SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

emergent8 I just peed myself. That translation!!Best ever!

Ha! Thanks. I'm still waiting to be called a misandrist, but maybe that'll happen after we're done discussing how women can lose baby-weight.

Ha! Thanks. I'm still waiting to be called a misandrist, but maybe that'll happen after we're done discussing how women can lose baby-weight.

Ha! Exactly, first thing first! Priorities woman!

And, we’ve just completed the round and round, part 6079.

Men, don’t have opinions, certainly don’t post your opnions, do not talk about your wives, cheaters though they may be, at all.

I just feel like, why, do we constantly take bh’s to the woodshed? Why does their opinions not count? Why are they labeled when the only label they actually have is “betrayed.”

I may not like what they say, but goddamit, I’m listening when they say it.

Greeneyesbluezy- I don’t follow. Who took who to the woodshed?

emergent8 I just peed myself. That translation!!Best ever!

Whilst I didn't pee myself, I must agree with seekers assessment. Thank you for the 'splainin, it was spot on.

I just feel like, why, do we constantly take bh’s to the woodshed? Why does their opinions not count? Why are they labeled when the only label they actually have is “betrayed.”

I'll start by saying, not every, and perhaps not even "most" posters do this. But there's a "drag that misogynist asshole BH to the woodshed" contingent that's loud and posts often, just like I'm loud and post often on the "misogynist asshole BH" side of the aisle.

Why? Well, I can answer for myself; the anonymity of this site, plus the discussion topic, often leads me to say things that I'd NEVER say in polite company. I'd think it, but I'd never actually say it. Here I'll say it if I think it can be helpful, productive, or educational for people; this is one of the few places where I can give an unvarnished view into my mental thought processes. And I think that's valuable for some people because they probably haven't heard it before. Well, 1/2 the audience hasn't, men, by and large, I expect, even if they disagree with me, have been in situations where other men are saying the things I'll tell women here. And that's really it, it's a view for women into the "men's locker room" to find out what's really going on there. And I think that some women do the same, showing us (men) what's in the "woman's locker room". The problem is, what's going on in both locker rooms isn't what "should be" going on. The truth of the way at least some men talk to one another is shocking, hurtful and offensive to women. Just like the truth of what women think is often the same to me. Every time I see a thread where women are talking about "He's never getting sex/BJ/etc" again, it's like a stab in the gut; OMG, they really do think of those things as bargaining chips! Or the thread from yesterday, where a woman insulted a man for his height and baldness, OMG, that is really what they are thinking. Again, painful as hell, but also incredibly useful if you want to know what's really going on in your H/W's mind, NOT what they are supposed to say, but what they are really thinking.

I'll tell you guys a somewhat funny, somewhat awful story. A buddy of mine and his wife had a kid a few years back. In mixed company, it was all lovey/dovey/so happy/etc. All the "right" things to say. We went down to the basement (the guys) and had a few drinks, and someone asked him if he was "back in the saddle" yet. And his demeanor changed completely, you could see the pain and hurt in his eyes, which then turned into a joke.. "No, wife still isn't into it.. I haven't been this long without sex since I was in high school; I'm about ready to f**k a cantaloupe". Now, after choking on my beer; I thought to myself, how does this compare/contrast with what was said upstairs? I have no doubt that what he said was real (hey, cantaloupes need love too!), but how does this jive with the "oh so happy, blessed, couldn't be more satisfied together" stuff that was being said an hour ago?

And that's kind of the point of the way I post. The "right thing" to say is often uninteresting and not helpful. You don't need me to tell you, ask anyone, we all know what the "right answer" is. In fact, you don't even need to ask, all you need to do is think "what would I say in polite company to that question"; that's the answer. But the right answer is often not the "real answer" or the "whole answer". And I think that the "real answer" is far more useful, it's what I wanted from my WW (stop with the TT), and it's what I want from everyone I deal with, don't blow smoke up my ass, don't tell me what I want to hear, tell me the TRUTH. And the truth is often massively uncomfortable and painful. I strive to that standard, right or wrong, delivered with the "least pain" possible but without changing the message. If we go back to the discussion of being overweight, for example, we can have the polite discussion which involves "thyroid" and "big boned" and "big is healthy" and lots of other platitudes, or we can have the real discussion which is "overeating", "unhealthy", "less attractive" and "self control". I've been heavy, and I've been rail thin. Yes, it was far more mentally comfortable when I was heavy to think "women don't care about a few extra pounds" and "I still look good" and "It must be from my Mom's side, they are all heavy" and lots of other external factors. The truth, however, was that it was entirely in my control, I worked out more and ate less. Women did find me more attractive at low BF than they did at higher BF. I wasn't genetically incapable, I was overeating and under exercising. Not the "right" message, not the PC answer, but it was the "real answer", at least for me personally. And I deliver that message to people I train with too; some guys would say "I want to look like that" (pointing at a really big guy across the room) and I'll tell them, point blank, "You will never look like that without drugs". Because that's the truth, I could sugar coat it and encourage them, but they will fail and I will be a hypocrite; you want to look like a professional bodybuilder, you need to do the things that professional bodybuilders do (a lot of which are illegal and/or very unhealthy).

Anyway, a little off topic, so, to close, I'll just say; the truth is a powerful thing. It's also an ugly thing. Its why I'm so enamored with statistics and analysis of numbers, because the "truth" of how people actually feel are captured in those numbers. There's a great book I read a few years ago on Big Data (an IT buzzword of the day) and how it can answer questions like "are we racist", "do we have a bias towards women/men", "what do we really enjoy sexually" and lots of other questions where asking directly will almost certainly get a lie/PC version. The "real version" is FAR more interesting and illustrative though, if anyone's interested, I'll look it up and get the title, but it was a fascinating book, at least to me.

Every time I see a thread where women are talking about "He's never getting sex/BJ/etc" again, it's like a stab in the gut; OMG, they really do think of those things as bargaining chips!

The problem is, Rideitout - that you see them saying it's bargaining chips. It's astonishing to me that you can't see there is so much more to why some of the women here can't go there any more with their husbands.

First, as a woman, sex is a different thing to us. We are literally letting you into our body. We are doing things we were taught stringently growing up that "nice girls don't do", it takes a level of trust and collectively as women in relationship we need to feel valued.

If our husband goes out and fucks another woman, while I do not know that pain, it's not a leap for me to understand how that doesn't make us feel trust, loved or valued. And, some of these women are married to the serial cheaters that you really like to rip up as predators. You just fail to see the way they are predators in their own relationship.

Do you even realize that yesterday you honestly made the argument that it was worse and more real to be used like a wallet with legs rather than a bj provider with legs to a man who can't seem to stop wanting to fuck anything he can? That woman is severely being abused, undervalued and is in every bit and often times more of a toxic relationship than the man with the wallet analogy.

I say all the time when I am talking on the men's strings that some of the women forget they are talking to a BH instead of a WH. I think you think you are just talking to wives here. Different lenses.

I agree with you on many things - one of them is that a man does need sex in a relationship to feel fulfilled, to feel his wife loves him. I believe that, I really do. But, I also believe that cheating changes the game for women, just like it does men. I will point out that the mens threads that you participate in and often lead - you all say once you have been cheated on the game changes - you want to negotiate in a better and broader and more frequent sex life. That is the SAME kind of "bargaining chip" thinking that you are condemning in this post. You just have to think of it in reverse - the infidelity game changer is this woman is married to a man who is using sex for him and his needs only and she no longer finds THAT acceptable.

That's why I made the post yesterday - it's different sides of the fence, and we have to look at people here with different lenses and understand the context is different.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:53 AM, May 9th (Thursday)]

the thread from yesterday, where a woman insulted a man for his height and baldness, OMG, that is really what they are thinking.

For the record, I only insulted his height. And you have taken it slightly out of context. I don’t know if you read the follow up clarification post. I did it PURELY to cut him to the core so he would recognize that he was nothing special and certainly not in a position to make any demands that his wife become “hot again.” In fact, I hope every man in the room took good inventory of their own physical attributes before EVER judging others again. He was suggesting that she make an effort to lose weight so he could feel better about it. Speaks volumes for the type of man he is.

Now, I didn’t KNOW the height comment would bother him, it was a good guess given his massive ego. And judging by reactions here, I’m thinking that it probably worked. I remember thinking that if she doesn’t lose the weight fast enough, would he cheat? Is that what “letting herself go” means to husbands? It bothered me.

I stood up for his wife. And newsflash to him: wait until menopause hits your wife like a runaway train! He won’t like it, either.

Please don’t paint me in the category that I go around doling out insults to men. I do not. My husband is not tall. There are members here who can back me up in that, they have seen pics.

[This message edited by Hg65 at 10:13 AM, May 9th (Thursday)]

We went down to the basement (the guys) and had a few drinks, and someone asked him if he was "back in the saddle" yet. And his demeanor changed completely, you could see the pain and hurt in his eyes, which then turned into a joke..

This doesn't sound like a very compassionate way of interacting with a friend. Maybe you're drawing the wrong conclusions? Maybe it's not so much about the sex as it is the peer-pressure to conform to the group-think regarding it. If machismo is measured by "scoring", there's this poor guy, being exposed in front of his peer group as not filling the bill. His problem is treated as a joke, he responds in kind. Further, he's being asked to betray his wife's privacy, breaking a boundary if you measure the interaction by "walls and windows", an additional discomfort. Possibly the "pain and hurt" was less about the actual sex and more about being embarrassed in front of a peer group?

Maybe, maybe not. But if this problem is the source of emotional pain you say it is, why treat it so casually?

emergent8

I blame you for making me spit my coffee

I just feel like, why, do we constantly take bh’s to the woodshed? Why does their opinions not count? Why are they labeled when the only label they actually have is “betrayed.”

I can agree to a certain extent. However, when someone says something that is not helpful to their healing or the healing of others, spelling it out is really in the best interest.

Women should value their husband, husbands should value their wives. If the value is based on what she weighs, whether she cooks and gives blowjobs on demand, I just don't think that is helpful. I wouldn't support a woman who came on and said that she stays with her husband so she can get his paycheck (though I never have seen a woman here say that)

But, your sentiments are right. Empathy is important and at times scarce.

Hear ye, hear ye

I heard .... and enjoyed a lot, thanks Emergent

This doesn't sound like a very compassionate way of interacting with a friend. Maybe you're drawing the wrong conclusions? Maybe it's not so much about the sex as it is the peer-pressure to conform to the group-think regarding it. If machismo is measured by "scoring", there's this poor guy, being exposed in front of his peer group as not filling the bill. His problem is treated as a joke, he responds in kind. Further, he's being asked to betray his wife's privacy, breaking a boundary if you measure the interaction by "walls and windows", an additional discomfort. Possibly the "pain and hurt" was less about the actual sex and more about being embarrassed in front of a peer group?

I couldn’t disagree with this idea more. This sounds more like an idea created to fit the “toxic masculinity” narrative. And frankly sounds more like womansplaining than anything.

In all honesty, the idea you are trying to promote couldn’t be any more toxic. First of, you show no actual concern for the husband in the situation (beyond your narrative) and then place the importance on his wife’s privacy, as if that trumps all.

Basically, what you’ve created is an environment where the husband can’t win. Vent about his situation, with those he feels comfortable enough to do so, at the cost of betraying his wife’s privacy. But if he doesn’t to vent his feelings regarding the situation then he is perpetuating the toxic masculinity by not opening up. Pick one!

Put your broken ideology aside. Understand men and women communicate differently. Just because it doesn’t present itself the way you’d like to see it, doesn’t make it wrong.

I can’t begin to tell you how infuriating it is to constantly here how men should open up more, then when they do, are told they’re doing it wrong.

“I’ll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife”

Loukas, you can't budge the agenda driven entrenched. And after every male feminizes in the way suggested, we'll hear "why are there no more real men like our Daddy's..."

Sorry to go back to points raised a few pages ago.

I'm convinced it never would have happened if I'd said more "pretty" comments, because she wouldn't have been so desperate to hear them from other people.

You're forgetting that 'words of affirmation' aren't really taken in by a broken person, especially when they come from a loved one.

It's too easy for a WS2b to say to him/herself, 'S/he doesn't mean it - s/he has to say something positive.'

...Also, it's comforting to think "Just work harder, it won't happen again" because I control that. The "you can['t] fix her" stuff makes me feel very hopeless, even if it's true, because it feels like a random walk. Put in 100 or 0, makes no difference, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. I hate that.

You're saying you hate not being in control. You're saying you don't want to believe you can't fix her even if it's true. How would you respond if you read that from someone else?

Look, I know it may be self-serving for a BS to think the A is all on the WS. If I as BS couldn't have done anything to stop the A, that absolves me of any responsibility for it.

But if I could have done something, then I'm partly to blame for my plight, and that supports me in taking a Victim position in a Drama Triangle. Further, if I could have done something to prevent the A, then I'm pretty powerful; that could provide comfort when I've just been victimized.

So...there are definite, though only apparent, benefits from thinking I can control others.

But, OTOH ... we are responsible for ourselves. We make our own decisions. We can influence others. We can be influenced by others. But we make our own decisions.

The vast majority of BSes are in the same Ms as their WSes, and yet those BSes don;t cheat. It follows, then, that WSes made their decisions to cheat for their own reasons.

*****

some men can be ‘happy’ with plain women because they look after them. - That’s not constructive it misogynistic

So misogynistic is just a synonym for a male POV now? If not, is it that a man can't actually be happy with a plain looking woman or the idea that plain looking women exist that's the misogynistic part. I don't understand.

A person can be happy with a 'plain' partner for many reasons, not just because 'she looks after him.'

And the person who looks plain to an outsider may look much better than 'plain' to his lover.

The original statement takes a superficial and transactional view of relationships - the proposition that 'plain' women have value only insofar as they serve their men. I think that qualifies as 'misogynistic.'

BTW, the women's college associated with my college used to publish a book with photos of the girls in each freshman class. One of my roommates showed me a photo of one girl who was supposed to epitomize 'plain.' I knew her. She wasn't what many people would call 'pretty,' but she was the sexiest woman I've ever met. Remember, most of us are average.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:00 AM, May 9th (Thursday)]

RIO - you are also perpetuating the myth that a good sex life with prevent a man from cheating. My WH could never complain about his damn sex life - NEVER. I was up for anything - except for a three some, but had he asked, I probably could have been convinced. I have been around enough men that I thought that was all I had to do. It’s bullshit. I told him all the time how great he was. He was the problem. Anyone who knows him and what he did thinks he’s an idiot.

It is so frustrating to hear. I have two kids way too close in age, because I was not going to make him go without sex for any length in time - oops. That backfired. I still got cheated on because he was a selfish, conflict avoidant, low self esteemed asshole. His balls were empty and his stomach was full. I am a damn good cook.

This is what is so frustrating to read over and over on these threads. Maybe it applies to some men - but it most certainly doesn’t apply to all.

How does "an additional discomfort" end up being the same as "place the importance on his wife’s privacy"???

I have to wonder if some of you guys actually care about resolving problems or if you're just looking for a place to complain about your perceptions of women. If it's the latter, an infidelity board is probably not the best fit.

My point was that in the story we were given, there are other possible explanations for what that guy might have been feeling, and that as described, it didn't appear he was treated as compassionately as what the problem might have deserved.

Loukas, you can't budge the agenda driven entrenched. And after every male feminizes in the way suggested, we'll hear "why are there no more real men like our Daddy's..."

I am asking this truly, not sarcastically. Why do men keep saying we want them to be feminine? I really don't understand that feedback. I am not trying to make a case, I just generally don't see that as what anyone is saying.

And, some of these women are married to the serial cheaters that you really like to rip up as predators. You just fail to see the way they are predators in their own relationship.

HO you make so many great points. I'm happy you stated this. It's interesting how it affects each one of us. I'm not sure what it will take for me to feel sexually driven like I once was in the M. Once the mask slipped so did my sex drive ouch.

Chamomile Tea, isn’t that just a bold accusation? Do you know anything about me or do you simply throw the women hater label around to anyone who disagrees with you? Because if you actually took some time to read my posts and not get defensive, you would actually see some honest male feedback that is in fact problem solving.

I pointed out exactly what was wrong with your idea and why. From a male perspective. I didn’t come at you from an ideology, rather a place of compassion towards the actual problem that many men face. If you want to overlook that, than there’s nothing I can do about that. But I assure you there are men who understood exactly what I said and it had zero to do with hating women.