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I feel like this could be a tricky question only because I don’t think it matters how a women or I dress, men will still notice. Maybe a women dresses to impress certain type of men? I could go to the store with a simple shirt and sweat pants and that don’t mean a man won’t notice me or hit on me. I certainly don’t dress nice to impress men or feel in competition with other women. There will always be someone who will be prettier then me. I like to dress nice because I like to take pride in myself. And not all men have the same taste on how a women looks good either. Some men like the nice dress up type but others like the lay back look also. I think some people like to impress people because the nature of their jobs or maybe they feel judged by their looks. We live in a world that people will judge you no matter what. There is no right look for everyone because everyone has different taste.

I can say for certain, that when I go to the gym, there are young women there who dress in very tight yoga pants and low cut tops. There is no doubt in my mind they are there to impress others with their physiques and to attract males.

Conversely, there are also young men who wear the muscle shirts and spandex.

So, at least in the gym environment, there is definitely mate attraction behavior going on. It is really fascinating actually. Sometimes when I'm resting I'll just sit and people watch. It's hilarious watching women position themselves near good looking guys so the men can get a good look at them, and vice versa.

It's a massive preening dance.

LWP, you should see the gyms on military bases!

No. I dress for myself. If I get looks or a compliment then hey, kudos to me and I'll take it. Why not?

I think the only place I would say I'd be dressing a particular way for a man would be in the bedroom. However since DDay, just the idea of lingerie shopping triggers me since MOWhore obviously spent lots of time making those purchases for MY husband. Fuck him. I'm hella sexy enough! He's lucky to even have me. 😜

I can definitely understand how women have opinions on this. After all, these expectations or norms or whatever in regards to our looks feel like an umbrella over us all. Whether it's breast implants or these ridiculous butt implants or leggings or the gray in our hair, we all make choices as to what we are comfortable with on any given day or in any given year. Our attitude about this changes depending on our lives. Post-child birth and in the depression years around dday, I struggled to care about how I looked at all. Other times I was feeling confident and strong and chose a put-together look every day. Do we judge each other? Yes. Hopefully not too harshly, but we might have a few opinions cross our minds.

But the fact that men are deciding our attitude about sex and our willingness is an entirely different issue that seems to be related to their belief that we feel the attraction they feel (proven with research), even when we feel nothing. Or that our smile is for them or is a sign of sexual interest (also shown with research), when we are actually just in a good mood or enjoying life. Or that our friendship with them indicates interest (yep, proven with research) even though women can be friends with males and have no sexual interest at all indicates that men (in general, NOT all) seem to project their own feelings or beliefs onto the women they encounter. Is it biology or socially taught? I'm not sure.

Females will always want to fit in and feel approval like any other humans do, and they will dress to impress in whatever they feel looks nice for that generation or occasion. And many men, seemingly because (according to research widely posted online) they are projecting their own feelings about these women and their sexual interest or lackthereof onto the women they encounter, will have opinions. Unless men are open-minded enough to admit that these base assumptions about women are not based on fact and are instead a projection of long held beliefs of accessibility or exclusion or whatnot, we can't really have a discussion about this topic.

The incel websites are filled with men making judgments about women, their clothing, and their exclusivity. I remember a guy hitting on me once, and when I finally said something about leaving he said, "Fine, you f@ing bitch. Go." My turning him down at a bar during spring break changed entirely who I was in his mind, even though I had not changed at all.

So for those who believe that a girl wearing leggings is saying, "F@ck me" instead of "Don't I look cute! I just got these at Lululemon and now I look cute like everyone else!" that is projection. And it makes me sad. My almost 17 year-old daughter is the sweetesr, most naive, never-had-a-boyfriend girl you've ever met. She wears leggings every day because she feels cute and normal. I don't really like them, but that just makes me old. She wears college sweatshirts and gym shoes on some days, and on others she wears a cute, strappy shirt with a sweater--definitely more sexy. But she has no desire to have sex and isn't even very boy crazy, so she'd be nauseous at what people here have said. She dresses for herself and fashion and to fit in, and maybe so a nice boy will think she's cute, too. That's it. She is SO not about sex, and any idea to the contrary is pure projection. And I don't see any projection peeps having a desire to look inward on their beliefs; they're quite comfortable with their vulgar assumptions, as the research frequently supports.

" but the message you are sending is still "look at my butt" to a whole lot of guys. "

and THIS is the thing that needs to change. Change your minds, raise your sons the right way, call your friends on this bullshit guys.

" but the message you are sending is still "look at my butt" to a whole lot of guys. "

and THIS is the thing that needs to change. Change your minds, raise your sons the right way, call your friends on this bullshit guys.

You can certainly try. I was taught "not to look" and "a woman can wear whatever she wants". It doesn't make much difference, because, at the core of it, we're dealing with a force that's beyond our control.

Let me give you an example. I could try to convince my children that poop is a great smell. That they should enjoy that smell, and that there's no reason to try to keep that smell off you because it's a good smell. It doesn't matter, you're still going to find that smell offensive because, well, poop smells to us because it's something to be avoided. It's built into our evolutionary programming to avoid that smell (and also the smell of dead bodies) because of disease, preventing infection, etc. So, all the trying in the world, all the "but this smells good", it's not likely that it's going to be able to overcome the genetic programming to "stay away" from certain smells because they are dangerous.

The same exists for men when looking at women dressed in a sexually provocative way. It's going to activate the genetic programming that says "fertile woman, get ready". That's why sexy clothes work, it's because it's activating a deeply ingrained genetic program that we really don't have any control over (BUT WE DO control our actions as a result of that programming!!). But trying to teach "do not get aroused" is, IMHO, a fools errand. The best we can do is "don't look at her" and "if you do get aroused, don't show it/act on it".

Again, if this wasn't so ubiquitous and intrinsic to all of us you wouldn't see people act as they do. If only 1% of men looked and were impacted by it, most people would stop doing it. But it's much more uniform than that and that's not socialization or bad parenting, it's just the way we are as people.

You can certainly try. I was taught "not to look" and "a woman can wear whatever she wants". It doesn't make much difference, because, at the core of it, we're dealing with a force that's beyond our control.

Let me give you an example. I could try to convince my children that poop is a great smell. That they should enjoy that smell, and that there's no reason to try to keep that smell off you because it's a good smell. It doesn't matter, you're still going to find that smell offensive because, well, poop smells to us because it's something to be avoided. It's built into our evolutionary programming to avoid that smell (and also the smell of dead bodies) because of disease, preventing infection, etc. So, all the trying in the world, all the "but this smells good", it's not likely that it's going to be able to overcome the genetic programming to "stay away" from certain smells because they are dangerous.

The same exists for men when looking at women dressed in a sexually provocative way. It's going to activate the genetic programming that says "fertile woman, get ready". That's why sexy clothes work, it's because it's activating a deeply ingrained genetic program that we really don't have any control over (BUT WE DO control our actions as a result of that programming!!). But trying to teach "do not get aroused" is, IMHO, a fools errand. The best we can do is "don't look at her" and "if you do get aroused, don't show it/act on it".

Again, if this wasn't so ubiquitous and intrinsic to all of us you wouldn't see people act as they do. If only 1% of men looked and were impacted by it, most people would stop doing it. But it's much more uniform than that and that's not socialization or bad parenting, it's just the way we are as people.

Seriously???

I usually stay out of these threads but not this time. RIO, can you not grasp that no one is suggesting you (or some other generic male) should not be aroused or attracted. No one is even suggesting that you (or that other generic male) should not look or notice an attractive woman. What is being SCREAMED at the top of our lungs is that you have no right to make any assumptions or expectations that your attraction is returned. You have no right to make assumptions about the motivations of that attractive female. And you have no right to expect that attractive female to appreciate your attraction.

RIO, the most expensive item I own (obviously aside from house and car) is a Cartier watch (even pre-owned it’s still my most expensive item). I do happen to actually really like watches, and yes, I could have bought a watch that looks just like mine for much less $, but I own a real one for the same reason that the second most expensive item I own is a wedding band with actual diamonds rather than CZ. My wedding band probably costs less than most people’s here on SI, and almost assuredly less than your wife’s, so it’s definitely not a piece of jewelry that would impress anyone—but it’s got diamonds nonetheless because that’s what *I* like and what I wanted. The exact same ring can be found on eBay for $25 in CZ, and anyone looking at it wouldn’t know the difference—but *I* would. Same for my watch—there are thousands of them out there that look exactly the same, and let’s be honest, nobody is going to lean down three inches from my wrist to read “Cartier” in teeny-tiny letters on the watch face. Fuck what anybody else thinks—the “real” stuff is what *I* like.

I usually stay out of these threads but not this time. RIO, can you not grasp that no one is suggesting you (or some other generic male) should not be aroused or attracted. No one is even suggesting that you (or that other generic male) should not look or notice an attractive woman. What is being SCREAMED at the top of our lungs is that you have no right to make any assumptions or expectations that your attraction is returned. You have no right to make assumptions about the motivations of that attractive female. And you have no right to expect that attractive female to appreciate your attraction.

I agree I have no right that my attraction is returned. But I do have every right to make assumptions about a woman dressed that way. In fact, that's my most basic of all rights, the right to free thought. And while I might be DEAD WRONG in my assumption or expectation, I still have every right to make it. Just like I have the same right to assume that a man in a suit is likely going to a business meeting and not heading to the gym. I could be dead wrong in that assumption, maybe he has gym clothes in the back seat and just left a funeral. But, it doesn't matter, my assumption is "business man heading to a meeting" and even if it's wrong, I have every right to that assumption. If I find that I'm wrong enough, eventually I may start to think "huh, guy in a suit, probably squat day at the gym for him".

And your right, I have no expectation or right to have my attraction returned. But if I don't have that right (the right to control another person's thoughts/actions) why on earth should she have the right to my thoughts and actions? "You shouldn't think "sex" when you see a woman walk by in a mini-skirt". OK, fine, maybe I shouldn't, but I do. I don't think "Wow, she probably really likes that dress" or "Man, I wonder if that's couture". Nope, I think sex, and, without going to broad, I'm pretty sure a lot of other men do too. But we're just as free to our thoughts as women are to theirs. If I dress up like a clown, you're probably going to think "he's a clown heading to a party somewhere" when maybe I'm just a guy who likes multicolor hair and messing with the people in the MCD drive-through window. But I don't get to tell you want to think, you think what you think. And I'd say that the same basic right applies to men too. Maybe I shouldn't think sex, but I do, as do many other people. That's reality, not the way it "should be" but the way it is. And my argument is that the no amount of social conditioning will change that because it's a basic and primal force. It would be like showing me images of perfectly cooked food and saying "don't think about eating". Well, it doesn't work that way, you don't get to tell me what to think, and, even if you do, I'm hungry and pictures of food I really like are going to make me even more hungry. Because, like sex, food is one of the basic core drives of our species.

Fuck what anybody else thinks—the “real” stuff is what *I* like.

And by all means, your free to express that and buy the things that you really do enjoy. That's not my goal at all in that analogy. I also own expensive watches and jewelry, but I don't really "like them", I like what having those things says to others about me. "Is that a Rolex"? Yes it is, and that tells some real quick a lot of things about me. Now, that said, I also own expensive things that are a blend. A car is a great example of this, I really do love my car, if you debadged it and nobody had any idea what it was or how much it cost, I'd still love it because of what it can do and the performance of it. But I also love it because other people know what it is, and it says something about me. And then there are other things that, no matter the cost, are just for me. The best example of this is probably something like my computer; it looks like a regular computer. Nobody would EVER know it's anything special. But oh my, is it special. It's a hand built rocket that has more power that 20 average computers sitting right next to me humming away and letting me spam up SI on a regular basis. ;) But about 5 people in the world have even seen it, and of those who've seen it, 0 of them have any idea of what they are actually looking at or how "special" it is. The value of that item is in what it does ONLY for me, nobody sees it, nobody knows I have it, and it doesn't require any "social proof" at all, it just IS an amazing machine if you know about it or not.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 12:35 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday)]

RIO, you got me there. You're right. You certainly do have the right to make all the assumptions you want. What you don't seem to grasp is how utterly wrong you are about the majority of your assumptions. But yeah, absolutely. Assume all day long.

But it's ridiculous to assert that it's impossible to teach young men to think a different way than yours. You have to realize that you are an outlier and not exactly the representative of typical male thinking. I've been here since 2011 and I'm not sure I've ever seen another member quite so invested and preoccupied with sex and sexuality.

Which leads me to this:

We should be teaching our sons, that it's absolutely wrong to disrespect a woman or her body based on what she's wearing.

Ahhh, the conversation that never happens.

We've been talking for decades about "how women should or shouldn't look. for men."

Somehow it's never about "how men should or shouldn't look. at women."

Because, you know, one is obviously a "choice," while the other is presented as an "immutable fact of nature."

I've been having that conversation with my nephews and my sons for their entire lives. I'm a sexual abuse survivor who has also been sexually harassed in multiple different situations. And I have absolutely talked to the young men in my life about girls/women. How to treat them. How to be friends. How to understand and respect boundaries It's one of the issues that is very important to me and I encourage other parents of boys/young men to do the same. Because that is truly the only thing that will change this culture.

You have to realize that you are an outlier and not exactly the representative of typical male thinking. I've been here since 2011 and I'm not sure I've ever seen another member quite so invested and preoccupied with sex and sexuality.

Yeah, I win the Internet!! Totally kidding, and you may, even probably are right. I test "high" even in the male scale when I take the "how sexually driven are you" type tests. My pysch told me "I'm high drive, but not even close to the highest he's seen". So, I do accept that I'm "above average". But, honestly, you know where I think I'm really an outlier more than that? If there was a test for "unfiltered truth", that's where I think I'd truly be a 1 in 1000 person. And let me tell you, that's both good and bad, a lot of people can't stand me because I can't keep the "filter" on for more than about an hour at a time because, well, that's just who I am. I hate social functions where we all walk around and act like we're friends when we know, none of us really give a sh*t. I have almost no tolerance for "social graces", especially not with friends (which is what I consider this community, even though I think there are at least a few members who would vehemently disagree).

So yes, I think I'm an outlier. But I also think that if more people were more truthful, especially IRL, you'd find that I'm not as "far out" as you might think. I know a whole lot of men who spend their lives really preoccupied with sex. A lot who've seen their lives fall apart because of sex. And a lot who do immeasurable damage to society and other people to get sex. I was one of them when I was younger (although I didn't know it at the time), but I spent my time in a big group of men in HS/college where, if anything, I was the outlier in the OTHER direction.

My preoccupation with sex/sexuality has always been there, it's always been a big motivator for me. But, of course, my W's A had a big impact on my level of fascination with it now. Digging into the "whys" has left me with a wonderfully fractured mind about this topic, something I often wind up taking out on my "friends" here.

Somehow it's never about "how men should or shouldn't look. at women."

Actually, I was taught not to look. And that's what I try to do, I try to avoid looking as much as possible. Sometimes I fail, but I was certainly told not to look in the first place. Forgetting sexuality for a moment, it's just real hard NOT to see something that's right there in front of you, especially if you think "don't look at the guy over there with the wizard cap on". Good luck with that (not looking). It's just a very hard standard to live up to. Kind of like saying, "Don't think about baseball".. Well, what are you thinking about right now? Yup, baseball (and I'm sorry for that!).

assumptions and evolutionary urges have nothing to do with each other RIO. So, you tried to make the point of men not being able to control themselves and gave a shit analogy (pun intended) and then said hey, you can assume anything you want. You can, but your assumption is wrong and has nothing to do with evolution.

Do you have daughters, Rideitout?

I feel that men change their more vulgar assumptions about women by watching their daughters grow up. They are not as quick to assume or judge females after knowing their own little girl and seeing her as something other than a sex object. Idk. The men I know just seem to get it now in a way that they didn't 20 years ago.

Well, sewardek and hfssc beat me to the punch. I was going to respond to the things in Rio's post that you two did. It is the intention that matters.

I intend to be comfortable. I also go to the yoga studio every day. I wear tight yoga pants or leggings because it's easier and more comfortable to do yoga in those. If I have to run errands, I do it on the way home from yoga. So, i'm always out in tight pants. My intention for wearing them is to be comfortable in yoga. I have absolutely 0 intention of attracting anyone.

Yep, assume away, but you're wrong. Again, projecting what you think and do onto others.

And, yes, as I stated before, I have these types of conversations with my boys all the time. They understand. That doesn't mean they don't notice and are not attracted to people they see. But, they know not to assume that those people want their attention.

Of course, you may not know if the person is trying to attract attention. You could certainly approach them, but don't be surprised if you get a very negative reaction.

ETA, it's not the message we are sending. It's the message you want to receive.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 1:17 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday)]

No, I dress for me & the venue, although the majority of places I go wearing clean cowboy boots is considered dressy! lol

seriously though, I dress for me - most of the time it is jeans, boots and a cute shirt. Other times, I could rock the runway (in my mind at least!)

I don't dress for anyone else, never have - what you see is what you get. Although I will admit right after my WHs affair, I made damn sure I looked oooh la la whenever I knew I would be seeing his AP. By oooh La la, I rocked my Dominant Biatch side, so she'd never forget who ruled my world. (ME)

Here is a summary of one study (there have been many) which pretty much proves the truth of gender misperceptions. Why these misperceptions exist? I'm just not sure.

"We begin our discussion of sexual intent constructs and methods by describing the first published sexual intent study. In this study, Abbey (1982) began with the hypothesis that men, as compared to women, perceive more sexuality in female targets. This hypothesis was tested using an experimental paradigm in which unacquainted male–female dyads of White college students had 5-minute conversations with the goal of getting to know one another. The conversation session was observed by a second, unacquainted, male–female dyad. Thus, members of the first dyad served as interactants (e.g., they were both raters and targets), and members of the second dyad served as raters only. Following the session, the raters and interactants gave estimates of targets’ behaviors that were conceptualized to be related to sexual intentions (e.g., how flirtatious, promiscuous, and seductive the targets were trying to be) and also estimated targets’ reciprocal sexual and relationship intentions, including how sexually attracted to each other and how interested in dating they were.

Abbey (1982) found that male raters and interactants perceived higher sexual intent in female targets than did female raters and interactants. In addition, male raters and interactants were more sexually attracted to the female targets than female raters and interactants were to the male targets. There were no gender differences in ratings of the female targets’ friendliness; thus, it appeared that judgments related to sexuality were the critical distinction between men and women’s judgments of the female targets. Abbey (1982) also found that male raters and interactants saw more sexuality in male targets than did the female raters and interactants. Because of this unexpected finding, Abbey (1982)concluded that men have a general bias toward overperception of sexual intent in behaviors, not one limited to female targets."

The thing that really bothers me is that men, it seems here on SI, prefer to believe women are lying rather than admit that their perceptions are simply impacted by projection and wishful thinking and aren't accurate. I find this upsetting as it reminds me of abusive relationship dynamics, sexual harassment reasoning and even rape.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:36 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday)]

Just because I was thinking about this and it bugged me....

Where WH worked where he had his affairs, they all wore uniforms. No real opportunity to dress sexy or whatever...Yet the woman there, especially OW2 (LTPA) was able to get his attention. And he theirs... Of course.

From reading all of this I have decided that I will buy myself a pair of jeans this weekend. See being a bigger gal pants wear out in the upper/inner thigh. I've been to cheap to buy jeans opting for just stretchy pants. I haven't been able to find the flare at the ankle pants I used to love... Then Mil gave me a whole bunch of stretchy pants that look like jeans but aren't because they didn't fit her. I've been happy in them and WH loves how they hug my butt. But...Once when shopping I was putting large items onto the bottom of my cart and was bent over. I heard a man say "wow" as he came into the isle behind me thought nothing if it. WH then remarked when I got home while I was bent over putting stuff away that "those pants really don't hide a thing do they". I was wearing "granny panties" as WH puts it so I didn't think I was showing off my butt at all...But to him and that other guy I guess it did. Or maybe that guy was totally freaked out/grossed out at my large wowwy?

Note to self, bend at the knees

HFSSC thank you! I am going to teach my son differently.

I'm honestly sick and tired of ooogling men or hearing them comment anything about what I'm wearing.

and then this...

I can say for certain, that when I go to the gym, there are young women there who dress in very tight yoga pants and low cut tops.

Um hellooooo this is like most gym outfits you see. I just can't anymore!

Do you have daughters, Rideitout?

No, I do not. But, if I did, and they were getting ready to leave the house in a mini-skirt, I'd have a talk with them about the type of attention they are going to attract dressed like that. That does NOT MEAN they shouldn't do it, or mean that they deserve to have ANYTHING bad happen to them. But it does mean that they are going to attract male sexual attention, right, wrong, ugly or not. They will. And I'd make sure to tell them that. The rest of your post, I agree, I do think that changes the way men view women for at least some fathers.

Of course, you may not know if the person is trying to attract attention. You could certainly approach them, but don't be surprised if you get a very negative reaction.

I'd change this, you WILL not know if the person is trying to attract attention. The only way to tell is to use your eyes and make a judgement call. The woman wearing a suit to work, done up professionally, looking great but not at all sexualized; probably not trying to attract attention. You might go up and give it a swing, but, my dollar is on "she's dressing nicely for work" and you're totally misreading it, no matter how attractive you might find her. That same woman wearing yoga pants and a sports bra to the grocery store? Well, she might have just finished her yoga class. But there's a good chance she's doing that to get a reaction from the other people in the store. Shoot, when I go from the gym to the grocery store, I change! So that I don't send the wrong message walking around in a tank top. But if I was looking to meet someone? I'd probably leave the tank top on instead and attract the attention instead.

ETA, it's not the message we are sending. It's the message you want to receive.

Not even a little bit! I do NOT want to get that message from women at all (as a married man)!! It is the message I DO GET, but not the one I want to get. Frankly, I want it to be the way a lot of the posters are saying it "should be". Huh, look at the girl over there in the produce aisle wearing yoga shorts that are 2" long and a sports bra. Interesting outfit choice for the grocery store. OK, now, back to the hunt for the mustard, why do they hide it in this store!! But that isn't the message I get. I get the "look at meeeee" message from her. Should I? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the message I get.