SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Like I said previously, it's one thing her lying to you, but it's a different beast the lies you're telling yourself.

At this juncture there should be NO doubt that she had sex with this guy. You know it and everyone following your story knows it.

Her not giving you her phone to do a recovery should tell you EVERYTHING.

Guarantee she does NOT follow through on taking a polygraph (if she ever agrees to it and you demand she has to do it in order to even consider R).

We get this sucks and how painful this all is.

We understand you just want this nightmare to go away.

We get the desire to hold on to the hopium pipe.

We also understand the option of just rugsweeping all of this.

That said you have the proof you need RIGHT NOW how far it's gone. You want more proof ok fine. Make her take the polygraph (don't ask or suggest). She declines there's your answer.

At the end of the day, how you handle all of this (what you do and DON'T do) will determine if you can ever get to where you're wanting to get to and I would think that's to a place of peace.

I know you want to do everything possible to keep your family in tact, but my friend, if you don't demand she take the polygraph to clear her because as of right now she is GUILTY given the evidence you currently have (not kissing but sex), then you may rugsweep this and keep your family together but you WILL BE TORMENTED EVERY SINGLE DAY MOVING FORWARD because you'll know in your heart and your soul that she was guilty and she continued to look you in the eyes and lie to you and you did nothing.

It will eat at you EVERY.SINGLE.DAY!!

The regrets in life aren't the things we do but the things we did NOT do.

You're at the fork in the road.

Choose wisely.

Masters,

I can't remember so forgive my asking again if you've already addressed this: Have you moved forward to VAR her?

Without a VAR -- including a VAR you keep on your person to protect you from false charges of DV and the like -- you're really flying blind here.

Would you at least consider a couple of VARs (including in her car) to get at the truth and to protect yourself?

Do the phone data recovery without her knowing so she doesn’t do a factory reset.

There is more to it.

How are you doing?

Look after yourself and children.

Good luck.

Do the phone data recovery without her knowing so she doesn’t do a factory reset.

There is more to it.

This really says it all. There is zero trust in this relationship and she has done nothing to re-establish trust. Her words and tears are meaningless. Her actions say everything.

She should be bending over backwards to provide you with the phone, she should have read How To Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair and begun implementing steps from it immediately, should have gone out on her own for an STD test without being asked, should have already provided with a written narrative of the affair without you having to ask, should have volunteered on her own to take a polygraph (and yes, there are WW's on this very forum who have done just that, because they really wanted to show their husbands they got it).

So while your situation is unique to you, unfortunately your WW is not really that unique. She has said and done things word for word and action for action that are completely common and unremarkable.

While your WW actions are unremarkable, that doesn’t mean you are not suffering. Let’s make that clear. That statement is not meant to diminish what you are going through.

It’s like an ER doctor who sees an open fracture. It hurts. But the ER doctor has seen it 100 times before. He knows that by putting a long sleeve coat over it won’t solve the issue.

Oh and I agree with HellFire. When/if you come back and say “you were right”, there will be no “I told you so”.

You are welcome to post as many times as you need.

Why do you think all the posters are here on SI? Not to be right. We just want to help newly Betrayed. Because, we’ve been through this and it sucks.

While your WW actions are unremarkable, that doesn’t mean you are not suffering. Let’s make that clear. That statement is not meant to diminish what you are going through.

Exactly right. It's one of the worst things that can happen to a person in their lifetime. It's one of those drive you to your knees moments. We've all been through it and are still going through it.

I'm three years out from D-Day and if you read my threads, you'll see I am struggling mightily with a powerful feeling of ambivalence and limbo. I am on the horns of a dilemma, and I can't seem to get myself off those horns one way or another. Largely, this is because I FAILED to take some of the actions we've recommended here. I did some things right, but I let too much slide and allowed rugsweeping.

I can't guarantee I'd be in a better place now if I'd acted more decisively three years ago. But the likelihood is high that I would be better off.

I just don't want to see another BH headed down this path. The "package" I outlined at the beginning of this thread and continue to advocate for here is not a panacea, it's simply a prerequisite to get you out of infidelity.

What you do from there depends on so many other factors, but a good outcome could be that it moves your wife off high center, shakes up her fantasy and makes her move toward you with real remorse and empathy. If that happens, you can RECONCILE.

But the way this is headed now makes me quite worried about the outcome.

With all due respect, Masters, you’re heading for disaster.

This is a train wreck in the making.

I fucking hate it when we have to tell people “we told you so”.

Good luck, dude. I hope things work out for you. We all want you to be happy. But you’re doing some major rug sweeping.

For fuck’s sake, this was committed by the VP of HR. He should be out of a job. I bet he’s sitting back thinking he’s invincible.

Your wife is lying. If this didn’t turn out to be a PA she’s the 0.01% who didn’t have sex in the situation they both found themselves in. At a hotel on a conference. Only kissing. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

You’re like Officer Barbrady from South Park yelling “nothing to see here, move alone folks”.

While this "may" have been your wifes first A, I'll bet that the VP or HR has had more than a few A.

An executive who has control over jobs and access to personnel files and a desire to fish off the company dock has had more than few side pieces like your WW IMO.

You owe it to the other employees and the their families to make tell this snakes boss what he does.

Masters2020

You're in a pretty fucked up state right now.

It's time to take control of the lies.

The lies your wife is telling you and the lies you're telling yourself.

You need the objective truth, as much of it as you can get.

In order to take control, just back off your wife, let her think things are settling down, and quietly go into investigation mode.

Get all of her logins to social media, email, iCloud etc. and go through them meticulously.

Recover the deleted messages from her phone with Fonelab. You can also look through her phone backups and iCloud backups using Fonelab. Do not tell her any of this is possible.

Put a VAR in her car and once it is ready tell her you plan on her taking a polygraph.

If you really want to create a complete net, sign up for a service that monitors her text messages and other communications on her phone.

There are versions of the everything for both iPhone and Android.

Make sure that you don't to tip her off. Just ask if you are considering investigating as I have detailed above and I can help you avoid phone alerts etc.

The key is to have all of your background research and data recovery done and your evidence-catching net in place, THEN put the pressure on her by exposing her boyfriend at work and to his wife, grilling her and insisting on a polygraph.

Either you'll find more evidence and traces of foul play, or she'll panic and reach out to her partners in crime.

If you do all of these things, if there is something else to know, something will shake loose.

Masters, it may help you to read a few other JFO threads to see how some other men in somewhat similar situations are dealing with the fallout of betrayal from their wives.

I would recommend these threads:

-https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=642458

-https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=642589

-https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=642336

-https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=642505

You’ll see differences and similarities. You’ll see how WW’s aren’t that special or unique and how they behave in astonishingly predictable ways and say the same thing over and over (after all, the English language only has so many words to express ideas so it’s not surprising that cheaters would fall back on the same catch phrases, but it’s always surprising to read). You will also see you aren’t alone. And you will see how betrayed husbands like you struggle with and also overcome their reluctance to confront and hold their wives truly accountable.

The last thread is good to read because it includes the additional toxic factor of being gaslit by his MIL in addition to his wife. The pressure must be very difficult indeed but he is moving forward with the non negotiables in the face of this.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:20 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

I appreciate the advice. I really do. Please don't take the things I say as negative or as being unappreciative.

Every situation is different. I've been with my wife for almost 10 years, married for 7. I know my wife and her tendencies, thoughts, etc. At least I thought I did until she had this affair. She's not going to put a DV complaint on me. She would have if she was going to. I'm not really interested in a VAR, as it's not going to tell me much. I guess if I hide it in her car I can learn a few things, but I'm not really interested. Honestly, what am I going to learn? I'm not going to make her take a polygraph, I just have no interest. I guess if I can't get anything off her phone, I might, so I can't say I won't.

From my knowledge, her affair is completely over, I'm 99.9% sure of it. She's turned a corner and, I think, has realized what a huge mistake this was. I think it will continue to hit her.

What I'm going to do is try to get the texts off her phone. I feel like that will tell me what else I need to know. I want to know if anything else went on. She denies it and swears to it. I asked what I would find and she claims just flirty stuff. I'm going to try to get it off her phone this week. I'm just trying to prepare myself if I'm able to get her messages back. I know I'm going to see stuff that is going to upset me. But, if I see that they exchanged nude pics (which she says didn't happen), had any level of sexual relations beyond kissing (which she says didn't happen), or anything else that she promised didn't happen, then I'm prepared to see a lawyer, file for separation, and walk away. If I see flirty stuff, which I know is the case, then I have to make a choice.

Truth is, I love her and our family. I'm not rugsweeping, as I've grilled her a million times. There are going to be nonnegotiable items if we decide to R. Realistically, if they had sex, I'm going to know if I get the text messages. I get anxiety just thinking about it.

I know you think I'm blind in this situation and not taking the proper steps. I appreciate your advice, but I'm trying to do what's best for me. If I come through this and decide a D is best, then so be it. If we try to R, then I'm going to have a separate conversation with her about what is expected going forward.

Right now I'm focused on trying to get the texts off her phone. I'm hoping that will be consistent with what she told me. If not, well, it's over.

I'm not rugsweeping, as I've grilled her a million times.

So without a way to positively verify what she is saying (poly), what good are the answers she gives?

You realize she could have done things, (with this OM or another that you are not aware of) and not reference them in whatever texts you recover?

No one thinks you're blind or a fool. Everyone rightly thinks you're in shock and in pain from one of the worst things that can happen to a fellow human being. You've been betrayed by the one person you thought you could reside absolute trust in above all others.

Hang in there, Masters.

You might consider having a VAR on your person just in case. They are very affordable and small. If you're not worried about a false DV charge, fine. But having a VAR would enable you to revisit conversations with her and double check the internal logic behind what she's telling you verbally. Then if you later decided to put it in her car, or somewhere else, you'd have it available.

Do press forward and get what you can from the phone before she tries to factory reset or go get another phone. In my opinion, your wife should be openly handing her phone over to you voluntarily rather than you having to sneak it -- but this is your call.

Regardless of whether it's over or not, you still have the situation at work to think about -- and the fact that her AP is the VP of HR at the company. That's an untenable situation, no matter how you slice it. I'm sorry. It really is. The only thing unique about this in your case is how egregious a violation of company policy it must be.

I understand your feeling of uniqueness and that you don't want to pursue a polygraph. You may change your mind so just keep in mind they are quite cheap in the long run and they are not hard to set up or carry out. I would urge you to really continue to consider one, as they are one of the few truly powerful tools for forcing the truth out into the open.

A polygraph is a sword slicing through Gordian's knot in one fell swoop, bypassing the elaborate prolonged drama of trickle truth and blameshifting and gaslighting.

I note you haven't mentioned whether she has given you a full written detailed narrative timeline of the affair. I would really urge to consider having her do this. You've had a lot of emotional and confusing verbal conversations. As far as I can tell, that's it. I just want to emphasize to you that having a verbal timeline really isn't going to cut it for you in the long run. And having her write it down will make her face up to the ugly reality of what she's done that face to face talks with you will not; plus it will make it harder for her to lie with a blank page staring her in the face.

For your own physical safety, I would also urge you to get a full STD/STI panel. There are plenty of anonymous clinics around and it's a quick thing to do for your own peace of mind. If she's had sex with him, which still seems extremely likely, then you're playing Russian roulette by not getting checked yourself. STD's can lie dormant, including serious ones, without showing symptoms -- and they can in fact be spread through deep kissing. I'm not trying to scare you, I just want to say in this particular regard you are not unique. If you're a human being, you're as susceptible to STD's as anyone else.

Finally, I don't know if you've taken our advice of having her read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda McDonald. This book can be read in under two hours. After she reads it, she should be willing to provide a written plan for how she will implement the book. This is a pretty easy, low-key non-negotiable and you'd really be missing the boat if you didn't at least take this step.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:04 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

As someone has previously posted - why hasn't she handed over her phone to you to take as long as you need to retrieve deleted texts? (fonelab, EaseUS etc, use a few different programs taking all the time you need) ... I also noticed jumping through the pages of this thread - it seems when you 180'd (whether intentional or not) that is when she "realized her mistake", stopped the blame-shifting and took ownership of her shitty choices.

Incidentally, Masters, I've been married almost 25 years. Dated for 3 years before that. I've been with my wife since I was 22 years old and she was 21. So almost three decades together. More of our lives together than without each other.

I thought I knew her intimately. Unfortunately, as all of us can attest, that confidence is misplaced. This really is who she is. It's a definitive part of her that she kept buried and secret from you for years.

If both you and she do not deal with that, you're in for a lot more heartbreak down the road. As I've said, there are WH's and WW's that seem to have an epiphany of metanoia (a "turning of the mind" and a transformation of the heart) and begin to have real remorse and empathy for their betrayed spouse and ownership for what they've done. Not to get too woo-woo here, but there are more neurons in the heart and gut than in the brain. It's almost as if the WS's who 'get it' undergo a full body transformation of the heart and mind together.

It really sounds like your wife is sad about what she's done, but she's stuck in the regret phase and is still protecting the cocoon of intimacy in the affair from you. I mean, my gosh, she's not even willing to give you unfettered access to her phone for data recovery! So I urge you not to lose focus here and really consider what you're dealing with here.

You've said you know your wife's thoughts and tendencies. Honestly, bluntly, you don't. You have to deal with this new person in front of you, stop wishing for the old wife you thought you had, and decide if this new person cuts it for you or not.

In other words, imagine she came to you 10+ years ago and said "Hi Masters, nice to meet you. My name is ______. We're going to get married, we're going to have beautiful kids, we're going to have a good life. Then seven years into our marriage, I'm going to cheat on you with the vice president of human relations for the company I work for. I'm going to lie to your face dozens, perhaps hundreds of times, about it. I'm going to bed him and insult your intelligence by claiming we just kissed. Then when you find out, I'm going to resent you, blame you, then beg you not to leave me after I've done the worst thing a woman can do to a man's heart. Would you still like to get married?"

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:26 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

Realistically, if they had sex, I'm going to know if I get the text messages.

I wouldn't count on this. A lot of times AP's text each other cryptically even with protected apps. You might be disappointed to find a lot of teenage level overuse of heart emojis, cryptic references to sunrise coffee and bad attempts at love poetry.

The verbal convos they have together are often more explicit and confirmatory -- which is why we keep recommending a VAR in her car at the very least.

Every situation is different. I've been with my wife for almost 10 years, married for 7.

Masters, I just realized something astonishing after reading these two sentences together and wanted to share it.

This timeline says even more that your situation is not especially unique. I guess I didn't put it together before, but your wife decided to conduct an affair in your 7th year of marriage.

Perhaps you've heard of the 7-year-itch? It's not a myth. There is actual quantitative statistical data to back it up, and it seems an especially prevalent problem among women. The 7 year mark (sometimes this seems to fluctuate to five years or less) is when partners (but especially women) let their eyes start to wander and start really chafing under the "restraints" of long-term monogamy. It wasn't the fairytale rom com they were promised and there are so many exciting men out there in the world!

They respond in three ways: They figure out what they need to do to move forward with their partner in happiness and contentment, they divorce, or they cheat.

Your wife chose door #3, and from what I can extrapolate from what you've told us, she chose to go through that door with a somewhat older man who is a "successful" executive (at least in her eyes).

Not unique at all.

So, you should sit your WW down and state you want a new marriage. That if she wants to reconcile it involves her being 100% honest.

It also means she spends every day trying to put your mind at ease.

As others have mentioned, if the text messages are what you want, then she should be trying to help you get those to prove her innocence. Maybe mention that to her.

Ask her to help you fix the marriage, which involves her healing the trust. It will never be 100% again, but 70% is surprisingly more than you would think.

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 4:24 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

WHAT WAS HER ANSWER TO HER AP TALKING ABOUT THE SUNRISE HE SAW FRPOM HER HOTEL ROOM IN DALLAS?

Masters

I gave you a short post a page or two ago.

The part you are missing is that you say you need to sneak her phone away from her.

If she won’t willingly hand it over right when asked, then THAT is the real issue here, no matter what is on the phone.

You shouldn’t have to snatch it, or give her fair warning.

“I’d like to see your phone can you hand it to me?”

“Sure my love, whatever you need, here it is”

“I’ll need it for a few hours”

“No problem, take all the time you need”

That’s how the conversation should go. If that’s not the case, then that is your real issue.