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More, he just simply adds logic to where there was none used.

In some cases, I think that's undeniably true. I'd honestly say, any "affair for love", there's no logic used. Love isn't logical, and, even if it was, any logical basis at all will tell you that "married men/women are a really poor place to look for love". There are however, and entirely different set of APs out there who are using logical reasoning to either justify or come to the conclusion that "have an affair" is the right answer. Yes, I know my share of these guys, and yes, their "whys" make sense to me because they are logical. Doesn't make them right, "Why rob banks; because that's where the money is" is an entirely logical and also immoral statement. Now, if you dig a level deeper, you might start to see cracks "Why not just get a job? Too much work. Isn't robbing banks a lot of work too?". And you keep digging down and down and eventually you'll get to a logical failure. Just like my "bro cheaters", "Why have an A.. Because I want more sex". OK, logical. But, "Why don't you talk to your wife about it" to which, you might find the first logical break "Because she's just not like that". Well, dude, if you never talk to her about it, how the hell do you know?! But, most of the time, the logic holds there too. If you keep digging, of course, you find the break in logic, but it's a small break usually (Why not ask for an open relationship? Because she'll D me. Won't she D you for an A too? Yes, she will, that's why I can't get caught). Stuff like that, if you examine them closely, they start to fall apart, but, on the face, the reasons/motivations to have/continue the affair are logical.

I think it would be helpful if he didn't have some of the men he works with skewing the whole thing.

You got that right. Also would have been helpful if my W hadn't cheated with a known serial.. So.. Yeah, you got me there.

They are lying to themselves and so he buys their lies because of projection of what he thinks he would be doing or feeling in an affair. Yet, he isn't the type of person to have one himself so he's just left with this knowledge/understanding gap.

I have no idea if they are lying to themselves. Maybe. But, you don't know either, and their answers sure as heck make more sense, especially understanding now typical affair sexual dynamics. So sure, they could be lying to themselves and to me, but, I certainly wouldn't take that as a foregone conclusion, especially when their reasons for an A are far more logical than, well, any of the reasons my W coughed up. Yes, I think those are really her "reasons", but no, there's no logic in throwing away your marriage for "love" in the place you are almost certain NOT to find love (statistically speaking).

I really don't believe I'm "not the type" of person to have an A. In fact, I would consider myself high risk. Travel a lot for work, younger, totally male dominated work culture that would be accepting of an A. I don't think it's "I'm not the type" I think it's "You have strong barriers in place" that prevent me from doing it. But I have those barriers in place specifically because I know that what an A offers is very appealing to me, sex, sex with someone new, kinky sex, dangerous situations/high risk.. All those things are things that I really enjoy. Much like the person who's trying to lose weight doesn't stock their house with cookies, I do my best to make sure that I don't tempt myself unnecessarily. Not because I don't like or wouldn't enjoy cookies, I love cookies! But because I made a promise not to eat cookies, and, I care more about that promise than I do cookies. But the allure, sure, of course that's there for me. I'm jealous of my W's AP pretty much every day. While she'd say "he got the worst version of me", just examining the timeline, what they did together and the effort expended for the payoff.. Well, yeah, I'm jealous, you can feel that was the worst version of you all day long, I can tell you, what you actually gave him was, at least my, boyhood fantasy woman.

I understand why you think that. But, so far the evidence shows you aren't the type of person to have an affair.

The fact you know your weaknesses, so you have put firm boundaries in place means you are very serious about keeping your promises. Most of us who cheat think "I've got this" until we don't. I know I say I will not cheat again, but I also know that I have firm boundaries in place and will be vigilant in the future.

The fact that your wife gave what some people would have taken as instant permission to a revenge affair. You were going through your dad's health issues when she had the affair, and then you went through all affair stuff. And, you are getting better. This tells me you have more coping ability in your little finger than most WS have in their entire bodies. Maybe something that happened to you earlier in life made you learn coping, but you have it.

Also, you have a conscience. And, I mean, yeah so do I. But, the difference is yours isn't intermittent. You didn't say "fuck it, I am in a bunch of pain and this would feel good", because you want to be able to live with yourself. This is something I didn't know - how hard it would be to live with yourself after.

So, maybe you are susceptible, like any human being. But, you have the other things in place that has helped you up at least until today be the type of person who doesn't cheat.

I had an affair with a serial cheater too. And, I can tell you yeah, he wanted extra on the side. I don't deny that. But the reasons he wanted it are not as clear as you think yours would be. He is a serial cheater and you are not. Therefore, I think you forget the "special sauce" that makes them that way. You just keep repeating "Guys like sex, affairs are sex, so that makes sense". No, it's way more screwed up than that. Sex alone isn't a big enough motivator for you to actually make the leap. If it was, you have had plenty of excuses to put yourself in that situation. You aren't lacking the stuff the serial cheater AP is. I know you never believe that, and it's astounding to me because you are as motivated by sex as any man I have ever heard of.

By the way - My H is a lot like you - not in the trying to apply logic where there isn't any. But, he's very motivated by sex. Very. He is also an outside the lines person - obviously from some of our pre-marital excursions. But, he has character and honor where I did not. I believe he could be tempted to cheat, but I believe knowing who he is he just doesn't have that "secret sauce" that he would actually move forward to it. And, I think it's not his commitment to me - but to himself. He doesn't require the external validation that he might get in an affair. Those guys at work? They are all about external validation and part of that validation is from the other guys they are bragging to. Sure, they like sex, and sure they might really like the sex they are having in an affair. But, they go home and greet their wife and kiss their kids and turn on the game. Unbothered whatsoever by what they are doing because they are such great compartmentalizers. Even as they text their girlfriends while their wife is serving them dinner. There is a coldness to someone who has an affair.

They are all about external validation and part of that validation is from the other guys they are bragging to.

Now there, you might be onto something. While I may have the highest sexual motivation in the history of man (actually, from what I see in other men I know well, I'm pretty average, I'm just 100X more blunt about it here!), I may, at the same time, have almost no need for external validation. During our conversation, funny enough, I finished a project and sent it off to my boss. He responded with the "this is great, awesome work" and you know what I felt? Nothing. If it was that awesome, he'd give me a raise. There is nothing to that statement other than "you're not gonna get fired today". That type of validation has close to 0 impact on me. I don't want other men to envy me, I don't want people to look up to me, I don't even really like it when people like me (because I think they are out for something that I'm not yet aware of). I don't want you (not you, in general) to validate me with anything intangible, if the work is that good, pay up. If I'm that hot, let's have sex. The "validation" without action is as hollow a victory as possible. The action without validation, well.. If my boss said "this sucks/could be better" and then turned around as said "here's a big bonus". Well, I'd much prefer that to the empty rah-rah words. Tell me I suck and pay me enough that I can hire people to tell me I'm wonderful if that's what I need, I'm not here for the kibbles, I'm here for the dollars. And, of course, the reason I drew that using those particular words, if we're having an A, I'm not risking my marriage for the kibbles either, so you better deliver on some truly blockbuster sex. And my WW did, without question, deliver. I really do think that a lot do (deliver), especially if we restrict the conversation to WH's.

Maybe something that happened to you earlier in life made you learn coping, but you have it.

I think you're probably right here too. I had to learn to cope with difficult situations early on in life; no, nothing awful, and MUCH better than most, but I probably had about 2 helpings of childhood trauma (compared to some people having almost none and others having 100 helpings). My family was very, very reserved. Emotions were left at the door, they had no place in our household. You want to discuss facts, opinions, aspirations.. Door was always open. You want to talk about how little Timmy hurt you feelings? Well, you better go somewhere else, because that was just not an acceptable topic of conversation. Emotions "didn't matter", facts did. And I internalized that deeply; even today, talking about it, I can see some folly in taking that approach, but.. I still think it's right. I think the world would be much, much better if more people were more logical, and a dramatically worse place if more people were driven by emotion.

that "secret sauce"

I kind of think, without defining what that is, we all, or at least most of us, have that "secret sauce" in us. Sure, I could start a fight with my W, get fired, start drinking, and no doubt at all in my mind, I'd put myself into the "secret sauce" situation pretty quickly. I know I have the capability to do it, and I think that many/most of us do. The secret is making sure you don't mix up that particular brew, or, if it's mixed against your will, you reach out for help before it's too late. Sure, there are situations that would almost certainly result in me cheating, I can imagine several without much effort. Those aren't tests! Those are situations to avoid. I'm equally sure, to draw an analogy, if I were to, for example, stroll down the streets of any inner city ghetto in my suit, I'd get my ass beat down hard. The trick isn't to workout more, or to carry a gun, the trick is to NOT walk down those streets! But does that mean I can't? No, it doesn't, I know where those streets are and I avoid them because the downside is too high, no matter how much shorter the walk might be, it's not worth the beat down that almost sure to come from it. And this is why I take issue when people say "I'd never" or "I couldn't". How many people here with a "WS" under their name said the same thing? Most of them? Almost all of them? IDK, but I do know that hubris certainly played a role in my W's A, she would "never" until, of course, she did. He found the right lines, at the right time, under the right circumstances. And the rest is history. If she'd thought "Man, I could cheat if the situation presented itself in a way I found attractive", IMHO, she never would have been there in the first place.

Secret sauce could be a lot of things. The whys that are on this site every day. You hit some of it - crisis, sure that can precipitate. And, yes, I am not making an argument that you could never have an affair. Simply pointing out why to this point you haven't. It's not because you don't like sex as much as these guys you talk about. And, I suspect same for my husband. That's why I was just abbreviating it all too "secret sauce" we know what those things can be, it wouldn't surprise me if some of those guys weren't SA.

My FWH said A sex was never as good as our married sex.

Affair sex=just sex.

Married sex=sex + love.

Why exactly would a BS consider themselves more knowledgeable than a responding WS? And why insist on contradicting?

Because we have no incentive to lie.

We human beings have plenty of incentive to lie - to ourselves. We lie to ourselves all the time, to keep our defenses up and to justify our worldview.

And in lying to ourselves, we lie to others, though that's usually unintentional.

did anyone see the same title thread in the WS

section?

There was a WW after D day that said the

sex was better with the om, though she regrets the

affair.

I hate threads like this but here goes…

My ex-fiancé – the one that I caught in bed with another man – and I had incredible sex. All the time.

About six months after ending that relationship – once I realized I wasn’t terminally sad – I started hitting bars and clubs and had lots of casual, one-night type sexual adventures. I was always upfront that I wasn’t looking for a relationship. Some of the stuff I got into and did would probably amaze a porn-star…

About a year of that it started feeling empty. Great pursuit, enjoyable flirting, great bodies, technically amazing and accomplished sex but with very limited satisfaction or fulfilment.

Sort of like a perfect golf-drive in a simulator, or fishing from a stocked pond.

When I met my wife, things changed. First of all, she wasn’t easy to get. Sexually she wasn’t (and isn’t) too adventurous. If I stick to the golf-analogy, then if I had worked to a sexual handicap of 5 then she was still at 27. I guess we are both now at a comfortable 20, but the enjoyment and fulfillment and purpose our sex serves and offers, even now 30 years later is the best I have had.

I can’t compare affair sex to marriage sex because I have never had an affair. But I can compare emotionless or self-centered sex to giving, mutual fulfillment sex. I can do without the former, but need the later.

[This message edited by Bigger at 1:50 PM, October 8th (Tuesday)]

All these verbal arguments aside...

I would love to be able to measure with some instrument the duration, number of contractions, strength of contractions, amount of wetness and number of orgasms a woman reaches in an affair vs married.

There was an experiment run some time ago where they tested women watching porn who claimed not to be turned on, the measurements said otherwise.

What people claim to experience is not always accurate.

I would love to be able to measure with some instrument the duration, number of contractions, strength of contractions, amount of wetness and number of orgasms a woman reaches in an affair vs married.

Well.. As you can probably guess, my analytic mind wants to know. But, you know.. Be careful what you wish for. This study has been done on men and males of many species, it's called the Coolidge effect. And before people flip out, most of (not all, but most of) the research has been done in animals, however, there is little/no reason, given how universal it is, to assume that it doesn't happen in humans as well. And, I know, for me personally, it's a "thing", in fact, it's a "big thing" that drove me to seek novelty in my sexual experiences as a young man.

Put simply, to your question, if you introduce a "novel female", males will generally have measurably "harder" orgasms, measured in both length and emission of semen.

There is ongoing debate if this effect exists in females. It's much more important, biologically (outside of humans, for us, it's just a yoke around our necks), for males to be motivated to seek "novel" (new) sexual partners than it is for females. The arguments for it in women surround the possibility of it increasing genetic diversity (if one offspring has genetic disease, others will not), the argument for why males have it.. Well, is obvious, males that sought more novel sexual experiences were more genetically successful.

It's interesting, if you trace our genetic lineage back through time, we are all descended from a relatively small number of men. A small number of very promiscuous men. I remember reading an article (that I just looked up again, no, I didn't remember the exact number) that said that for every man who reproduced, 17 women did. The vast majority of men are lost to genetic history, those of us that remain, well.. We're descended from some "special stock", let's put it that way.

Because we have no incentive to lie.

You lied when you wrote that.

You lied when you wrote that.

I did? Care to elaborate on that? What earthly reason would I have to lie to you about my motivations for sex in the past? Or how I felt about sex? Or what other men have told me about sex?

And, I stand by the statement, even if you do see some incentive for me to lie (and make myself look awful in the process, I might add), whatever incentive you might attribute will, I suspect, be dramatically less incentive than a WS has to lie about this topic. No, I don't know what was going on in any particular WS's head during the A. But I feel it's entirely reasonable to say that if "this is the best sex ever" was rolling around in their mind, well, yeah, they have a pretty strong incentive to lie about it now.

While I can't tell you what was rolling around in any WS's head during the A, I can tell you what was rolling around in mine in "A like" situations (ONS, for example, or just really kinky sex). And that was some version of "this sex is awesome". True for every WS? Absolutely, without question, NO. True for some WS? I can't say for sure (although, some WS's have all but said that in so many words here already), but I'd bet you a lot of money, the answer is "yes". Something near impossible to disclose/admit to your partner, particularly if your partner places a high value on sex (typically, but not always, the male)? Lot of incentive to lie, an "impossible truth" coupled with absolutely no way to verify any answer given? Your godd**n right there is.

"A like" situations (ONS, for example, or just really kinky sex)

Oh, come on. Without long term commitments, it can't be an A-like situation.

And equating kinky sex with an A? That almost has to come from a presumption that sex is somehow ...IDK... naughty. It doesn't have to be naughty. It could be just something that adults do, and if consenting adults do it, it's OK.

Sisson said it faster than I could.

An affair is nothing like NSA sex. There are so many strings that it actually constructs itself within the confines of the strings. It can't grow, it can only get more toxic because the lies you tell yourself have to get more elaborate. All the lies you have to tell your spouse. You have to stuff it all in a box. When you are single you can kind of spread out and really revel in it. And, I don't think that's at all what an affair looks or feels like. Let's put it this way, RIO - I have had the fun sex in an environment like you have been in. And, I have had an affair. It's apples and oranges, completely.

I think that we will get a biased view on that the

affair sex after D day was not worth it and was

not better than with the BH.

you see the WW is trying to recover her marriage.

her BH may eventually read the WW's posts. She can

truly regret her affair, evident by attempting recovery.

however if her BH reads how good the OM

was in bed will not just crushed her BH.

it will greatly increase the chances of recovery

failing.

Also on infidelity forums we get the WW's that want

recover, do damage control. so their story will be

to down play the sex with the OM.

what we do not see here is the WW's that leave their

BH after the affair. We do not get to hear how

good their affair sex was.

Oldtruck -

I know we debate this...you and I. One thing that you can take into consideration. My husband back before we were married watched me have sex with other people, and initiated it/encouraged it/enjoyed it. I don't think I have to hide from him any of my sexual feelings at all.

Sure. But if counter that with the biased view here that sex had to better then we will probably arrive at most probable conclusion that sex—the act itself—was, well, sex. What makes the sex better the added emotional component. For me, the most valuable insight from this thread is my belief that the porn industry has really really distorted our views about sex.

what we do not see here is the WW's that leave their BH after the affair. We do not get to hear how good their affair sex was.

Or the WW's currently in their A, or those who never get caught. Those don't show up here often. But there are places for them, I won't call any out by name, but they exist on the wonderful and sick thing we call the Internet. And the reports there couldn't be more 180 opposite from those expressed by almost all the WW's here. The sex is often "best ever" over in those areas, in fact, it's probably more common than not to hear a WW gush on about her sexual awakening in the arms of the AP.

Now, yes, those people have incentive to lie too (to justify to others why they are doing what they are doing, and, of course, the social norm there is "sex is always amazing" just like here the norm is "sex is typically nothing special") and I do recognize that. But.. Someone is lying here. It seems quite impossible to me that most active WW in an A have "mind blowing sex" where most WW's after d-day have "meh" sex. That makes little/no sense, especially when you consider that A->B, group A eventually (usually, of course) becomes group B. But nowhere in that move from group A (active affair) to group B (busted, trying to R) is there, as far as I'm aware, a brain washing occuring.

For me, the most valuable insight from this thread is my belief that the porn industry has really really distorted our views about sex.

Sure, porn distorts is, church distorts is, society distorts is some more. But, curious, what in this thread leads you to that belief?

My husband back before we were married watched me have sex with other people, and initiated it/encouraged it/enjoyed it. I don't think I have to hide from him any of my sexual feelings at all.

I have little/no doubt that your H believes your account of the sex HO, and what you said above is probably exhibit A in that. He's actually seen you engage in the "forbidden" sex, been a part of it himself, and knows what you're like with other men. Also, you, IIRC, didn't go "full porn star" with the AP and/or deny your H much in bed. So, I'd say your situation, while very illustrative, is also a bit outside the norm for your typical BH who's worried about this issue (IE, me).

What makes the sex better the added emotional component.

I agree 100% with this assessment. I am actually the one who asked to be monogamous as we headed towards marriage. He was fine with it. I don't feel badly that we did experiment together, openly before marriage, nor does he. Ironically, I really prefer a monogamous relationship. And, yes, I am aware of how that sounds coming from a WW.

I have little/no doubt that your H believes your account of the sex HO, and what you said above is probably exhibit A in that. He's actually seen you engage in the "forbidden" sex, been a part of it himself, and knows what you're like with other men. Also, you, IIRC, didn't go "full porn star" with the AP and/or deny your H much in bed. So, I'd say your situation, while very illustrative, is also a bit outside the norm for your typical BH who's worried about this issue (IE, me).

Yes, I recognize that totally, Rideitout. I think I was just saying it in the midst of this because we continually try to fit WW into this box of "it must have been this or it must have been that". I know I don't represent all the women who have ever cheated, but I was just expressing I had no reason to lie. When people speak in absolutes I don't like it, because you always have people who don't fit within that absolute. And, it seems like certain people are harder to convince that the sex is likely on the spectrum of enjoyable.

I have said this 1000 times, I enjoyed the sex at the time. I don't know why it always seems like there are people here that are astounded when a WW says that, we all say that from my perspective. There was one who called it amazing the other day, but the reality of it is she had been deprived of sex in her relationship. Anytime you haven't had sex in a while and you get to, it's good. You've waited for it. That is of no illustration of her AP's abilities. Nor is it overly relevant. Personally, I could have great sex any time I wanted, it's not often (though it was in my first marriage) a thing wives are deprived of so the build up is not this thing that people imagine. At least not for me.

I would caution you on believing all websites, RIO, some are pushing content for advertising dollars. People like reading about illicit sex, if the stories were boring no one would go to the site and they would lose their advertisers.