, we shouldn't be self destructing because they aren't. We should be able to draw upon on own internal self worth. You have to learn how to be enough for yourself in a healthy way. Having your own self confidence, esteem, love, respect without it being provided by someone else.

Sanibelredfish – Thank you for your feedback.

It is absolutely essential that you identify your whys, own them, and work on developing healthier, safer (for your BS and M) coping mechanisms. After all, there will come a day when your children don’t occupy all of your time and you may feel neglected again. What happens in that situation if you haven’t done the work to fix what allowed you to cheat the first time? Reading the story of Mrs. Walloped might provide some insight.

I completely agree with this. I’ve actually been reading Mrs. Walloped’s story and you are right – she has some incredible insight. Reading her story has prompted me to ask myself a ton of why questions and to start digging through the depths of my mind for honest answers. It seems odd to feel as if I know her through the words and the parts of herself that she’s donated to this community. I’m grateful for the vulnerability of her and others who have shared so openly and whose stories are helping people like me navigate through our own shit.

Also, your comments on where your IC is focusing raised some concern for me. It almost sounds like the IC thinks the time is somehow a salve for the betrayal, and that problems in the relationship, rather than the brokenness inside you, were the cause of the cheating.

Thank you for this perspective. I must take responsibility for the fact that my IC has been focused more on current relationship issues than really understanding all the whys that made me vulnerable to having an affair and then lying about it for 12 years. Immediately after DDay I really didn’t “get it” and felt lost trying to figure out what to do to help heal my BS. I used IC as a place to vent about my own pain and confusion around how to handle my BS’s (justified) fits of rage. I have learned so much in the past 6 weeks since DDay, and as I’ve learned, I’ve been applying my deeper understanding of infidelity to my IC sessions. I’ve explicitly asked my IC to rewind and spend our time identifying my whys and strategies for addressing them. So, I am hopeful that we will get there.

Butforthegrace – Thank you for contributing this insight.

My hunch is that part of the hurt your BH is feeling is that sense of unfairness -- you arrogated to yourself the freedom to experience that "new sex" thrill, while he was living a life in which he had chosen to forego that no matter what.

We have had many conversations about the unfairness of my betrayal and lies. This is a huge issue for my BS and what I did is exponentially more unfair because I hid the truth from him for so long. Not only did I secretly step outside of our commitment to one another, I stole from him the chance to decide whether to stay with me. I stole his life. So here we are – we love each other, and we love the life we’ve built together even though we built it on my lies. And now I’ve told him everything and that’s unfair because his choice to stay or leave now is so much more complicated than it would have been 12 years ago or if I had told him before we married. He has been so incredible the past couple of days – reassuring me that he loves me and wants to do what it takes to reconcile. I am so grateful and humbled by him.

Numb&dumb –

He needs to understand your frame of mind at the time and not see it as you choosing to get some strange, but a very misguided way to cope with a life that was very painful to live in. One so painful you had to create another life to escape to when that pain go to be unbearable. Granted there were dozens of healthier ways to deal with that, but he really needs to see that nothing positive came from it on your side either.

Talk to him about your feelings past, present. Be very vulnerable. He is desperately trying to understand. Either you help him or he will make his own up. I guarantee you that your reality versus his perceived reality will be a lot less painful for him.

We talk about this a lot. I see how difficult it is for my BS to believe that what I did had nothing to do with him and everything to do with what I was going through at the time. I was just telling him the other night how what I did has brought me only shame and sorrow, so much that the only way I’ve been able to live with it is by compartmentalizing and dissociating from it. As if locking it away in the depths of my mind would free me from it. I’m working on being more vulnerable, to fight my instinct to withdraw and shut down. It’s incredibly difficult and I wonder if it will always be so difficult, and that scares me. I’m terrified of falling back into old habits once we’re on more stable ground. I told my BS that I’m hoping the work I’m doing now and in the months and years to come will reprogram my default settings, but I really don’t know if that’s realistic. I guess in a way I’m clinging to my fear of complacency in the hopes that I won’t embrace it ever again.

TwiceWounded – It hurts how right you are about this.

Had you told him before you got married, he could leave. He could make decisions based on what was best for him. Now you have 2 children, shared finances, a life you've built together for years... based on a lie. It is MUCH harder for a man in his position to leave now than it would be pre-marriage. By keeping this a secret you have exponentially increased the amount of "unfairness" in this situation, and I promise he's raging inside that he has to choose between his unfaithful W and his children, not to mention his bank account, house, etc.

After I read your post, I asked my BS if this is how he felt. He told me this is exactly how he felt at first, but to a much lesser extent now. I think he feels less trapped now because deep down he knows that he wants to stay and reconcile. He knows it’s his choice to make and that even though neither choice is ideal, he feels how deeply I love him and I feel how deeply he loves me and we both know that what we have is worth fighting for.

ThisIsSoLonely – Thank you for sharing your painful story and perspective to help me understand what my BS is going through.

My WH has been depressed and largely miserable over the last 1.5 years of his A, and I don't think he completely grasps (or even grasps at all) that part of the reason he was so miserable was that he was betraying himself when he was doing this. He thought he was so good at compartmentalizing that he could block it off from her and me, and maybe he did, but he couldn't block it off from himself because he knew what he was doing and it made him feel really really really bad - so he shoved those bad feelings aside and convinced himself of his own lies in order to continue. Letting go of that desire to protect yourself from yourself is the first step. Once you can get out of your own way you will find that the rest gets easier.

This is exactly how I felt and what I did to be able to live with myself for so long. This week our MC said something to the tune of, “you can’t tear down a defense without replacing it with something.” You’re right that I’ve been protecting myself from myself for years and now I’m trying to learn how to replace that defense with openness and honesty and I know it’s going to take time to build.

Zugzwang – Thanks for pointing this out.

Focus on that for a why. Why does someone else have to make you happy. Why does someone else have to make you feel worthy? Is it fair to resent someone else for something you should be supplying to yourself? I get that we all want to feel wanted and needed. I get that we want to have intimacy in our relationships. The thing is that if those outside sources aren't being met, we shouldn't be self destructing because they aren't. We should be able to draw upon on own internal self worth. You have to learn how to be enough for yourself in a healthy way. Having your own self confidence, esteem, love, respect without it being provided by someone else.

This is definitely something I’m working to understand. I’ve been trying to be more conscious of negative self-talk and am trying to check myself on it, but I have a long way to go.

Hello Flawed, I'm going to offer a somewhat specific suggestion that I think will help your BH's healing. Go as much as possible into detective mode and do whatever you can to refresh your memory about the details of your A, and use this to flesh out the timeline.

Many betrayed spouses want to know every little detail of an A before they can R. Even the "dirty details". It's a "the devil you know versus the devil you don't" sort of thing. For some it can be easier to recover from something you know than from something your imagination goes wild creating. In addition, there is the "intimacy hole" that an A creates. You shared intimacy with another man that you kept from your BH. This is a way for him to recover that segment of your intimacy. As painful as the details may be, it is less painful than not owning that segment of intimacy.

As you go through this, be patient with him as he asks the same questions over and over. He's trying to come to grips with the magnitude of the betrayal, which is difficult when he doesn’t actually know the magnitude of the betrayal. Answer the same questions over and over, but use the process as a way to try to elicit more memory. Everything you can do to put meat and bones on this and fully describe it as much as possible will hasten that process.

From your BH's thread in JFO, there was a bit of trickle truth from you on these kinds of points. TT is probably the worst thing a WS can do after DDay. Don't TT. They call it “Trickle Truth” but they should call it “Torture Time”. Now is the time to be nakedly, brutally honest with him, even about your heart and its feelings, which I reckon you do recall. If you dug the AP, say so. Honesty helps more than the pain of the details hurt, if you get my meaning.

One of the unique difficulties of A's discovered or disclosed long after the fact is that memories have faded and details are often lost. I gather you weren't on social media at that time, so there wouldn't be that. Do you keep a diary? I reckon not. Young people nowadays rarely keep diaries.

But there are some unique aspects here. You moved to a new city. You must remember when you moved, and when (approximately) you started the retail job where you met the AP. Is the city where you live in a place where there is a marked change in seasons, with a rainy or snowy winter? Your A was in the spring of a year, as I understand it, ending around May?

As I also understand it, you didn't spend the night with the AP. You returned home to your BH each time you had sex with the AP. I would imagine that the walk(s) of shame may be memorable. How did you get home. Taxi? Drive yourself (after partying -- drunk driving, shame on you)? Other? Do you remember the weather in your walk(s) of shame. That is a thing many can recall -- shivering against the cold as you approached your front door, mind racing with what you might say to him if he wakes and asks you where you've been.

Also, I gather there were just a handful of sexual encounters. Like 3 or 4. I find this unusual for a limerent A where you had about 6 months working with the guy, and you had plenty of opportunities because of your late working hours. Why were there so few sexual acts? And, on the flip side, why did you engage in sex the few times it happened, as opposed to all the times you didn't. From the AP's perspective, he was a young dude with a hot new female sex partner. I think he would have had sex with you as often as possible. I reckon you were the limiting decider.

So here is my suggestion. Create bookends, using the first time and the last time.

As to the first time:

When did you start the retail job. How did you get it? What was your first day on the job like? Did you meet the AP in the workplace, at work? If now, where and how did you meet him? What do you remember about him in terms of first impression?

When did he first get onto your radar as a possible sexual partner? What happened for that to occur (I don’t mean “February 17, 2006, I mean “We flirted a bit at work, but after going out drinking with coworkers a few times it was clear there was chemistry between us”)?

When did you first decide you were going to have sex with him and why? By “when” I don’t mean “March 13, 2006”. I mean: “We had talked a lot at work, sort of flirty talk, I knew he was hot for me and I enjoyed the feeling of power over him. One night when we were drinking our talk turned very overtly flirty and sexual. He put his hand on my ass and I liked it. I knew then I was going to have sex with him, but we each had a significant other at home so we had to figure out a time and place to do it.” Or some such.

Where did you drive to? What was that time and place? I gather from other posts that you got into his car and rode with him somewhere. Where did you go first? A bar or club? His home/apartment? A friend’s apartment? A hotel? How did you get home after? Where was your car? Was it cold outside? Wet? What month was it? Was it near any holiday? St. Patrick's Day, perhaps? Mechanics like this often come back with memory review, and this can trigger more memories of the acts.

What were your thoughts/feelings upon returning home that first time? Were you shivering against the cold? Was it still dark? Was your BH still asleep?

As to the last time:

Why was it the last time? The AP was a dude with a hot woman who wanted sex with him. I'm a dude. I know what that’s like. Dudes don't choose to end that. You must have made the decision to end it (or, possibly, his girlfriend found out and confronted him). Had you decided that it would be the last time before the sex occurred? In other words, did you decide to have “one last go”, sort of a bittersweet goodbye? Or did you decide after the sex, something like “I can’t keep on doing this”? There was talk in another post about one non-drinking lunchtime encounter where you went to his home/apartment and did sex stuff in the shower. Was this the last time? Did it occur after your BH had intercepted the suspicious text? When did you get home from that? Was your BH there? If not, when did you see him next? What did you do?

By the way, you should add all of this level of detail to the written timeline of the A.

Once you’ve fleshed out the first and last times, use them as bookends. I gather there was at least one sexual encounter between the first and last. You must be able to at least recall returning home after that sex. Where was the sex? How did you get home? Was it dark? Cold? Raining/snowing? There was mention of you getting walked in on during one session. Where were you when this happened, and why were you having sex there (as opposed to somewhere more private)?

If you go through this, you may be able to recall whether there was one and only one “return home after sex” between the first and last, or more than one. That answers the question that is burning in his heart, which is whether there were 3 times or 4. As I note above, 3 or 4 encounters in context is not very many. Surprisingly few from my perspective, actually. Why were there so few? Was it because there were limited opportunities because each of you had a significant other at home? Or was it because for you the sex was just a way to keep his attention, and you didn’t put a lot of energy into frequent sex with him?

I wish you luck. I do think that the more you can focus on fleshing out a timeline for him with details like this, the quicker you two will heal.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:46 PM, December 7th (Friday)]

Flawed, stay with us. How are you doing?

Hello Flawed, I hope you're still with us. I think you are realizing by now that this process is going to be way longer, way rockier, and way scarier than you anticipated. It has been my observation that this is a common experience for wayward spouses. Part of the bundle of personality characteristics that enable a person to cheat include a failure of empathy, an ease with the process of internally minimizing the "badness" of the cheating. Cheaters seem very often surprised by the profound degree to which their cheating causes trauma in their betrayed spouse.

You should expect your BH's extreme emotional roller coaster period to last months. Like maybe even 6-9 months, possibly a year. You should expect that even after his roller coaster begins to smooth out a bit, it will be replaced by an anger that is so deep and so profound -- a seething rage -- that you will at times be afraid for your safety. Then comes what people call "the plain of lethal flatness".

Sexual humiliation, compounded by years of lying. It is a giant paradigm shift you are asking your BH to wrap his mind and heart around.

Often, what the WW does after DDay is as important, or even moreso, than what you did before DDay. That is, the betrayal is what it is. You can't change it at this point. But you can shape your post-DDay actions and every day is critical to whether your family remains intact.

R works when the WS rolls up her sleeves and digs in for the long haul, ready to do the work day/day out for years. This is your baton to carry, and you have to really want it because this will likely be one of the most difficult things you've done, possibly the most difficult. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and there will be periods where you are cold and wet and tired and hungry and feeling so much despair you just want to quit. Don't quit.

What does "doing the work" look like? We have already touched on some basics: (a) pursue your IC like your family depends on it (because it does) to figure out your "why's" and fix them, and (b) do not fail to remind your BH of your love and desire for him, and show him how this has waxed over the years, not waned.

But a critical piece is dealing directly with your BH. Do not back away nor retreat from him. Those moments where he seems most angry, or most ready to walk away from the marriage, those are the moments where he is subconsciously challenging you to fight for him, to prove to him how much you want him. As he sobs, you sit with his head in your chest, your arms around him as tightly as you can, and tell him that if he wants you gone he's going to have to force you out because you are not leaving. Remind him that he is the best thing that has ever happened to you, that you cherish him, and that you are not ever going to leave him of your own free will.

Be present for him. And do NOT trickle truth or minimize, at all. There was mention of FB friends with people from that period, and whether the AP ever popped up as a suggested friend under the FB friend algorithm dragnet. It's difficult to believe that he didn't ever pop up as a suggested friend, or appear in a photo on the feed of one of your mutual friends. I mention this specifically because a blanket statement like "I never thought about him since ending the A" strains credulity where we know your BH has asked you about the A from time to time over the years -- thus you had to have thought about him at those time at the very least -- and you have FB friends from that era.

Now is the time to be nakedly transparent and honest with your BH. I can't think of anything that can kill R more effectively than any form of dishonesty during the early period after DDay. This includes trickle trothing and even "shading" the truth. If he asks you what it was about the AP that made you desire sex with him, be honest about it. And don't try to pass it off by suggesting you didn't desire sex with him. You made conscious choices, several times, to engage in sexual interaction with him. To my knowledge nobody had a gun to your head. You did this because you wanted to do it. You desired it. If you were feeling overwhelemed by the gritty reality of real life staring you in the face, and this guy was Brat Pitt flirting with you for some escapist fun with his great body, say so. Tell him the brutal truth, even if you know the truth will hurt. The honesty will help you in the long run. And when he asks you what it was about the AP that you desired enough to desire him over your BH, be honest about that to. This was your reality. To heal, your BH has to be able to know and understand the reality. It is a form of intimacy, a glimpse into the darkest recess of your heart. In the end, the intimacy adds more value to the R process than the hurt that might be caused by the facts.

I believe that you two should be able to get through this. I'm rooting for you. My reason for this post is simply to highlight that the path through is likely way more difficult than you anticipated, and also that the chance of the relationship ending is significantly higher than you anticipated. If his heart does not become convinced that your heart is true, he may leave.

As to this last bit, it is incumbent on you to hold the marriage together, at least for the next year or so. In his heart, probably without knowing it, this is what your BH wants from you -- for you to prove to him how much you truly want him in your life. So prove it to him. I wish you luck.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:35 AM, December 12th (Wednesday)]

I’m still here, doing my best to stay buckled in on this roller coaster. I have so many thoughts swirling in my head that it’s incredibly difficult for me to process and make any sense of them let alone begin to articulate them. I go underground for days at a time because I am prioritizing writing to or spending time with my BS, reading, journaling, going to IC/MC, or getting get lost in my own head trying to identify and understand all that’s broken inside of me. I feel like I need to have something “important” to say or reflect on to post rather than spilling whatever is on my mind whenever it comes to mind. And this is exactly the thing in me that I’m fighting the hardest yet still giving in to – my instinct to hide from everyone, even internet strangers! And especially from myself. I never feel like my thoughts and feelings are valuable enough to share so I almost always keep them to myself.

I come from a long line of instinctual hiders and am desperate to tear down and replace this reflex with openness and authenticity; I’m learning that this is going to take a lot longer than I’d like it to. One thing I’ve been working on is being mindful enough to identify thoughts and feelings that need to be shared (secrets) vs. thoughts and feelings that don’t need to be shared (private thoughts). It scares me how awful I am at opening up at the right time and with the right framing. I know it’s going to take time for me to figure this out and do it with confidence and compassion rather than confusion and awkwardness. I’m trying, but I keep fucking up and creating damaging setbacks for my BS. I’m at the beginning of a very long journey, and I’m not progressing quickly enough for my BS to have faith that I’ll ever reach the destination. I know that I will get there, but I am terrified that I won’t get there before my BS gives up on me.

One major fuckup was recently telling my BS that I had been Facebook friends with the woman who caught me having sex with my AP in the bathroom at a house party since 2008 (2 years after the affair ended), and that I unfriended her about a week after our recent DDay. When I unfriended her and 2 other “friends” from that time of life, I was hurting and angry and never wanted to see their faces again or be reminded of the worst thing I’ve ever done. I was still looking for people to blame for my own unconscionable behavior. I had not even begun the process of really, truly owning what I had done or analyzing my whys. Since then, my BS has given me countless opportunities to tell him about this when we’ve discussed affair details by saying things like, “Is there anything else you’re hiding – big or small – that you’d like to tell me? Please tell me. I won’t get angry, I just want to know.” I’m still so good at hiding from myself that I would honestly answer “no” every time he asked because I had compartmentalized this “friendship” as separate from the affair details that I had fully disclosed. It’s truly sickening that I was capable of doing this and not being forthcoming about this critical information. It makes my BS doubt that I’m capable of overcoming this massive character flaw, it’s another nail in the coffin. When I told him about it recently, it was because I realized that it was a secret I’d been holding onto that I should have told already told him. I really fucked up by ever accepting her friend request in the first place, remaining “friends” with her through the years, and then secretly unfriending her. Completely inexcusable and devastating.

There was mention of FB friends with people from that period, and whether the AP ever popped up as a suggested friend under the FB friend algorithm dragnet. It's difficult to believe that he didn't ever pop up as a suggested friend, or appear in a photo on the feed of one of your mutual friends. I mention this specifically because a blanket statement like "I never thought about him since ending the A" strains credulity where we know your BH has asked you about the A from time to time over the years -- thus you had to have thought about him at those time at the very least -- and you have FB friends from that era.

I used to accept friend requests from anyone I knew (cue the need for external validation) and from her in particular because it made me feel better about the awful things I had done – that if she could look past my self-centered and slutty behavior then maybe I could too. Gross! Let me be clear – I am a very light Facebook user. I am more of a lurker, I like posts made by current coworkers and my closest “real” friends, and post very infrequently. On the very rare occasion I saw a post of hers (I recall a post from when she got married) or she posted “happy birthday” on my wall I did think of what I had done 12 years ago. I felt that familiar pang of disgust knot up my stomach. And then I shoved that pain right back down into the darkest corner of my mind and locked it back up.

That being said, before I unfriended this woman from my past I thought about searching her friends to see if she was friends with him and then didn’t go through with it because I really didn’t want to know. My BS is the one who told me she was in fact friends with him, and I am so relieved that my AP never popped up as a suggested friend, especially now knowing that we were one connection removed. I didn’t want to see the face of my AP ever again – the face I’ve spent 12 years trying to erase from my memory to ease my own guilt and shame so that I could live with myself. My BS believes it’s bullshit that I never searched for him or saw him on FB, and that’s what I get for lying to him for so long. But it’s true. I made a clean break with this guy and never wanted to see his face again, to be reminded of what I had done. I buried it so deep and tried to pretend like it never happened rather than own it and accept the consequences of it. I redirected my own guilt and shame into hatred towards myself and my AP because it was easier than accepting that I actually did those things. In the times I have thought about him in the 12 years since I’ve seen him, it has not been with a shred of fondness or curiosity but with hate and guilt and shame. The one curiosity I have had about him is wanting to know whether he still lives in our home city. I found it rather incredible that I had not run into him in 12 years and assumed he had moved at some point. I thought about searching for him to confirm he had moved and then decided not to because I was afraid to learn he hadn’t moved and that my BS and I would then live in constant fear of running into him. I’m rambling now, but the point is that it never occurred to me that I was one connection away from my AP all these years and that totally sickens me. My BS is rightfully hurt, angry, and disgusted with me. The fact that he hasn’t completely given up on me yet is an incredible gift that I truly don’t deserve.

Klaatu -

Flawed, stay with us. How are you doing?

I saw this post a couple of nights ago when I was rocking my youngest child to sleep and completely lost it. I couldn’t believe that a stranger on the internet could care enough to check in on how I’m doing at a time when I’ve never felt so undeserving of anyone’s care or encouragement. I don’t deserve compassion, but that’s what these words felt like at a time when I was feeling oppressive despair (albeit nothing compared to the pain my BS is experiencing). Sometimes I feel like I’m on the right track – showing my BS how much I love and respect him, not abandoning him even when he has nothing but vitriol and disgust for me, making progress on identifying and understanding all that is broken inside of me so that I can be a safe partner for him. And then I fuck up in such damaging ways that we reset to ground zero, as stated in the above example.

Buttforthegrace – Thank you so much for coming back time and time again with such incredibly helpful insight. I’m embarrassed by how right you are about this:

I think you are realizing by now that this process is going to be way longer, way rockier, and way scarier than you anticipated.

And I really needed this:

But a critical piece is dealing directly with your BH. Do not back away nor retreat from him. Those moments where he seems most angry, or most ready to walk away from the marriage, those are the moments where he is subconsciously challenging you to fight for him, to prove to him how much you want him. As he sobs, you sit with his head in your chest, your arms around him as tightly as you can, and tell him that if he wants you gone he's going to have to force you out because you are not leaving. Remind him that he is the best thing that has ever happened to you, that you cherish him, and that you are not ever going to leave him of your own free will.

Many times my BS seems to want more space, and I’m torn between yielding and wanting to cling tighter to him. My instinct is to grab him and hold him as tightly as I can but sometimes I’m afraid he really doesn’t want me to. I’ll keep holding him until he really won’t let me.

My reason for this post is simply to highlight that the path through is likely way more difficult than you anticipated, and also that the chance of the relationship ending is significantly higher than you anticipated. If his heart does not become convinced that your heart is true, he may leave.

As to this last bit, it is incumbent on you to hold the marriage together, at least for the next year or so. In his heart, probably without knowing it, this is what your BH wants from you -- for you to prove to him how much you truly want him in your life. So prove it to him. I wish you luck.

You are right about all of this. I am desperately trying to prove how much I love him, that I am madly in love with him, and that I am worthy of his love.

I am rooting for you and I believe others are too.

I had a belly laugh at your addition of an additional letter "t" to "ButTforthegrace". I think my wife might agree with your rendition more than mine.

I had a belly laugh at your addition of an additional letter "t" to "ButTforthegrace". I think my wife might agree with your rendition more than mine.

Oh dear! As our MC would say, "I wonder what Freud would have to say about that."

Hey Flawed, I just wanted to echo Butforthegrace's sentiment that you're probably starting to realize that this is going to take much longer and be much more difficult than you initially anticipated, not just because your BH has so much pain and grief and anger to work through, but because you're seeing now that you still remain in many ways no different than the 23 year old who had an affair and who several years later looked your husband in the eye at the altar and spoke lies that ultimately robbed him of years of his life.

I'm sure it's a depressing and disheartening realization, but it's also a good thing because self-awareness is probably the single most important element of personal growth. That impulse to hide and minimize, to base your decision making not on what shows your husband the most respect and love but rather what gives you the best odds of achieving your desired outcome - no matter the cost to him - is almost certainly your biggest flaw and your biggest hurdle.

One of the things that every WS who comes here is told frequently is that they need to learn to let go of the outcome. I think a good exercise for you is to work on internalizing this. Recognize that the decision of whether or not you will remain married is one that ultimately rests with your husband, not you. The only thing you have control over is what kind of person you want to be, and that remains true whether your husband chooses to stay with you or not. The best version of you is someone that your husband might be able to learn to trust one day because she treats him with love and respect and puts him first. Of course, that might not be enough and he might decide he needs to move on from you. I know you don't even want to contemplate a future where he's no longer your husband but instead a co-parent who moves on and marries someone else, but that's part of letting go of the outcome. Self-motivated change is the only real and lasting change. You can't just do it for him. You have to do it because that best version of you is the person you want to be regardless.

I really do think the two of you have a chance of working this out. It's going to require years of work and difficulty, but you're already doing a generally better job than most WSes at this point post-DDay.

As for the Facebook fiasco, just remember that anyone who knew about your affair and didn't tell him is his enemy, and anyone who is his enemy is yours as well and has no business occupying any space in your life, no matter how small. Thinking that the girl who walked in on you fucking your AP was somehow separate from the affair is obviously something that makes those of us on the betrayed side of the fence shake our heads in disbelief. But it sounds like that's registering with you now. Just keep on the lookout for stuff like that and always err on the side of honesty and disclosure.

Hello Flawed, sorry to piecemeal my thoughts, but sometimes my brain is scattered. Another thought to share that you should work into your grist mill: My sense is that your BH "knew" the whole time that something more than just a kiss had taken place between you and the AP. By "knew" I don't mean he had gathered information and verified anything, but rather his intuition told him this. Your demeanor, reactions, etc., upon discovering the text, coupled with his then thinking back to a time or two previously where you had been acting oddly. Thinks that make you go "Hmmm", as Arsenio Hall used to say.

This is doubtless something that frustrates him now, possibly at a subconscious level. The idea that if he had acted on his intuition back then, he might not have found himself in his current predicament.

Another layer of frustration to the mix of feelings he is dealing with.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:38 AM, December 13th (Thursday)]

Hi, Flawed! I am glad you continue to check in, you've been getting some amazing, diverse thoughts and ideas here. Especially from Butforthegrace (one "T")...read and re-read those posts. These SI forums offer the best free advice on the planet.

OK, you are obviously a very intelligent, educated lady...but, you have learned some hard lessons about this Reconciliation thing. Your painful FB revelation setback is one example. As many of us here have pointed out the full disclosure, no TT, no more lies, no more secrets, etc. is critically important.

You know the road to R is long (maybe years) and with lots of ups and downs...accept this and deal with it. Over time the peaks and valleys will moderate.

In addition to putting in the hard work, you need to stay strong...being a Wayward after DDay has moments of emotional darkness. Prior to my DDay I always thought of myself as an athletic, aggressive, confident, corporate tough guy...post DDay I was pathetically lonely, isolated, despondent, discouraged and depressed because of the shitstorm my cheating caused. These are normal feelings for a Wayward and many of us have walked in your shoes. You must stay strong for yourself, your kids and your anguished husband.

Fasten your seatbelt and go to work. Like many others, I am rooting for you. Hang in there kiddo...you can do this!

[This message edited by Klaatu at 10:06 AM, December 13th (Thursday)]