SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is something that has actually been written about a fair bit by professional women. Basically, they get to a certain age where they're no longer the hot young thing and suddenly men pay them a great deal less attention. Perhaps some prefer it that way, but most of what I've seen is complaining about feeling invisible. All I have to say about that is, welcome to how life has always been for almost every man who doesn't look like Hugh Jackman. Enjoy your stay.

I have a feeling there's a profound disconnect between what men imagine it must be like to be hit on constantly (I've heard some say that it would be a dream come true for them), versus the reality. Imagine this, "men who don't look like Hugh Jackman": you get hit on several times a day, but not by women who look like Taylor Swift. Oh no - the women who hit on you have halitosis, stare at you with a hard unblinking stare that says they're not listening to a word you say but rather thinking of how to covet you (as if you have no will nor choice of your own), introduce themselves by grabbing at your anatomy in a way that hurts, and if you're very lucky, don't smell like they're covered in urine when they try to stick their fingers or their tongues on your face or down your throat.

Would you really feel that upset if that kind of attention stopped?

Regardless of your answer, please don't try to shame women who don't like it by claiming they'll regret it when they feel invisible someday instead. Try putting yourself in our shoes instead and imagine why we wouldn't like it.

Do you know how slimy and scared and angry it makes you feel to have two guys slow their car down to blow you kisses and say "hey maaaa!" in front of your children? Because it's a 90° day and I was wearing short shorts and a very thin silk tank top?

Not really. But I do know what it's like to walk down the street and have men looking at you like "if he turns right down there, we're gonna jack him" because I walked past a bad block in a suit in the middle of the day. And I also know what it's like to have a child in an expensive car with me, have some guys pull up along side and say something like "holy f**k man, nice f**king car; I'll bet that b*tch rips", all the while I'm sitting there, mouth agape at them not seeing the 8 year old that's in the passenger seat who just overheard the verbal diarrhea that was thrown my way. That's as close as I can get, and, yes, both feelings suck and neither should happen, but both WILL happen if I stroll through the wrong neighborhood in a suit and/or drive an expensive car well, most places where it's not common to see cars like that.

I live in one of THE most ridiculously liberal hippy PC SWJ neighborhoods in NYC. I'm deadass when I say that people spray paint the word KALE as grafitti around here. The nursery schools ban superhero clothes because they don't want to reinforce gender sterstereotypes and violence.

Well, I will say, as I read some of the responses, I was wondering to myself, "where do these people live"?! And NYC was certainly one of the places that came to mind. Look, I'm going to say this and probably upset some people, but, if you don't want to have these experiences, while this isn't the "answer we want to be true", the "right answer" is "move to f**k out of NYC". You know when the last time was that I had to worry regularly about having to walk home late at night from work past the bad neighborhood? I can tell you the last time, because the day after that is the day I packed up and moved out of the city. Should I have had to move out of the city so that I could walk safely on the streets at night? No, I shouldn't have. But, you know what, moving out of that s**thole (sorry, had to get it out there) was the end of the problem for me, right or wrong, that was the last day I was concerned about random crimes of physical violence. The problem is that big cities have so many people that the law of large numbers comes into play. It might only be 1 in 500 guys that would say things like were said to you, but, you know what, if you see 5000 guys a day, well, pretty good chance you're gonna run into someone who's a dick. If you see 50 people a day and your in a place that's far less anonymous, chances are good that you'll have this happen much less frequently/at all.

There are plenty of s*tty people out there. Interact with enough people every day, you'll find at least some who are going to do all kinds of horrible things, catcall, mug you, try to steal from you, key your expensive car, etc, etc, etc.. No argument from me on any of those points. But we can realize that and react to it, insulating ourselves from those people, or we can say "f**k that" and wade into those situations and think "This shouldn't be a problem". Insulating makes your world smaller, "f**k that" makes you world more dangerous.

Would you really feel that upset if that kind of attention stopped?

No, I wouldn't. But I'm also a little confused. Is it "attention from men" that's the problem, or is it "attention from ugly men with halitosis and a bad dentist" that's the problem here? Yes, being hit on by women who look like Taylor Swift all day is a pipe dream for many men, and being hit on by women who look like Shrek sounds annoying and like it could be bothersome. But is that really the issue, it's not "men" it's "ugly men" that are the problem? No judgement from me, frankly, I think that's what's often being said in these threads; a man walking up to a nicely dressed woman on the streets of NYC who happens to look like Josh Duhamel would saying "wow, that's a beautiful dress" is entirely different than a man who looks like Steve Buscemi walking up and saying the same thing. But, if that's what we're saying, that's an impossible standard, how on earth would anyone know if someone walking by finds them attractive or not without saying something/asking?

On a side note, I've often wondered why men catcall at all. Does it work? If you catcall 100 women, with 1 of those 100 call back and say "Hey Papi, come on over here" and sleep with them? I'm just not exactly sure what the reason/payoff is for people who do this. Is it just to intimidate, and if so, why? Why intimidate a random person you'll never see again, what's the upside?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 6:10 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

From what I've found, despite my description of unpleasant men who have hit on me, it's actually not about their looks. There have been guys who were objectively attractive who hit on me - but for the look in their eyes. It terrified me. Plus the whole age difference and being a teenager was pretty off-putting... Happened/happens during my adult years too, but remember, a lot of this starts when we're underaged. It's not like a switch flips when we're 18 that suddenly makes that feel OK.

More than that, more than appearance, it was the physical liberties they took. When someone is a complete stranger, drives up to you, and asks to give you a ride with the line "I'm not going to kidnap you and I'm not going to rape you. Get in my car!", well... That's alarming, isn't it? When someone who is pretty much a stranger begins trying to run their hands across your entire face, or gropes you from behind, can you see why that would be alarming?

And the problem with that, of course, is - once that happens, especially if it happens more than once, you tend to have a startle reaction when someone catcalls you, even if they don't happen to cross any physical boundaries. It gives you the same feeling of invasion. It gives you flashbacks and your body adopts a similar fear response as the other times.

No idea why people catcall. I don't catcall others, because I would feel like I was invading their space and making them uncomfortable if I did it (just thinking about doing it makes me uncomfortable and makes me liken myself to my abusers). No idea if it works on others - doesn't work on me or any of the people I know.

It's ANY MAN treating a woman like a sexual object instead of a human f**king being.

Exactly how hard is this for you to understand?!?

I don't care what he looks like. If he's catcalling or being creepy he's obviously not a man I want to associate with.

If you take nothing else away from this thread, please try to take this: what women are describing here is an experience that can be (and frequently is) triggered by our existence in our own bodies, regardless of when it happens, where it happens, what we're wearing, or what we're doing. It happens to a young woman I know 5-7 times a day, because she works in an urban farmers market where men understand that she can't leave the counter, and she can't shut them down brusquely because "the customer is always right," and they can leer at her because they "paid for the privilege" by buying something like a pot of tulips. Telling her how sorry she'll be when men don't do that anymore, or that she benefits because the boss probably hired her for those assets in order to sell more tulips --- on and on, the message is that she put herself in that position knowing the risks, that she enjoys it or should have the sense to enjoy it, that she will miss it when it's gone. She doesn't enjoy it, at all, and she cannot put it on and take it off like you choose what car to drive. It is a function of being 22 years old and female, with large breasts, a small waist and junk in the trunk. None of which she bought at a dealership to impress someone. It's just who she is.

I ain't no holla back girl!

The men in my life do think or act this way. And, please, don't tell me that they just don't do it in my presence. They just don't do it. They don't think of or treat women like sexual objects.

It is really sad to me that there are seemingly intelligent, educated men on here who do think of and treat women like that.

Is it just to intimidate, and if so, why? Why intimidate a random person you'll never see again, what's the upside?

Because --and I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being honest and sincerely glad you asked -- it's not about getting sex. It is about displaying dominance and power over someone who you know is not going to give you sex, even though you want her to, and putting her back in her place. That's why it doesn't matter what she's wearing. The fact that she is NOT issuing the invitation is what incites the catcall. In fact, one of the most common catcalls is asking a woman why she isn't smiling.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 7:02 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

Ya know I used to get a lot of attention when I walked around with a testicle hanging out. Called it free-ball Saturday. Third sat of the month.

Eventually I decided if folks were gonna stare at it, then it should stare back and glued a googly eye to it.

After a while the police tracked me down and made me change the day to Thur.

Probably not all that relevant to this conversation but I didn't want to read the 10 pages of this an not share somethin.

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 7:29 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

Thank you for that, NTV.

NTV I expected a fart joke.

A googly eyed testicle comes close though

In fact, one of the most common catcalls is asking a woman why she isn't smiling.

Somewhat of a non-sequitur: Brie Larson, the actress who plays Captain Marvel, was being harassed by some internet trolls for this exact thing. Her response was to paste out-of-place smiles on the Marvel male heroes. If you haven't seen it, you should check it out! Freaking awesome response!

Hmmm. I wonder... next time a person asks me to smile, perhaps I should try smiling psychotically? Imagining biting off their nose does bring a certain smile to my face... Only half kidding.

But RIO, is finding people attractive actually a problem? Don't we all see people and think "damn"? As long as you can reel that in and relate to that person as an actual person, what's the big deal? Attractive people are everywhere. Not a day goes by when I don't see some man whom I find attractive, but it hardly disturbs me or keeps me from acting like I have some sense when interacting with them.

As mentioned above, I live in an area FULL of very fit hot young men. I mostly think that's awesome, lol, but it's not a problem for me. If I'm at the grocery store I tend to see hot young men in tight t-shirts and I just smile and let that bring joy into my day. Yay for them for being so cute and yay for me that they lifted my mood for a moment. What is different for you? Is there a predatory aspect to it or something? I don't see the problem.

No, there absolute is not a problem.

But RIO hit the "problem" on the head.

People (women or men) who dress provocatively, who are clearly looking for attention, but then cry foul when they get attention from the "wrong" person.

I can damn well guarantee that if you dress provocatively, and this guy hits on you, it's "harassment."

But this guy? Winning!

So, the problem becomes one of hypocrisy.

I want attention, but only when, how, and from who I decide. And if you are a guy who doesn't fit the parameter? You're "the problem."

So, how, EXACTLY, is a guy to know if he's "the guy" either way?

I'm a guy and I see two issues here:

1) Women are sick and tired of being looked at, talked at, yelled at, drooled at, and pawed at like a sexual object.

2) Men are sick and tired of being looked at, talked at, yelled at, accused at and assumed at like a sexual predator if they so much as try to talk to a woman and DON'T happen to look like Hugh Jackman.

How many of the world's 3.8 billion women really honestly have to worry about being raped or sexually assualted by a man? My guess is at least half of them.

How many of the world's 3.8 billion men really honestly have to worry about being raped or sexually assualted by a woman? My guess is maybe 5 or 6.

So #1 is a much worse issue that #2, we all agree.

So, what to do?

The root of the problem is men wanting sex with women. So how do we get men to NOT want sex with women. By giving them something ELSE that they want to have sex with MORE than women.

What could this thing be? I believe the technology of the 21st century will find that thing. I don't know what it is, but once the technology finds it, women and men will truly finally be able to coexist as equals.

The root of the problem is men wanting sex with women. So how do we get men to NOT want sex with women. By giving them something ELSE that they want to have sex with MORE than women.

No the root of the problem is that men seem to only find vidation and love through sex AND see woman ad only being sexual objects to that end.

The solution is for men to find validation within for their own self worth and to be taught that woman are not for self gratification.

I have a feeling there's a profound disconnect between what men imagine it must be like to be hit on constantly (I've heard some say that it would be a dream come true for them), versus the reality.

This^^^

has nothing to do with women who DO dress provocatively. To say those women AREN'T looking for attention, but just dress that way to "feel good about themselves," is really being dishonest.

To make this clear - I'm talking about people who dress provocatively (men or women); no one should be randomly harassed.

No the root of the problem is that men seem to only find vidation and love through sex AND see woman ad only being sexual objects to that end.

The solution is for men to find validation within for their own self worth and to be taught that woman are not for self gratification.

You're proving the point:

You've lumped all men in to sexual predators.

I can do that too:

The solution is for women to find validation within for their own self worth and to not think that validation comes from attracting men.

(per my experience with my WW)

Not really. But I do know what it's like to walk down the street and have men looking at you like "if he turns right down there, we're gonna jack him" because I walked past a bad block in a suit in the middle of the day. And I also know what it's like to have a child in an expensive car with me, have some guys pull up along side and say something like "holy f**k man, nice f**king car; I'll bet that b*tch rips", all the while I'm sitting there, mouth agape at them not seeing the 8 year old that's in the passenger seat who just overheard the verbal diarrhea that was thrown my way. That's as close as I can get, and, yes, both feelings suck and neither should happen, but both WILL happen if I stroll through the wrong neighborhood in a suit and/or drive an expensive car well, most places where it's not common to see cars like that.

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse because you don't want to concede that you're totally off base here.

I'm not talking about wearing expensive clothes or driving and expensive suit in a lower socio-economic ("bad") neighborhood. I'm talking about trying to peacefully coexist and mind my own business, and getting harassed by strange men randomly. This has also been going on since I was about 12 (thin as a rail, skinny knobby knees, zero boobs, dressed fairly neutral/borderline tomboyish).

You know when the last time was that I had to worry regularly about having to walk home late at night from work past the bad neighborhood? I can tell you the last time, because the day after that is the day I packed up and moved out of the city.

The location doesn't matter, because it's not like I only have ever experienced being catcalled or harassed in NYC. By that logic, then there are several states down south, places in Canada and Europe that I should stear clear of, too.

And, what I wear doesn't matter either, because I've been harassed in jeans and hoodies with my hair up in a messy bun.

The other day I was riding the subway through "nice" neighborhoods around 10am. After a few stops, the majority of the people on our car got off and there was one man, in his 30s/40s sitting across from me. I had a jacket, hat, and scarf on, and the moment I realized that it was now just the two of us alone on the subway car, I immediately became more alert -- put my phone away, sat up straighter, kept an eye on him out of the corner of my eye.

He had given me zero indications that there was anything wrong -- he was dressed well, playing with his phone, minding his own business. But as a woman, a situation like that puts you on guard.

Although, honestly, it really doesn't matter all that much, because a few years back after the NYC Marathon (meaning the subways were pretty packed and there were extra police presence), I witnessed this creep rubbing himself and approaching three women, and then when he stood up to stand over one of them, a knife fell out of his pocket. So that was chilly November, in the middle of the day.

is entirely different than a man who looks like Steve Buscemi walking up and saying the same thing.

On a side note, Steve Buscemi lives in my neighborhood and he's a pretty lowkey, quiet guy. I've never been harassed by him in the grocery store, but have peacefully passed him by in the produce section.

Is it just to intimidate, and if so, why? Why intimidate a random person you'll never see again, what's the upside?

IMO (meaning not based on any studies), yes. It's a power thing, and they get off on making random women feel unsafe and threatened, because there's a fine line where you have to quickly assess the situation snd figure out if you can say, "fuck off," and keep walking, or if you need to smile and figure out a way to politely escape so they don't make it worse.

I'm just a dumb guy, but to me it seems like most ofthe time, females may dress sexy with just one guy in mind.

Wrong picture of Brad Pitt, I think:

It's about the attitude you portray, not your face. Though your face can sometimes be a reflection of your thoughts. Some people don't hide it very well and give you a stare you could describe as "predatory". Do we always have the criteria to describe it? No. But many times, your gut will tell you. That feeling of terror.

Perhaps we're wrong. But for those of us who have had scary experiences, can you really blame us for being hyperaware? Being hyperaware could potentially save our lives.

Men are sick and tired of being looked at, talked at, yelled at, accused at and assumed at like a sexual predator if they so much as try to talk to a woman and DON'T happen to look like Hugh Jackman.

I find this to be an exaggeration. It's not that a man tries to talk to a woman - it's what he says, how he says it, and when he says it (and this goes for any gender in any one of these roles - I'm mentioning this example about guys because it seems to be guys who are taking exception to this, on this thread at least).

Really, without making big conjectures, try for a moment to inhabit each of us who describe our experiences to you. Try watching those videos about catcalling. Hell, watch the videos of men who decide to test our experiences by disguising themselves as women (which is completely different from being transgender, let me make clear) and literally try walking in our shoes in order to see from our perspectives - there is at least one video I know of where an actor dresses as a woman specifically to experience and understand sexual harassment better. Try to understand where that spark of fear comes from.

You do acknowledge how bad it can be, which I appreciate. Try to understand that most of us aren't generalizing against men - we're not persecuting you as a gender. We're naming an experience we've had and asking for understanding, if not compassion, on why we struggle. We're naming a desire for basic safety we don't feel we have.

This^^^

has nothing to do with women who DO dress provocatively.

Perhaps not. But then again, neither did the point I was responding to.