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I'm just a dumb guy, but to me it seems like most ofthe time, females may dress sexy with just one guy in mind.

Which guy?

And I could be in sweat pants and a sweater and my WH thinks I'm sexy, he's said so!. So exactly how is a woman to dress so that we aren't throwing out the sex vibes to you guys?

I think I get it. I imagine being leered or ogled by a man who thinks you are physically attractive but doesn't know you is akin to a woman being interested in me based on me wearing nice clothes / expensive car. There is a subtle line where small interest from an attractive woman is flattering but when it becomes clear that the attraction is to your material objects or capabilities instead of you it's insulting. There's also an underlying threat associated with a woman attempting to find a way into my wallet.

That's why I don't bejewel my testicles anymore. Nothing really says I've got too much money than a diamond ornamented silk testicle bag.

But many times, your gut will tell you. That feeling of terror.

Perhaps we're wrong. But for those of us who have had scary experiences, can you really blame us for being hyperaware? Being hyperaware could potentially save our lives

Very true.

Don't get me wrong - 99% of women would not be able to fight off the average guy.

That is just not true for men, and it makes for a very different dynamic.

But the point still stands: If you don't want (extreme?) attention, don't dress like this:

That's why I don't bejewel my testicles anymore. Nothing really says I've got too much money than a diamond ornamented silk testicle bag.

We're naming a desire for basic safety we don't feel we have.

But, here's the thing. NONE of us have it. It does not exist, your chasing something that's an illusion. Should we have it? Of course we should! Do you have less of it than I do? Yes, i think that you do. But I most certainly DO NOT have basic safety assured to me, in fact, I can near promise you that there are entirely legal and socially normal things I could do that will nearly 100% of the time lead to physical assault of one type of another. I gave an easy example, but there are 100's of them, when I'm in Brazil, I roll around in an armored car with armed guards because white, English speaking business people are targeted there for ransom; right, absolutely not!! I could rent a scooter at the airport and drive right through the favelas though, and I should be able to, suit, tie, scooter.. Why not? Well, because, the reality is, in Brazil, if you want to be safe, you have to take steps to be safe. It's a lot less guaranteed to you there, in fact, it's so bad that it's almost the reverse, a guarantee that you will NOT have it if you persist in renting the scooter and "going at it" the way the locals do. And there are places like this all over the world, including down the street in the local city ghetto.

I think your upset that you feel like men have this basic right that women do not. We don't. Trust me, I've been assaulted, I've been harassed and I've been threatened. Maybe not as much as you have, I admit that may be the case, in fact, it probably is. But a smaller guy than me is also probably more threatened/assaulted than I am. The world is NOT fair, it's just "the world" and you can choose to live in that reality or you can try to change it, but, on this particular issue, I'm not sure this is actually "fixable". The strong have always preyed on the weak and likely always will, no matter how wrong we all think it is, that's the way of the world. React accordingly and make sure you're protected and able to bite back, that's my mantra and the one I'd encourage other women to take. And really, if you're getting catcalled every day, consider moving to someplace where that doesn't happen. They do exist, I've been there, and a lot of those places are lovely. Why hang out in an area where you're not wanted and respected?

And rio, before you ask if my decorated ballsack holder was tiffany's or cartier, I'm gonna head that question off because I had to get mine custom made to allow for the googly eyes. It did come with a neat gold banded elastisilk coozy for my pecker though. Wore it once cause I didn't want to stretch it out.

I'm just a dumb guy, but to me it seems like most ofthe time, females may dress sexy with just one guy in mind.

If you mean your partner/boyfriend/husband, sure. I do agree that many women want their partner to think they look attractive/nice. They're definitely not dressing up for the deli clerk at the grocery store to creepily stare at them though.

But the point still stands: If you don't want (extreme?) attention, don't dress like this: 

My shorts have always covered my butt cheeks, but that doesn't seem to prevent unwanted male attention, because..... I could be wearing jeans and a loose hoodie and still get harassed.

If you don't want (extreme?) attention, don't dress like this

The reason I want to caution you against this kind of thinking is as follows: it's "easy" to say that about daisy dukes. But what about the many other types of dress women wear, many of which can be quite conservative, but don't seem to deter the exact same experiences of harassment that a woman with daisy dukes might have?

It puts disproportionate responsibility on a woman to not wear daisy dukes, which DOESN'T solve the problem. A person who chooses to harass you will do so regardless of what you wear. They are the problem.

The needle can slip. So what happens if all women get shamed into not wearing daisy dukes? Next thing we know, folks will shame women for wearing jeans, especially if they happen to be form-fitting. Why? Because the harassment didn't stop, and folks are looking to place the responsibility somewhere, and for whatever reason, placing the responsibility on what she's wearing is most convenient. And then once those jeans are shamed away, what then? There will always be a moving needle unless we confront those responsible: the people who do the harassing. Does that make sense?

Besides, we don't shame men out of wearing Speedos. So why shame women away from wearing daisy dukes? Why the double standard?

Regardless of whether you agree with me or not (to all folks in general reading this), thank you for listening.

"But, here's the thing. NONE of us have it"

you have a LOT more than women. And you know this.

We're asking for men to corral their crap so we feel safer.

Rio,

So you're saying that a person, male or female should move, dress differently and just expect to be harassed cause it happens to all of us so oh well?

No! The whole idea is to change the root of it all so this doesn't happen.

If it takes castrating every male rapist so damn well be it. Let's get harsh about it then. Not just accept it because it happens to everyone. You assault someone you get thrown into jail for life, or worse. You steal you lose your hand. Is that what it's going to take?

And your risk of sexual assault on a daily basis is not even comparable to the daily harrassment and assault that woman experience. No matter where we live. No matter what we wear. And I'm not discounting that they s happens to men it does. So let's make the punishment.for hurting someone, anyone damn hard.

We're asking for men to corral their crap so we feel safer.

And your welcome to ask. Just like I'd ask the thugs to corral their crap and let me pass by unmolested in my suit. Probably not going to happen though, even though I think we all agree "this should not happen" reality is, it does. A MUCH more effective approach is to take personal responsibility for your own safety and assume that people are out to and will hurt you if you're "slipping". I feel like I've said this 100 times, but, it applies here too; is that right? No. It is reality? Yes. And the best antidote to that reality is "don't drive an expensive car into the hood" (generalized to: "Attempt to draw the least amount of attention possible") and, if you are in a situation where you have this happen, be ready to respond not with "You know, Mr. Gangbanger, my personal autonomy is being impacted negatively by you trying to take my computer" but with something a bit more understandable. "You see that bulge; it's not because I'm happy to see you, it's because I'm carrying a Glock 19". That generally ends the my rights vs your rights discussion rather quickly.

No! The whole idea is to change the root of it all so this doesn't happen.

Good luck. I'm sincere when I say it, and of course, that's should be the goal. But it's literally NEVER happened in the history of humanity. And I don't see it happening today, tomorrow, 10 years from now, or 100 years from now. The strong will prey on the weak. You can put in draconian laws (which I'd fully support), but that has been shown to have a minimal impact. The real solution is, and always will be, IMHO, take personal ownership of your own safety. The government isn't going to give it to you. The laws aren't going to give it to you. Explaining to bad people why they shouldn't be bad won't do it. The only "thing" that will guarantee your safety is if you, personally, take that as your responsibility.

Someone here mentioned gynoids, I think that will help the situation somewhat because women will be less pursued for sex. But will it stop muggings? Simple assault? All the other things that aren't sex based at all that bad people do to good people every day? No, it will not. A Glock will though, or at least will give you a fighting chance, no matter how your dressed, what kind of car your in or where you're walking, a weapon is a fantastic equalizer and a wonderful way to ensure your own safety, even when you're doing things that you maybe shouldn't do if you'd thought about it a little harder (Ferrari in the ghetto, for example).

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:50 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

you have a LOT more than women. And you know this

Sorry, I hafta disagree with this. I mean from just a perspective of physical safety, I can't tell you how many time I got my ass handed to me growing up because I didn't listen to country music or because i didn't play on the football team or because i talked to the wrong girl in high school. And i often carried a knife to school because shit could escalate. I grew up with the threat of violence.

I think your upset that you feel like men have this basic right that women do not.

Hmm. Both correct and incorrect. How to explain this so you'll understand what I'm saying?

Do you have less of it than I do? Yes, i think that you do. But

Maybe not as much as you have, I admit that may be the case, in fact, it probably is. But

You say this too lightly. I am fully aware that no one in this world is safe; I've seen more than I'd like to of that. But to have your safety near-constantly threatened blatantly, not just "in a bad area" but wherever you are? Your own home, your school, on a walk to the store, on the way to the doctor's office, in the doctor's office itself, etc.? Could you live like that, RIO? Not just when you go to Brazil or pull out some bling or whatever, but rather, like BraveSirRobin and so many other posters on this thread have said, simply by walking around being who you are?

And really, if you're getting catcalled every day, consider moving to someplace where that doesn't happen. They do exist, I've been there, and a lot of those places are lovely. Why hang out in an area where you're not wanted and respected?

1) Where, exactly?

2) What makes you think we all have the means to do this?

The strong have always preyed on the weak and likely always will, no matter how wrong we all think it is, that's the way of the world. React accordingly and make sure you're protected and able to bite back, that's my mantra and the one I'd encourage other women to take.

Most certainly. There are consequences for self-defense, unfortunately. I've experienced them, and I know both men and women here have too. So it really leaves you with a choice of whether you'll be a victim or be a violent person, doesn't it? I chose violence. But wouldn't it be nice if people who saw these things happening chose to stick up for each other, so a person doesn't have to make that kind of terrible choice?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 8:50 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

Sorry, I hafta disagree with this. I mean from just a perspective of physical safety, I can't tell you how many time I got my ass handed to me growing up because I didn't listen to country music or because i didn't play on the football team or because i talked to the wrong girl in high school. And i often carried a knife to school because shit could escalate. I grew up with the threat of violence.

If I'd been present while you were being threatened, I promise, NTV, I would have stuck up for you. And if anyone else was around witnessing it, they should have as well. We should be able to count on at least some of the people around to look out for each other instead of turn a blind eye. I'd like to think that not all of humanity are total bastards. But it's up to us to be those people who are otherwise.

Go to the OW website and ask that same question. My APs dressed to get my attention. AP2 shared a text message to me from AP1 that she intentionally dressed "slutty" her words in the text to get my attention. My Aps were in their mid 20s if it makes any difference. Like I said in the other thread. Media nurtured this outlook for years. You can watch any show or movie and the prostitutes aren't dressing like grandma. They show skin because showing skin sales. Did swimsuit models and Victoria Secret Angels along with Playboy bunnies start all that to empower women? Or was it started to get money for selling what they sowed in women and men that men wanted and desired? If there wasn't some truth behind it, then it wouldn't be thrown out there in movies and TV shows that women dressed a certain way to get attention. Our district for some unknown reason decided to put on the play Legally Blond. It wasn't appropriate IMO. Yeah, they did a whole set on "Bend and snap" to get a man's attention. That is what they were teaching to our girls...to bend and snap. Not all women do it for attention or to get outside validation. Yet, some do. I bet if you went on the OW website and asked, how can I get my man's attention with dress from his wife's...you would get a lot of advice from women that dress to get validation and attention and I would guess they aren't going to tell you to wear a jogging suit. When I was cheating, I had befriended my store employees. Most were women in their 20's. Amazing how every post was some selfie taken in the mirror or at stores with revealing or tight clothes on asking for opinions or likes. I would say 2 out of the 13 never posted pics like that. So, the whole thing isn't just about men and men being pigs or something. Media has a hand in it and that is made up of women and men.

If I'd been present while you were being threatened, I promise, NTV, I would have stuck up for you.

while I appreciate it, I have friends and we stuck up for each other. Sometimes all our asses got kicked. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it meant getting messed with until we were alone and then getting our asses kicked. Sometimes it would turn into a glorious 20 on 20 rumble and I'd get to use a pipe or a chain. Having a chick stick up for any of us would have meant more fights later.

I think your upset that you feel like men have this basic right that women do not. We don't. Trust me, I've been assaulted, I've been harassed and I've been threatened.

And when you have been assaulted, has anyone questioned you about what you were wearing, or stated or implied that if you had not been wearing that then the assault would not have happened? I didn't think so.

I don't think that many men go out EXPECTING to be harassed, whatever they are wearing. But many if not most women DO expect to be harassed or assaulted (sexually or otherwise) - whatever they are wearing - because that has been our experience.

eta: and one other thing. It's one thing to be attracted to how someone looks when they are dressed in whatever way turns you on, but it's up to you (learn to) to control your behavioral response to that no matter how 'natural' you think it is.

When you feel the urge to take a crap, you don't just do it on the spot you go find a toilet. The urge to defecate is most definitely natural, but that doesn't mean that you can do so any time any where.

You alone are responsible for your own behavior, not anyone else, no matter what they are wearing or aren't wearing.

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 9:05 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

while I appreciate it, I have friends and we stuck up for each other.

That's where we're different, I'm afraid.

Having a chick stick up for any of us would have meant more fights later.

Hmmm. Why?

And when you have been assaulted, has anyone questioned you about what you were wearing, or stated or implied that if you had not been wearing that then the assault would not have happened? I didn't think so.

I don't think that many men go out EXPECTING to be harassed, whatever they are wearing. But many if not most women DO expect to be harassed or assaulted (sexually or otherwise) - whatever they are wearing - because that has been our experience.

Thank you for this, ZMW. It puts another layer of trauma on when you're blamed for your own assault or harassment.

To me there seems to be two slightly different sides to this thread.

1. The actual question: Women, When You Get Dressed, Is Your Goal to Impress Men?

To this I would say for the most part no. Occasionally I dress to impress a specific man (my wh), although honestly I can't say that's something that's happened recently. Mostly often when I dress up nicely and put in a lot of effort it's to impress people in general and feel good about myself rather than to specifically impress men.

I'm sure that more generally speaking there are women who dress more often to impress men. I'm also sure that there are a bunch of men out there who dress specifically to impress women. Not sure why women should be singled out for this behaviour.

2. Should women dress with the goal of impressing men?

Honestly I don't get the outrage over how some women choose to dress. There's a general tone from posts that women are inviting unwanted attention from men with their clothing and that the solution is to change how they dress.

Seems to me the problem is the attitude that how someone dresses defines how they should be treated and that's what needs to change.

Sorry, I hafta disagree with this. I mean from just a perspective of physical safety, I can't tell you how many time I got my ass handed to me growing up because I didn't listen to country music or because i didn't play on the football team or because i talked to the wrong girl in high school. And i often carried a knife to school because shit could escalate. I grew up with the threat of violence.

I had the same experience. I grew up in a rough neighborhood/area, and I experienced a lot of violence. Broken nose, scars on my face, all of it. Women are not the only victims of crappy men. Yes, women are the primary victims of rape, I do believe that, but I also believe that men are by far more likely to be involved in non-sexual violence than women. I can't name a single guy I went to HS with that didn't wind up in at least one fight by the time they were 25. And some of them were bad, I have a friend who lost use of an eye, another who can't cut his hair too short of you can still see the stitches. I only say this because, it seems that a lot of people here seem to think men walk around in the "safety bubble" that women can't break into. We don't, at least I don't. The world is decidedly NOT safe, react accordingly.

But to have your safety near-constantly threatened blatantly, not just "in a bad area" but wherever you are? Your own home, your school, on a walk to the store, on the way to the doctor's office, in the doctor's office itself, etc.? Could you live like that, RIO?

No, I could not. I decided that for myself a long time ago and got out of the area where I felt like that on a daily basis. I would suggest you do the same if you feel constantly threatened like that.

1) Where, exactly?

2) What makes you think we all have the means to do this?

Specifically? Jackson, WY. :) But really, it's anywhere that's not wildly dense. Move to the suburbs, more to the country. I've lived in inner cities and I saw a lot of this behavior (both to women, men and myself) and I've NEVER seen it again since I left (well, except when I go back to cities). As to the means, that's a bigger problem. But most of the places that are "safer" from this type of stuff is are a lot cheaper than the places where this stuff is common.

And when you have been assaulted, has anyone questioned you about what you were wearing, or stated or implied that if you had not been wearing that then the assault would not have happened? I didn't think so.

No, but they said "WTF were you thinking going to that neighborhood". And they are right, if I hadn't decided to pretend I belonged in an area where I clearly did not, I wouldn't have had that particular assault happen.

I don't think that many men go out EXPECTING to be harassed, whatever they are wearing. But many if not most women DO expect to be harassed or assaulted (sexually or otherwise) - whatever they are wearing - because that has been our experience.

Depends. If I wear a blatantly racist shirt into a primarily black neighborhood, well, I'm going to expect to be harassed/assaulted. And I'm probably going to be right. If I'm wearing a suit in an expensive hotel, into a taxi, to an office building and then to the airport, well, no, I don't expect it. Because I'm wearing the "right thing" for those situations and I'm in the "right places" to be dressed that way.

Seems to me the problem is the attitude that how someone dresses defines how they should be treated and that's what needs to change.

Yes, that is the problem.

There's a general tone from posts that women are inviting unwanted attention from men with their clothing and that the solution is to change how they dress.

And that is a big part of the solution, both for men and women. No, it's NOT the whole solution, but it's a big part of it. People will still harass me occasionally if I'm wearing appropriate clothes. And I agree, that will happen more to women then men. But I can cut that amount of harassment down dramatically by not being the guy wearing a suit to the ghetto or my tank top to a business meeting. Situational awareness, it's a thing. ;)

[This message edited by Rideitout at 9:11 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]