SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Why? It would have been percieved as weakness. And weakness is culled by violence. Or was 20 years ago when I was in high school.

But we're getting way off topic, and I think I've detracted enough from a conversation that seems important for a lot of folks.

Too anyone dealing with harrassment and assault and the fear or expectation thereof, I hear you. Can't do much of nothing about it but I hear ya. If it helps.

Can't change the world or biology or society or whatnot but I can listen. Well... read I guess.

Ya. Pretty sure the number of guys being drilled about what they were wearing when they got their ass kicked is few if not none.

Hey guys. Just for reference and perspective.

I was molested by a family member. I was nine when he died I don't recall how old I was when I told but...When I finally told someone what he was doing to me/asking me to do to him...Ya know what the response was???

Well first I was told he's sick so that it wasn't his fault. Then I was told that I must have done something to make him think it was ok to stick his stuff down my throat.

They put the blame on a fucking child.

This is the reality of life as a female. I was blamed for being date raped. Oh I must have lead him on, dressed a certain way...My "No Stop" must have meant yes yes yes.

Nothing we do or don't do deserves this treatment and just because it's rampant doesn't mean it can't be changed.

They put the blame on a fucking child.

I'd advocate publicly shaming them for revenge. Followed by pranks. Then more shaming. I call it my shame sandwich vengeance plan.

Jackson, WY.

Perhaps I'll have to vacation there someday. I'd be very curious to see if a place like that actually exists, and if I could afford to live somewhere like there. And if I'd be accepted.

Exiting now. Feeling sad that this is reality. Easier to bury feelings, but not always possible.

Eta:

Too anyone dealing with harrassment and assault and the fear or expectation thereof, I hear you. Can't do much of nothing about it but I hear ya. If it helps.

It does. So much more than I can say. Thank you, NTV.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:33 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

I've been assaulted (groped) by strangers twice - once was at a bar where I was waitressing. I guess the "wrong place" argument could be used there as there's plenty of alcohol and rowdy behavior at bars, but I needed to pay my rent . . .

The other was outside my high school gym while I was walking to a dance after a football game on a Friday night. Not sure what I was wearing, but I was 14 and pretty self-conscious so probably jeans and a tee shirt. My high school was and is the top-rated public high school in the state so I would think a reasonable expectation of safety is logical.

As far as the actual question:

1. The actual question: Women, When You Get Dressed, Is Your Goal to Impress Men?

No. My goal is to look appropriate to the situation, be comfortable, and feel reasonably attractive.

Except when I'm with my boyfriend. In those cases yes, I always dress to impress him and get his attention.

Going back to page one:

while many women have posted that, no, they do not dress with the goal in mind to attract male attention, it seems like more men have taken the position that of course women dress with the goal to attract male attention

The question was asked, and women in this thread said no, they dress mostly for themselves to feel best in any given situation (as defined by themselves).

Can I ask YET AGAIN, why do so many (of the same) men not accept our answers? Why? Why do you argue with us and push your own beliefs rather than hearing us? Why do you mansplain our OWN reasons and answers? Why would you be right on this and judge us to be wrong?

I never encounter this kind of disrespect irl. If someone asks a question, they accept my answer. Thread after thread disrespecting women as they give their answers about their own feelings and beliefs.

Do the men arguing our dressing habits feel we are not very bright? Just dumb bimbos who do not know the amazingly insightful things that the men know? I have not encountered this in the real world. My male friends respect my answers in our discussions.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:23 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted. That's not COULD be. That's WILL be. That's just sexual assaults. That does not include harassment or other types of assaults.

Here's a male vs. female perspective. My 79 year old dad goes for walks after 9 PM. The thing about his dress that he worries about is if he'll be warm enough. He's a 79 year old, feeble man. He's not worried about being attacked, although he's an easy target.

I would not go out for a walk at that time regardless of what I was wearing. If I had to walk at that time I would take my pitbull or my gun or my H. I live in a middle class neighborhood in an upscale part of the USA. Lots of people here are very well off. 16 year olds expect to get new cars for their birthdays. I still am not safe after dark.

There is male privilege that so many males don't want to acknowledge. I agree with whomever said that maybe some are being obtuse so they don't have to acknowledge that.

I don't get where you see all that oin? Most of the debate I've seen is related to the likelihood of success in training young men's behavior or whether or not men experience recurring physical intimidation/threats/assaults with a side helping of blameshifting.

The few examples of full disagreement I've seen have come from WOMEN pointing out that their wh's ap dressed with purpose to seduce.

No, but they said "WTF were you thinking going to that neighborhood".

And this has exactly what to do with the topic of this thread, ie clothing??

Here’s the thing - yesterday I was wearing a simple summer dress and a cardigan with my makeup done and my hair done. Nothing fancy. Nothing was hanging out, my dress wasn’t short, there was nothing inappropriate about my outfit. I looked nice and put together. Did that stop the guy at the fabric store from making sure to comment that a pretty young girl could take all the time she wants to try her coupons out? And then tell me that he’s 70 and can get away with being a creepy old man? Yeah, he’s harmless and I wasn’t in fear for my life, but it is uncomfortable. I just was there to buy some damn fabric. That’s it.

Maybe you take that as a compliment and think I should be flattered, but it’s not. It’s uncomfortable and awkward. It would be just as uncomfortable if it was Jason Momoa because all I was looking for is to pay for my stupid fabric. I was not at a bar, not walking in a dark alley, in a gym, or any of the other places you’ve mentioned. This is the kind of dumb shit we deal with on a regular basis. This is a very minor but real life example of what I believe posters are trying to explain to you. I would never go up to a hot guy and comment on how he is. I would never grope a stranger or think about doing it. Have respect for people. I know that old man probably had good intentions and thought he was complimenting me. I still don’t need it or want it. We don’t need your unsolicited thoughts and opinions on our looks.

My daughter works with a kid who thinks he should tell her when she’s not wearing enough make up. Again, she does her makeup when she wants to - for her. Not a random male coworker who thinks he should make comments on how she looks better with make up.

I’m sorry for this rambling, nonsensical rant. I’m just kind of in disbelief how some people can be so obtuse over this. Are we all just lying about our experiences? Making things up? It’s crazy talk.

NTV, not you. But just as a quick example, the Cosmo cover and daisy dukes chick and blah blah blah.

The message is, "See?! You are obviously wanting men to look!"

Women cannot control a few chicks with their shorts up their butt, and even if we could, we wouldn't. It's their deal and I hope they feel comfortable. But their shorts won't get them raped or molested because that happens when we wear long, baggy pants, too. A rapist wants to rape and doesn't care one bit about the outfit he is destroying, just the hate he has for you and his need of you; it's pure hate. Our clothes feel threatening to some men in society, but that is something for them to work on in IC. We will wear what we want. Including daisy dukes.

Women have given up looking for a rhyme or reason for harassment, molestation, lewd jokes, rape, intimidation, and abuse. It comes at us without warning. That's why presuming we make choices to make men feel anything is ridiculous. They always feel something it seems.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:43 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

1) Woman after woman has stated in this thread that she doesn't dress to attract attention from men. I think we have to believe them.

If we don't, this whole website has a whole lot more problems than we think. All we have is belief in what we say, and it's untenable to say we believe these woman in those threads, but not in this one.

2) A few people have mentioned that (straight?) men like the way women look, whatever they wear.

Some men seem to forget that.

I remember a lot of the clothes my W wore early in our relationship, from a cocktail dress left me speechless (after knowing her for 9 months) to almost threadbare mom jeans. None of the clothes made any difference to how I felt and thought, except momentarily, but ...

When she bought her first minidresses (1967), I thought 'nice legs.' I wasn't any more attracted to her than in other clothes, but I did think she was more open to sex.

I viewed other women who wore miniskirts/dresses as more open to sex than other women. I didn't think 'more open' meant anything like 'I'll have sex with anyone,' but definitely more open.

3) When W2b bought her first minidresses, it was with the hope that people would think, 'cute dress.' She did not think men would go ape, and she certainly didn't want to attract attention from strangers.

Women seem to talk a lot about being/wanting 'cute.' I like cute on kids; kids define 'cute.' I like adult on adults. But I don't know what 'cute' means to the people who aspire to to cuteness.

4) I know we have a societal problem WRT exploiting sex to sell things, and I know that flows over to other aspects of life.

I don't know the solution ... maybe it's to mandate some sex education that teaches kids that they'll be attracted to whoever attracts them, and the attraction is theirs to own. It's not that people use their sexual power to attract others, although that happens sometime; rather, most of us simply feel some attraction to others based on looks.

That's not going to happen.

Or maybe we need to get over our fear of sexuality. That's not likely to happen, either.

******

Bottom line, I've heard that women don't dress for men so many times from so many women that I believe it's true for the vast majority of women, most of the time. And when they do dress to attract sexual attention, it's usually attention from one person that they seek.

There is male privilege that so many males don't want to acknowledge

Who hasn't acknowledged what?

I answered you in disagreement with the assertion that men don't risk physical violence. I could have quote the gender ratio for homicides or the one for violent crimes and show that men are more likely to be murdered by around 3 times, injured by...well I didn't. Instead I opened up about a childhood I didn't have to share to show you that I do understand.

Your response is to say I don't acknowledge that you percieve me to have a privilege?

I don't think that anyone is saying that men can't get harassed or assaulted. It's just that they aren't blamed for other people's mistreatment of them because of what they are wearing.

I think that talking about any of these men's experiences without any of a clothing aspect is going way off the original topic, which didn't have to do with men being harassed, threatened, assaulted, but rather with WOMEN'S CLOTHES and whether they are chosen in an effort to impress men. It did not ask about the men's perspective on how a woman dresses, so why is anybody jacking this thread to talk about that?

These threads have not taught me anything but they've reminded me of something: I have no control over what others think. So, I just don't worry about it. That's what I have taught my kids as well.

If you think my shorts are too short, oh well.

If you think my jeans are tight, oh well.

If you think I want to have sex with you, oh well.

If you think we may someday have sex, oh well.

If you think my dress is sexy, oh well.

If you think my dress is ugly, oh well.

If you think my jeans are unflattering, oh well.

If you think I need to lose 10 lbs, oh well.

If you think I should get botox, oh well.

"Why would anyone ever give any of this any thought?" said every IC ever.

Exactly.

if I hadn't decided to pretend I belonged in an area where I clearly did not, I wouldn't have had that particular assault happen.

It. Happens. EVERYWHERE. You don't believe this because you haven't seen it yourself, but it does. But even if it did happen only in cities, that's your answer? Cities should only be populated by men, and women should either leave or accept that they're taking chances with their safety? Tell me, what do you think would happen to the suburban "safe havens" if all the women took your advice, and there wasn't a woman to be found anywhere in NYC?

"Pretend I belonged in an area where I clearly did not." It's happened on my 1.5 acre front lawn.

It's just that they aren't blamed for other people's mistreatment of them because of what they are wearing.

Yes, we are. Remember one of the Die Hard movies (I think) where Bruce had to wear a shirt that said "I hate black people" (not put that way) into the ghetto? Well, imagine I did that today. What do you think the cops/paramedics would say to me as they picked what teeth I had left out of my mouth? "Hey genius, what the f**k made you think that was a good idea". And, we can make it a little less "stupid" than that, if decided to go for a stroll in a 5,000 dollar suit with a Rolex on through the ghetto, those same paramedics, upon responding the 2nd call for "idiot white guy beat to a pulp in the ghetto" would nearly certainly say "My god, you are a really a dumb one aren't you". The reality is, much like women, my clothing choices NEED to be based on the environment that I'm going to encounter and the people who are going to be there or else, I'm gonna have trouble. Do women need to be more careful than men? Yes, they probably do. But claiming that I don't feel the same pressure isn't true, I do; it's just not as restrictive as it is for women. But it's still there, and let me tell you, the cops would be (and WERE, no supposition necessary) a lot less PC when they came to my rescue after one particularly viscous beating. "Jeezus, what the hell were you thinking going into that store at midnight?!" I think might be a direct quote. But let's say, they didn't exactly put all the blame on the attackers (nor did they spend a lot of time looking for them, even though it was on video), a lot was heaped on me for committing a non-existent but very much "real" crime, "white in the wrong neighborhood".

And when they do dress to attract sexual attention, it's usually attention from one person that they seek.

Trying to get back to the topic at hand, I'm sure this is true, but how on earth are you supposed to know if that "one person" is me, you, or someone else? It's an impossible standard, "read her mind and see if she wants to look sexy for you or not before you approach her". That's never going to happen.

Cities should only be populated by men, and women should either leave or accept that they're taking chances with their safety?

Accept it or not, you are taking chances with your safety, as am I when I stroll into certain neighborhoods. Protect yourself, don't expect the world to change to protect you because.. It won't.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 11:05 AM, April 4th (Thursday)]

NTV, I wasn't talking about you. But, I did look up more stats. 1 in 6 males will be sexually assaulted. It was hard to find gender stats on nonsexual violent crime. I did finally find some. The stats show that it fluctuates. Sometimes more males are victims, sometimes more females. In 2017, more females were victims of violent crimes. That's only nonsexual violent crimes. Adding sexual violent crimes would probably change those stats.

WRT the extreme Daisy dukes, that woman wearing those does not entitle men to harass her even if she is trying to get attention. Prostitutes dress to attract sexual attention. Men are still not entitled to harass them. Children do not look provocative, and yet they are sexually assaulted.

"Your response is to say I don't acknowledge that you percieve me to have a privilege?"

I missed this. Acknowledging my perception is not acknowledging the situation. The fact is that males do have a certain amount of privilege in USA society, especially if they are heterosexual, caucasian, and Christian.

So, the problem becomes one of hypocrisy.

I want attention, but only when, how, and from who I decide. And if you are a guy who doesn't fit the parameter? You're "the problem."

I think it has been addressed already, but I'll answer since you quoted me. I am no more ready to have sex with a hot guy than an unattractive guy if they're creeping on me. You don't get what it's like to be at risk of being raped. Whether the rapey creepy guy is attractive or not does not enter into it. The problem with being harrassed is the degradation that pours out of it. It's the stuff that makes you fear for your own safety. There's a guy who mows the lawns of most houses in my neighborhood. I mow my own lawn though he charges a fair price. The reason I mow my own lawn is that after he mowed it a couple of times he felt that he was totally okay with approaching me in my yard and telling me that I have a nice figure and looking at me in a way that made me feel the slime coming off of him. Why this man felt the need to discuss my body during a business conversation is part of the problem within our culture. I do not care whether or not he found me attractive. I care that he felt that my tits (perfectly covered) were a relevant part of the conversation about him mowing my yard the following weekend. Which he doesn't get to do anymore.