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Can I ask YET AGAIN, why do so many (of the same) men not accept our answers? Why? Why do you argue with us and push your own beliefs rather than hearing us? Why do you mansplain our OWN reasons and answers? Why would you be right on this and judge us to be wrong?

Not at all to me. Though I don't think this is a wide polling area, like I said the responses might be different with a different set of women and their mindsets that catching a married man is their upmost goal. Or if single women were polled on the dating scene. Most of the responders were BW here. Women who are married. They seem more secure to me and not looking for attention and outside validation from anyone but their husband, so I would expect the answers that were given. Some wayward admitted to dressing to get their AP. Some admitted to dressing up to get their husband's before they were married. I think the more appropriate poll question would be did you dress to impress your husband before he became your husband. Maybe, how did you dress before when you were single? When you were on the dating scene? I dressed up and changed my whole wardrobe to keep my APs attention once they started flirting. Out were the acid wash jeans with holes in them. Out were the band T-shirts and movie tees. In were the shirts from PACU, Abercombie, American Eagle, dark colored jeans and sneakers that weren't basic white. My style changed to fit them. To impress. To get more attention. I just find it hard to believe that wayward women didn't do the same.

Children do not look provocative, and yet they are sexually assaulted.

Ya. I think my post about just that got overlooked.

No matter who you are, your gender, age whatever you do not deserve to be harassed, assaulted etc by anyone else. Period!

Oh good! We’ve reached the “Privilege” part of the ideology! It’s almost like the talking points are scripted!

Damn that straight white Christian male!

Dmw, sorry if this is slightly off topic...

Coco

The fact is that males do have a certain amount of privilege in USA society, especially if they are heterosexual, caucasian, and Christian.

As someone who fits those categories it's a little insulting. Anything I accomplish... guess what it was "privileged" and not something I worked hard to earn. Am I aware some folks think I have privileges they don't? Yes. Have I actually experienced any of these so called privileges? Not that I'm aware of. I worked very hard for what little I have. I understand you're applying it specifically to not being sexually harassed/ assaulted, but the word itself is used to attack me, right?

When do the three simultaneous jobs I had to work to put myself through college (my 4th try at college) while also having a newborn count for something? When does all the violence I endured growing up that allows me to navigate potential physical threats better count towards why I'm okay to walk some streets at night?

I get what you're saying and I understand how it wouldn't be or feel fair as most men don't experience something like that. Men do, though, have to go through different hardships that are equally unfair, at least in my experience.

"No matter who you are, your gender, age whatever you do not deserve to be harassed, assaulted etc by anyone else. Period!"

yep! But SOME of the men here are claiming that hey, you look like that don't be surprised, which puts the onus on us.

Zugzwang, it sounds like you are completely inline with many of the responses from women on this thread. Sometimes you dress to impress specific people. Generally it sounds like that's not the top priority for your clothing.

You are a WS, you've said you occasionally dress with the intention of being more attractive to people.

Same as many BSs have said.

My husband's AP on at least one occasion dressed up to appear more attractive to him. As her (at the time) best friend I'm perfectly aware that she did not normally dress with the express intent of attracting men.

Why would this not hold true for a wider polling audience?

Ugh this post.

Zugzwang: Go to the OW website and ask that same question. My APs dressed to get my attention. AP2 shared a text message to me from AP1 that she intentionally dressed "slutty" her words in the text to get my attention.

The title of my post was misleading, and because I felt like that's what some posters were alluding to over on another confusing post on the wayward forum.

RIO commented about his wayward wife and said that, "I think she'd be terribly upset if people didn't look! In fact, I know she would, because if she wears something like that and I don't immediately notice, well, she gets very upset. Because she's wearing it to be noticed, not because micro/mini skirts and 4in heels are a especially practical wardrobe choice."

Zugzwang also commented on that post saying similar things to what he said on this post about his APs.

AND SO THE REAL QUESTION I HAD, which was different that the title of this post, was:

Again, not trying to generalize, because I'm sure not every guy believes this, just like there arewomen who dress with the goal of attracting male attention, but... what I was wondering is, does this boil down to internal/external validation behavior?

Like the people that dress to impress themselves and wear what they want to wear have an easier time validating themselves? Whereas people that dress with the goal of attracting attention or illiciting a certain response from other people are seeking external validation/feedback/attention to feel good about themselves?

No, I don't think MOST women are wearing clothes to impress men, but I was wondering if the ones that did (because of course some women do, you can't say all women across the board) are ones leaning more towards a wayward mindset? They're dressing "slutty" on purpose because they have low self-esteem and they're seeking external validation from men to feel better about themselves?

My husband's AP was a very large woman (and I'm not trying to fat shame) that wore clothes that barely fit her. It wasn't a good look, because it just looked like, hmmm, your bra that's sticked over the top of your dress is too small for your boobs, so now your boobs are spilling out of your bra and giving you that weird four boob look.

You can be a larger person and still wear mini skirts and low cut shirts that actually fit you, so you don't look like you're literally about to pop all the buttons on your gaping shirt.

But what this post has turned into is women saying things like:

yesterday I was wearing a simple summer dress and a cardigan with my makeup done and my hair done.

Did that stop the guy at the fabric store from making sure to comment that a pretty young girl could take all the time she wants to try her coupons out? And then tell me that he’s 70 and can get away with being a creepy old man? Yeah, he’s harmless and I wasn’t in fear for my life, but it is uncomfortable. I just was there to buy some damn fabric. That’s it.

And RIO saying if you don't like it, move to Wyoming, meanwhile completely ignorning the fact that there are fabric stores in Wyoming, too.

Or that men have to deal with being mugged or carjacked, so they get it, it's similar, but women have to deal with getting mugged and carjacked PLUS the daily harassment we encounter, so no, it's not the same thing.

[This message edited by ibonnie at 11:30 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

I think the more appropriate poll question would be did you dress to impress your husband before he became your husband. Maybe, how did you dress before when you were single? When you were on the dating scene?

I didn't dress up when dating. I've been a tomgirl all my life and have always looked for men who were ok with a woman I. Jeans and t shirt.

Hate makeup. Hate heels. Hate dresses to be honest. If I wore makeup I was called a slut looking to get laid. If I dressed down I was called slob and moood at. I learned early I couldn't keep everyone happy so I said fuck ya all and did MY thing. And for a very long time I was single. Then I met some men within my hobby that weren't jerks basing their like for me on looks. I think they found it refreshing to see a woman into handling large snakes and lizards attractive. Lol

If the wayward woman dresses to attract the Ap it sure as Hell didn't apply to MY WH and his ow's.

They all wore uniforms at work. No way to make themselves sexy in that outfit. In that case it was that they put out the vibes some other way that they wanted to blow him or go screw on the bosses desk or in the cooler...

Clothes didn't matter.

I just find it hard to believe that wayward women didn't do the same.

Ok, well. Dunno what to tell you. Unless I’m actually at a function where certain outfits are called for, my style of “everyday dress” has been the same for almost 20 years, I’d say. Yes, I’ve worn dresses on dinner dates, for example. But everyday style hasn’t changed much, before, during, or after my A. Doubt it ever will.

yep! But SOME of the men here are claiming that hey, you look like that don't be surprised, which puts the onus on us.

The onus IS on you to protect yourself. I get that you shouldn't have to, I don't think a single person here has disagreed on that point. But you DO have to and you should operate as the world is, not as you want it to be. Will it stop all harassment? Of course not. Will it stop some? Of course it will. Should men be shamed and/or prosecuted for it? Yes, they should.

You know, all this reminds me of learning to drive with my father. We'd go out, and someone would do something stupid in front of us while I was driving and I'd have to react quickly to avoid an accident. And I'd righteously proclaim to my father, "Well, if we had a accident, it wouldn't have been my fault!!". And he'd look at me knowingly and say "RIO, no, it wouldn't be your fault, but you'll be just as dead as if it was your fault. Do you want to get home in one piece tonight, or do you want to prove the point that you were in the right and someone else caused an accident? Because if you're dead, even if you did have the right of way, you're still dead". And man, did that burn my ass. Why couldn't other people drive better?! Why did I have to be the one to notice someone not stopping at a light, or someone drifting into my lane.

Because, young RIO, driving defensively and acting as if everyone on the road is out to kill you is FAR more likely to be a winning strategy for avoiding an accident and an early trip to the morgue than assuming that everyone else on the road is going to be paying attention and doing the right thing. And he was right, I can't tell you how many "not my fault" accidents I've avoided by making sure that I drive defensively. At least a few, no doubt about that. Should I have to drive like people are out to murder me? Nope. No way to spin that, everyone should pay attention, not be drunk, drive the speed limit and mind their lane. But, the reality is, they won't. So I better be on the defense the moment the vehicle starts until I get it parked.

That's what this is to me, it's a basic level of self care to make sure you don't wind up having awful experiences in life. Do some people live in areas where drivers are worse? Yes, they do. Are some drivers worse? Yes, they are. Are some "accidents" unavoidable, no matter how defensive you are? Yes, they are. But can you avoid a lot of twisted metal and burned rubber if you're careful and don't assume "Oh, that person will "act right", no need to worry".. Yes, you can, at least IMHO anyway.

I found WH shaving his face to be a trigger.

If he shaves his nether regions it's a sure bet he's screwing around.

But his face. Of course not. He likes being trimmed up nicely. For himself. And that sawdust in the beard is itchy. But he had also kept himself nicely trimmed through all his affairs yet didn't shave after he got caught (until the next ow came into play). And back then he didn't have to deal with sawdust. Now he does.

So do i assume that every time he shaves/trims he's cheating or is it because that's how he likes it, makes him feel better etc?

A woman dresses nicely in a way that makes HER feel good about herself doesn't mean she wants to put out for any guy that drops his jaw or drools or catcalls. She simply feels good about herself.

Can I ask YET AGAIN, why do so many (of the same) men not accept our answers? Why? Why do you argue with us and push your own beliefs rather than hearing us? Why do you mansplain our OWN reasons and answers? Why would you be right on this and judge us to be wrong?

For the simple fact that a LOT of women DO dress for the attention. There are whole industries around how to dress for attention (see: Cosmo, etc.; Instagram models).

At the same time you dismiss them as "a few," you lump all guys into the same boat of sexual predators, or lambaste us for mansplaining, just because you disagree with OUR point of view.

Do you really think ALL men cat-call and grope, or just a few?

[This message edited by WornDown at 11:51 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

RideItOut, if you don't mind me asking what exactly would you classify as 'safe' clothing for women?

No, I don't think MOST women are wearing clothes to impress men, but I was wondering if the ones that did (because of course some women do, you can't say all women across the board) are ones leaning more towards a wayward mindset? They're dressing "slutty" on purpose because they have low self-esteem and they're seeking external validation from men to feel better about themselves?

To this, I say absolutely they are looking for external validation.

How many people put up "slutty" pictures on Facebook, Instagram looking for attention? Hell, there are people who make a living doing just that.

Now if to say they are wayward, that might be a bit of a stretch, but yes, the mindset is there - looking for validation from outside vs within.

Men are sick and tired of being looked at, talked at, yelled at, accused at and assumed at like a sexual predator if they so much as try to talk to a woman and DON'T happen to look like Hugh Jackman.

I find this to be an exaggeration. It's not that a man tries to talk to a woman - it's what he says, how he says it, and when he says it

silverhopes

I don't doubt for minute that most, if not all, women have had experiences with men who look at, talk at, yell at, drool at and paw at them like they are sexual objects. The Gift of Fear should be required reading for all women, and probably men too.

But if you think it's an exaggeration to say that there are men who are looked at, talked at, yelled at, accused at and assumed at like they are a sexual predator every time they try to talk to a woman they're attracted to, no matter what they say, how they say it, and when they say it, then it is you who need to try for a moment to inhabit these men.

Try going to a bar and watching men trying to talk to women. You'll see men who share NONE of Hugh Jackman's features try to start a conversation with a woman. They are met with one-word answers, looks of disgust, looks of "as if I would ever", looks of "get the hell away from me". Then, you'll see another man, who DOES happen to share some of Hugh Jackman's features start a conversation with this SAME woman, saying the SAME things, the SAME way, and they are met with looks and conversation of pure joy and happiness.

You'll maybe say "then those men are talking to the wrong women". That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that these men are being looked at like a sexual predator every single time they try to talk to a woman they're attracted to. It happens 100% of the time for them, no matter what they say.

There's a difference between a guy striking up a conversation with me because he finds me attractive and a guy openly perving on me. If a guy is not someone I'm interested in and he's striking up a convo that doesn't involve anything innappropriate to discuss with someone you don't even know, then of course I'm nice and treat that man like the human being he is. I don't have to want to sleep with or date him to treat him with respect and appreciate the compliment of someone being interested in me. Some women are assholes about that, absolutely. That isn't about how they're dressed. That's about them being assholes.

The onus IS on you to protect yourself.

I will squeeze my revolver into my daisy dukes. That will be my new advice to all women.

I, too, would like a definition of a safe outfit. It cannot include jeans, sweatpants, sweatshirts, oversized tops, turtlenecks, fuzzy boots, or full length down coats, because I have been harassed in all of the above.

I would also like a definition of a safe place where I can reasonably expect I belong, which cannot include grocery stores, Target, brunch at an upscale restaurant, walking along a road in Amish country, the community pool with my kids, the bleachers at my kid's ball game, my office, and my own front yard, because I and/or good friends of mine have been harassed in all of those locations, too.

I was not negating the violence that males experience. I have 4 boys, so I know what happens to them. It seems, however, that some men are trying to negate the female experience of the constant threat of violence from simply being female.

And, yes, I think everyone should do everything they can to protect themselves. I also think we need to continue to have conversations with males about how to treat females respectfully. They are getting it. I see less "boys will be boys" attitudes from my 28 year old son and his friends. I see more men realizing that they need to stop ignoring or condoning bad male behavior toward females. The change is happening.